On the footnote for 18.

[SuperDragoon978]

It mentions that because 18 was speedblitzed by Katoplesa and Vegeta wasn't as proof that 18 fighting Ribrianne was an outlier. This is misleading. Katoplesa was in his speed form when he attacked 18. His speed form boosts his speed by 300x. This is Katoplesa's actual base form. So 18 being speedblitzed doesn't mean much unless Vegeta was shown fighting speed form Katoplesa as well, but he only fought power form Katoplesa.

 

[BlackMageVi]

Not to mention the excuse that her ankle was injured was the reason she was too slow to react.

 

[AKM sama]

We gonna ignore how she reacted like she was about to get stomped on by Katopesla? That clearly means she is not durable enough to endure his punches.

Ankle injury has nothing to do with overall durability and movement of hands to block the punch.

 

[BlackMageVi]

She was too slow because of her injury. That was the narrative. Flinching at an attack from an opponent whose power she has no reference for =/= her durability is automatically weaker than his AP.

Until we see Katopesla land a hit, it's a moot point.

 

[BlackMageVi]

I'd like to call into question the validity of the footnote entirely.

"The character hasn't gone through any training since the Android Saga" This is a claim with no sources or proof backing it as far as I'm aware. With no proof presented, why is this claim considered legitimate?

"has repeatedly been depicted as much inferior to her brother 17 and required rescuing multiple times in the Tournament" This isn't relevant to her power. She came to Goku's rescue and aide multiple times over the tournament. Is he weaker than her now? No. I don't think so.

"as well as being blitzed and overpowered by Base Katopesla, who was easily defeated by Base Vegeta even after multiplying his strength by x300." The moment he makes his move, he's stopped by 17. Flinching, when 18 hasn't been shown to be able to sense power levels, does not equal showings of her durability. Even disregarding that, he was not shown to overpower her. Period. Another baseless claim.

Additionally, she fought Ribrianne tier magical girls who also have 3-A classifications. What legitimacy is there to this footnote? There doesn't seem to be any whatsoever. Just a bunch of wild claims with no proof presented.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, the training stuff has to be proved by the positive side of claim. I guess that's how burden of proof works.

 

[Antvasima]

I will inform Matthew about this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

18 is not becoming 3-A. When will people understand what an Outlier is,

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Katopesla was depicted as much stronger than 18. She can sense Ki, she knew how strong he was, and it was stronger than her. Mere days of training is not enough. 18 is at best High 4-C.

Also an ankle wound has nothing to do with the durability of your face.

 

[RageComment]

DBS scaling is a mess as is. But it comes more from a narrative issue with the writers trying to make characters that were previously irrelevant, relevant again.

I do think it is quite a bit dishonest though to claim that any feat 18 gets is automatically an outlier.

The list of characters that are on this wiki as 3-A that 18 has fought against is not an insignificant number. But it at the same time, some peopel have brought up that it would likely be more reasonable to assume that Goku and Vegeta were holding back versus other characters rather than scale characters to them. For most fodder characters anyway.

One has to remember that there is a no kill rule. So no one is using 100% of their power unless they are weaker than the other character and know they won't kill their foe.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Matt

Katopesla was in his speed form when he attacked 18. Not like i agree with 3-A No. 18, but an in-depth rebuttal to close the matter would be better.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will write one when I get home from lunch.

But the fact that a Katopesla x300 times weaker than the one 18 was afraid to be punched by was stomped by Base Vegeta proves she isn't 3-A.

 

[RageComment]

It may be true that 18 isn't 3-A, but Katopesla being smacked around by Base Vegeta doesn't say anything about being 3-A or not. The 3-A rating comes from Goku vs Beerus and the point where Vegeta reached Goku's level. That was Months and years ago for the characters because of hyperbolic time training and the like. Vegeta could well be many times Universal in just his base.

Not to mention flinching doesn't really mean much in DBS. Characters flinch to attacks that are way below their level all the time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, personally it is the combination of that 18 defeated Ribrianne and withstood the black hole just as well as 17, that makes me think that she should be 3-A.

In addition, othervise we would likely start to rate the High 4-C characters as having a similar lifting strength to the 3-A characters, by scaling from the black hole calculation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Black Hole feat does not mean that 18 is 3-A. It's actually a High 4-C to 4-B feat.

And tired base Goku, 17 and 18 having similar lifting strength is honestly okay.

 

[RageComment]

Was the black hole feat even valid. Like it was not trying to spagettify them rather instead it seemed to just be gravity manipulation and pushing them down with a lot of weight.

 

[Kepekley23]

I think i agree with Antvasima.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

18 has just shown one 3-A feat and that is so far definitely an outlier. IF she shows more, I can consider. Until them, it's a no for me.

 

[Kepekley23]

No problem.

Anyway, i think Krillin flinched when a random Freeza grunt he later stomped lunged at him, so flinching may not be an indication of inferiority. 18 defeating Ribrianne seems to be her main, cornerstorne feat for the ToP. I think it's just a high-end feat and not an outlier. Bayonetta is listed as 72,000,000,000,000c for keeping up with Irenic, despite the fact that the next best speed feat in the franchise is not even 0.00000001% of that. This is a similar situation IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that we can wait with 18 then.

 

[Dark649]

We should wait for 18 and we should also wait before giving a lifting strength value to them because it would end up with a lot of requests of all High 4-C [18] to 3-A [Tired Goku] characters having the same lifting strength.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Kepekley23]

This should be closed then.

I also think we should make a Discussion Rule for this:

• Don't try to upgrade Android 18 to 3-A, as this was discussed several times already. We currently agree that we should wait for the Tournament of Power to end before making any revisions, since 18's feat is possibly an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that her page has a footnote about this. Hopefully that is enough.

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, like I said in that other thread, we should wait until 18 gets ringed out.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we close this thread?

 

[Kepekley23]

I think so.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah.

 

[Dark649]

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.