On the matter of Devil May Cry: Top Tiers justification

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Good afternoon, all. The Devil May Cry series has been a source of contention due to ratings being chosen because of Hideki Kamiya's statements. However, I have sought to show evidence that implies that there are other feats of similar magnitude within the series. Here are my findings:

The universe in which humans reside and the universe in which demons reside were once one and the same. The original universe was divided in two by Mundus, who is also referred to as "Pluto." Later, he changed his mind and decided to reunite the two universes under his rule, but he was defeated by Sparda.

Sparda not only defeated Mundus but also sealed the Demon world itself. The Temen Ni Gru and Hell Gates were built by humans after this event to gain access to the Demon World, for Sparda did not account for mischief on the part of the human world when he crafted the seal. He sealed most of these gates in his lifetime, but they would prove to be problematic for Dante and friends centuries later.

Mundus did create a universe during his battle with Dante; this is supported by what we see in-game, what we have heard from Kamiya, and the fact that Mundus created the monstrous Nightmare, which contains an "evil dimension" as well as this mirror universe which is not part of the Demon World. These spaces are of unspecified sizes, but they do make the other feats make more sense.

Lastly, Argosax was to fuse the two worlds, but I need some screenshots to prove it.

Final Tally:

Argosax, Dante, Mundus, and Sparda should receive a tier rating of "At least 3-A, likely 2-C." Other stats should be changed to reflect this. Nightmare contains an entire universe inside itself, but this does not necessarily equate to a similar attack potency.


I am aware that some of this information is not well-known; I welcome any questions anyone may have for me. The community may find it useful that I am in the process of constructing a blog series relating to the verse.

 

[Aparajita]

Good shit. It would be At Least 2-C, no, for merging 2 timelines together?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Aparajita

Thank you! As for your question, that is a very distinct possibility which I address in my third blog. Although, the more I think about it, I think the top tiers should be "At least 3-A, likely 2-C." The problem is that universe-fusing characters like Dormmamu have fourth-dimensional feats on a universal level, while the DMC top tiers, despite possibly being quite stronger, may not have been meddling with such things, hence the "At least 3-A."

And you're gonna just love some of the other things in those blogs...

 

[Dark649]

I'm not sure if the DMC manga is canon, but some of it are menzioned in the game. I recall that in the past we already discussed about Mundus merging the timelines, but here there are more informations.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Dark649

The manga is canon because it is amazingly consistent with the games and answers many questions DMC3 left unanswered; this is important because Capcom has no real policy on canon. I thought I once found an interview pertinent to the issue, but I neither can find it nor need it.

By the way, Xenogears is go, and I can take screenshots of it. Will compose blogs a month or two from now if the community favors my ludicrously long blogs and nothing comes up in my personal life.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

By the way, that remix is from a really great free fan album that is notoriously hard to track down. I could leave a link if that would be ok with staff.

 

[Dark649]

Thanks, i'm waiting from the other users response.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I guess I'll highlight it for you...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm positive that the DMC 3 manga isn't canon.

Furthermore, "Evil Dimension" and "Mirror Dimension" both mean nothing if we don't know their sizes.

 

[Aparajita]

I'm positive that the DMC 3 manga isn't canon.

Mmm, that's not actually right. Literally scenes from the Manga like Vergil's opening was literally adapted from the Manga.

Here it states the canon.


Devil May Cry's Classic Universe

Cano
List of Canon DMC works in chronological order of the series. Works under this category are known to be completely canon within the series. Take note that the list includes multiple types of media.

• Devil May Cry 3 (manga)[2] (unfinished canon)
• Devil May Cry 3 [3]
• Devil May Cry[3]
• Devil May Cry: The Animated Series[4]
• Devil May Cry 4[3]
• Devil May Cry 2[3]

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Matt

Your point about the sizes of the universes is true. However, they do make the feat before the fight with Mundus more consistent. I suppose it would behoove us all if I further investigated the matter of the manga's canonicity, though I am very certain that it is canon. Do note that Mundus's separating the universe is mentioned in the first game. By the way, be sure to check out that odd observation about absolute zero I mentioned on your wall, if you would. Thank you for your imput; I think there is enough evidence to enact changes, but I will do as you would like.

EDIT: Uh, ninja'd, I guess? Thank you, Aparajita! I'll still look into the matter if you like, Matt.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that Mundus' backstory feat is consistent with his Universe creation feat. But I don't think it is evidence for Low 2-C much less higher.

Mundus' feats are still a complete anomaly when compared to anything else in the Verse.

 

[Aparajita]

EDIT: Uh, ninja'd, I guess? Thank you, Aparajita! I'll still look into the matter if you like, Matt.

Description from DMC1 about the Mirror World.

The Mirror World is an unnamed location. It is a blurry, mirrored version of the real world accessed through a mirror in the Castellan's chambers. The Mirror World is not just reversed in structure, but even in some physics—in the sky, Dante can see rays of light returning to a crimson sun.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Matthew

I, too, think that the top tier's feats don't necessarily constitute 4-D power since they seemed to deal with only the (3-D) space of the universes in question; I even dedicated an entire section of my third blog to that matter! However, as you will see, this sort of thing is hardly unusual in the DMC-verse, and there is a convincing, yet unquantifiable case to be had in the favor of considerable 4-D power in the verse. Again, feel free to ask any questions you may have; I'll try to answer them in prompt fashion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am going to ask a question I was VERY relunctant to ask because it is very petty of me considering my stance over Bayonetta being downgraded, but I feel that it is a legit question.

Why is this not considered an outlier for Dante and I think Virgil? Similar to how it was deemed an outlier for Bayo and Balder? I just want a straightforward answer.

 

[Aparajita]

Why is this not considered an outlier for Dante and I think Virgil? Similar to how it was deemed an outlier for Bayo and Balder? I just want a straightforward answer.

Mmm, because the feat is literally the entire purpose of the entire game series?

Dante becomes more powerful than his father, Sparda in his Majin Form.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Dragon

Vergil doesn't scale at all. Dante got a powerup, and in DMC2 some time had passed since the other entries and Dante's base form got that powerful, too. Thank you for highlighting the thread, by the way! Also, I am interested in that verse as well, but it is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Aparajita Thank you. I forgot the Sparda part....

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Also, I thank you all for your imput, supportive and skeptical alike, but let us be very careful in our tone towards each other, please. Let us recall how uncivil discussion of this topic has been in the past; I hope my evidence can prevent such a thing from happening again here.

@Dragon

No problem! I am glad there is real discussion being had here, with both supportive and skeptical points being brought to the table.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Also, Sparda's feat of sealing an entire, full-sized universe must be discussed. It is a very strange thing indeed, and I spent a good deal of my blogs detailing it, but please ask me any questions the blog may not have answered. Keep in mind that the sealing technique is so potent, even base, no-Sparda Dante could seal a somewhat weakened "At least 3-A"-ish Mundus...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If this isn't considered an outlier, why are the 4-C feats in My Little Pony that are performed by Celestia every single day casually considered outliers?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

If this isn't considered an outlier, why are the 4-C feats in My Little Pony that are performed by Celestia every single day casually considered outliers?

because in every other situation there vastly below that

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You could use that argument for DMC as well, since aside from the Mundus' feats there are no Universal stuff, but you also use the argument that it is "fundamental" for the Verse's story.

Well, Celestia moving the sun is also fundamental for the lore, and plenty of characters can do it.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Matt

Because preventing invasions from the Demon World are a recurring theme in the series, and because Mundus splitting one universe into two whole ones is a major part of indisputable canon, to say nothing of Argosax (I swear I'll slog through hours of 17 FPS to get screenshots if I have to). Furthermore, the Manga feats. My blogs show that there are amazing hax feats that have yet to be brought to the forefront of attention. I know this is strange for a verse that has seemingly no planet-level feats (unless we count the Savior possibly containing a version of earth within itself, but I don't quite buy it and this is neither the time nor the place to discuss that), but if we were to treat all verses this way... what would we do with Undertale?

EDIT: Much this could be said for Castlevania's statistics, which you put good, hard work into being accepted. Also, I know nothing of MLP...

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Actually, I will say this of MLP: for all I know, that verse is consistently Tier 4, but those characters frequently struggle to contend with characters with no feats anywhere near that level of power. By the end of DMC2, Dante is making an absolute fool out of Argosax, whom lore suggests to be approximate to Mundus and was fusing the two main universes together. No one in that game gave Dante any trouble in a fair fight, and I address this in Part 2 of my blog series.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Follow

False equivalency again, both Discord and Tirek are meant to be >>> Celestia, who does the 4-C feats.

So again, the only thing I'm seeing here is that people are okay with a badass demon hunter being 3-A based on a couple feats immensely higher than anything else in the Verse, but are against cute ponies being 4-C based on a feat that's casually done by a character every single day over the course of 1000 years.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Matt

Hmm... interesting point about MLP. I think that could warrant a discussion in another thread, actually; sounds like a Tier 4 verse to me, anyway. But what I meant was that the people superior to Celestia didn't have those feats, which I appear to have mispoken on. I apologize for my mistake, and I did not mean to downplay there, especially since I have little knowledge on the verse.

However, Dante does not fight Mundus in base form - he is given a signifcant powerup. It isn't as if there are these 3-A guys running amok amongst the much weaker guys; these 3-A guys either rely on powerups they are reluctant to use, are protagonists who are extremely self-restrained and just, or are villains who have been sealed by the protagonists. It would also be good to address the Castlevania and Undertale examples, too.

EDIT: By the way, I do appreciate your well-founded, though incorrect, skepticism. I was hoping to start a civil, intelligent discussion like this. It will be good working with you in the future.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Castlevania and Undertale are both much more consistent than DMC.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Manga is canon, it contradicts nothing in the main game; in fact, some events were referenced in the main game "it's been a year since we last met" etc

Regarding the whole Mundus merging demon and human worlds, I don't think it's meant to be interpreted in that he would literally merge their space-time together, it was attained via leaking his demonic army out into the human world with the use of hell gates (the true hell gate wasn't crafted by humans afaik, will provide reference if requested). Hence why Sparda sealed it.

Now the thing with outliers, it's a good thing we can be more flexible with what we regard as anomalous when it comes to fictional feats. Allow me to demonstrate, you can have a character who performs eight feats; then performs one which exceeds the prior ones 1e50 times over. In normal circumstances I'd just laugh and regard it as anomalous, but when you add some context. Like, let's say, he gains a form which is implied to enhance his strength, speed and whatever exponentially. Then we just apply that incredible boost to that form exclusively.

Also, I (nor Gordon Freeman I think) can't speak on behalf of My Little Pony or whatever verse you feel was unfairly treated. I can only tell you of the current situation.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Thunderstorm's rolling in. Uh, a literal one, that is. I may need to leave at any moment. Until then, please come up with any questions or counterarguements you all may have for me. Thank you and have a good day!

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@AMM

True, true; thank you. However, the Temen Ni Gru was built by humans. See, the weird thing is, many characters (several demons and Dante with the Perfect Amulet) can cross between universes without the use of Hell Gates and the like, but they need Sparda's seal to be interfered with from the Human World to be able to do so. To use Doctor Who as an example, in Heart of Steel (10th Doctor), we learn that TARDISes can travel to other universes (as we saw in many 8th Doctor stories) but only with the permissions of the Time Lords, who added more "barriers" to the preexisting barriers between universes. After the fall of the Time Lords, travelling was largely infeasible (and then the Doctor's TARDIS broke down because it was in the wrong universe and it wasn't connected to Gallifrey's Eye of Harmony and blah blah blah, but that's besides the point). Similarly, there are many things in the DMC-verse that can cross universes but can't because of that seal. I talk about this in my blogs.

EDIT: Improved semantics just a bit.

@Matt

That does not address my actual arguement, and I fear we may be straying into subjective territory with the matter of consistency, which I have addressed already. On another note, please tell me if I come off as uncivil at any point; I know the medium (Internet forums) can give off the appearance of that, and I don't want to seem disrespectful or hurtful to anyone, especially since the points you brought up are fair and deserve to be addressed.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I'm blessed to be able discuss such things with people as smart and respectful as Aparajita, AMM, and Matthew. This is a much more sensible way to discuss the matter as opposed to the shouting matches one might expect from a less polite community. On another note, Matt, Aparajita is a MLP fan, and your statements about the MLP verse sounded compelling to me; perhaps you two could look into that matter after this?

 

[Brunout]

I don't know if it count as something, but... In the official guide, it says that Mundus and Dante's fight made the whole underworld start to collapse (but I dunno if It's true since the underworld still exists in later games)

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I'm unsure if you're using your point to prove that Mundus had to merge their space-times together? If so, then I do disagree since Sparda sealed the Demon World after the invasion instead of doing something pre-emptively. Allowing the possibility that Mundus could have leaked out his demon army through the true hell gate, rather than merging space-times.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@Brunout

The Bradygames guide, right? I check it to see if it has anything to add to the discussion, but at the moment, it seems the dissenting arguement is that these feats are inconsistent with the verse as a whole, which is not the case. I'll see about the guide and provide scans if necessary, but I don't think it'll change the course of our conversation very much. Thank you anyway!

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@AMM

I think it was all the "space" part but not necessarily the "time," though there is a good arguement to be had for the "time" part. You could be right about the Hell Gate, but keep in mind we the audience learn of the Hell Gates years after the Manga was published. Mundus was going to fuse the univeses together again, but Sparda stopped him before he could do so completely. Then there was nothing anyone in the Demon World could do until humanity went all Tower of Babel and built the Temen Ni Gru. The Hell Gates, if they were built by demons as you say, must have been built by the demons sometime after this.

See, the DMC series has a lengthy, interesting backstory, but it knows better than to show it to the audience all in a single exposition dump. The only downside is that it makes life a little bit harder for nerds like me.

EDIT: Has a general consensus on the matter been reached? I know we are to wait longer before changing the profiles, but I welcome any imput in the meantime, even sensible dissention akin to that which Matthew has graced us with. It is good that logical questions are being asked here.

EDIT 2: To be more specific, is there anything I still need to prove in order for the changes currently in the OP to be made?

 

[Aparajita]

You could use that argument for DMC as well, since aside from the Mundus' feats there are no Universal stuff, but you also use the argument that it is "fundamental" for the Verse's story.
Well, Celestia moving the sun is also fundamental for the lore, and plenty of characters can do it.

It's considered an outlier because Ant fought literally tooth and nail against the upgrade, and only consented to the upgrade being allowed because of "Hax unusable for combat" despite a majority of staff disagreeing, check my blog if you want to see that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Aparajita

Then Antvasima is letting his biased judgement overwrite reason and consensus.

I mean, the whole "Hax unusable for combat" argument makes no sense. Celestia moves the sun through telekinesis, which is an application of her magical power, the same magic she uses in the form of energy attacks in combat.

 

[Dark649]

That can also be applied to Yubel since it has 2-C via hax.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

actually the manga is canon only that it stopped due to reasons. But as AMM said it never contradict on the game itself while the novels did

Anyway this is really nice and it could likely 2-C via merging however it can be interpreted such as the army securing it but due to agrosax it may be more legit to make it 2-C or to lowball low 2-C if anyone wants to say they share the same space-time though that's likely not the case since time is different from each world