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Nothing, Nowhere, Not At All - Shadow Generations CRT Pt. 2

Everything looks good to me. I disagree with the Metal Overlord downgrade, but that's mostly because I think Perfect Chaos should be upgraded to 1-C. As long as that isn't accepted, I guess your downgrade works in principle.

Also, wasn't this supposed to include modern scaling for Mephiles and Biolizard? Are you still saving that for later?
 
Causalist said:
Everything looks good to me. I disagree with the Metal Overlord downgrade, but that's mostly because I think Perfect Chaos should be upgraded to 1-C. As long as that isn't accepted, I guess your downgrade works in principle.
Click to expand...
What about the Low 1-C argument i gave?

Causalist said:
Also, wasn't this supposed to include modern scaling for Mephiles and Biolizard? Are you still saving that for later?
Click to expand...
Biolizard has a key already
 
Yeah hindsight I disagree with the MO downgrade part but the rest Is still fine although I'm ginna be neutral on the age stuff to see how staff wants to take it
 
I'd still rather just downgrade Metal Overlord to 2-C tbh, even after reading through this I think my opinion on the matter is pretty locked in
 
ShakeResounding said:
Might wanna re-check that. It's under Adventure Shadow. "Both Adventure Shadow and Modern Shadow are capable of accessing Pets and Trails, as both are present in Sonic Speed Simulator."

Thanks for keeping me on my toes tho!
Click to expand...
I mean the actual equipment section is lacking Level-Up Items
 
I don't agree with the downgrade either, yeah. Regardless of its implications, I think having a level of honesty with the data given is top priority. Just makes complete sense given how MO should upscale from everything else before him. Like, if you want to disagree simply because it'd be a hassle to go in and fix things, sure I guess. But if there were a case to be made for 1-C stuff/any other tier really be made in the future for these characters, it'd have to be fixed anyway. It just feels like kicking the can down the road. As a great Master Wu once said "Why put off for tomorrow what could be done today?". Just makes logical sense to just get it over with before more data comes in and makes it even more of a daunting task.

That's just my take on the whole thing, though. I ain't a staff so what I disagree with doesn't really matter, but I found it important to give my opinion regardless.
 
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Btw I did everything except alter the wording of Shadow's MV resistance and the things Luke brought up. Having a lazy day I won't lie, so at worst I'll be editing Shadow further tomorrow morning/early afternoon.

Thank you all for the support, criticism, and feedback, everyone. Much appreciated.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Btw I did everything except alter the wording of Shadow's MV resistance and the things Luke brought up. Having a lazy day I won't lie, so at worst I'll be editing Shadow further tomorrow morning/early afternoon.

Thank you all for the support, criticism, and feedback, everyone. Much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Would you like me to add some equipment stuff in?
 
I also think Shadow's MV resistance isn't weaker than Sonic's. Shadow just had much more prolonged exposure to the virus and eventually got overwhelmed completely. Sonic would NOT be able to handle all of that, hence why he was having trouble running off the virus in the first place. It's not like Shadow could do the same after being completely surrounded and given the Bad Touch(tm) from all over to the point where resistance didn't even matter. (Also a BS way to write him out of the plot. Honestly, Shadow should have resisted, but it's neither here or there.)
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
I don't agree with the downgrade either, yeah. Regardless of its implications, I think having a level of honesty with the data given is top priority. Just makes complete sense given how MO should upscale from everything else before him. Like, if you want to disagree simply because it'd be a handle to go in and fix things, sure I guess. But if there were a case to be made for 1-C stuff/any other tier really be made in the future for these characters, it'd have to be fixed anyway. It just feels like kicking the can down the road. As a great Master Wu once said "Why put off for tomorrow what could be done today?". Just makes logical sense to just get it over with before more data comes in and makes it even more of a daunting task.

That's just my take on the whole thing, though. I ain't a staff so what I disagree with doesn't really matter, but I found it important to give my opinion regardless.
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While outside of memeing I’m not thrilled of base Modern cast being Tier 1, part of me wonders if the best option is to compromise by giving every relevant character a possibly, likely or solid Low 1-C rating.

Eggman’s statement of the Emeralds should put Metal Overlord above Maginaryworld stuff, Infinite’s 14,000,605 superiority statements should bare minimum put him above all base Sonic threats (AKA Void), and my opinion on Shadow’s Sonic > Metal Overlord statement hasn’t changed so I still believe base cast would scale to the former. Not to mention Master Overlord from IDW is notoriously staggered by some base cast attacks, and honestly it makes little sense for Master Overlord to be massively weaker than Metal Overlord based on everything we’re told about that form. On top of all that, considering Eggman is never shown to be able to use the Chaos Emeralds at higher capacities (at least from what I remember) and also never saw Sonic use anything beyond baseline before Advance (unless Perfect Chaos becomes 1-C), you could arguably scale all baseline Supers to Maginaryworld stuff as well depending on how the PC thread finishes.

That would give us up to three Low 1-C arguments just from the top of my head, which could give a partial or solid Low 1-C rating to both baseline Supers and Modern cast. I’d personally rather a possibly or likely Low 1-C rather than a solid one for a few reasons, but idk maybe something like that could work?
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
While outside of memeing I’m not thrilled of base Modern cast being Tier 1, part of me wonders if the best option is to compromise by giving every relevant character a possibly, likely or solid Low 1-C rating.

Eggman’s statement of the Emeralds should put Metal Overlord above Maginaryworld stuff, Infinite’s 14,000,605 superiority statements should bare minimum put him above all base Sonic threats (AKA Void), and my opinion on Shadow’s Sonic > Metal Overlord statement hasn’t changed so I still believe base cast would scale to the former. Not to mention Master Overlord from IDW is notoriously staggered by some base cast attacks, and honestly it makes little sense for Master Overlord to be massively weaker than Metal Overlord based on everything we’re told about that form. On top of all that, considering Eggman is never shown to be able to use the Chaos Emeralds at higher capacities (at least from what I remember) and also never saw Sonic use anything beyond baseline before Advance (unless Perfect Chaos becomes 1-C), you could arguably scale all baseline Supers to Maginaryworld stuff as well depending on how the PC thread finishes.

That would give us up to three Low 1-C arguments just from the top of my head, which could give a partial or solid Low 1-C rating to both baseline Supers and Modern cast. I’d personally rather a possibly or likely Low 1-C rather than a solid one for a few reasons, but idk maybe something like that could work?
Click to expand...
I agree with you with pretty much everything. I just think that mayhaps a "possibly 1-C" could work purely for certain characters naturally scaling to Sonic and co. However, that'd be really annoying to do that for pretty much every character. Methinks the path of least resistance just makes sense and to give em EITHER Low 1-C scaling above Void stuff or just straight 1-C and call it a day. Sure it's going to be annoying having to retroactively upscale everything given that new data, but may as well do it now rather than later.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
While outside of memeing I’m not thrilled of base Modern cast being Tier 1, part of me wonders if the best option is to compromise by giving every relevant character a possibly, likely or solid Low 1-C rating.

Eggman’s statement of the Emeralds should put Metal Overlord above Maginaryworld stuff, Infinite’s 14,000,605 superiority statements should bare minimum put him above all base Sonic threats (AKA Void), and my opinion on Shadow’s Sonic > Metal Overlord statement hasn’t changed so I still believe base cast would scale to the former. Not to mention Master Overlord from IDW is notoriously staggered by some base cast attacks, and honestly it makes little sense for Master Overlord to be massively weaker than Metal Overlord based on everything we’re told about that form. On top of all that, considering Eggman is never shown to be able to use the Chaos Emeralds at higher capacities (at least from what I remember) and also never saw Sonic use anything beyond baseline before Advance (unless Perfect Chaos becomes 1-C), you could arguably scale all baseline Supers to Maginaryworld stuff as well depending on how the PC thread finishes.

That would give us up to three Low 1-C arguments just from the top of my head, which could give a partial or solid Low 1-C rating to both baseline Supers and Modern cast. I’d personally rather a possibly or likely Low 1-C rather than a solid one for a few reasons, but idk maybe something like that could work?
Click to expand...
can we please, PLEASE not derail this into a "Base Cast tier 1" argument? MO not scalling to the base cast is like, THE MAIN POINT HERE, i won't accept people bringing something else just because they want to address it

MAKE ANOTHER THREAD, this one is already long as is, there is much to cover, and i don't want to have the debate derailed and then shifted into something so that people can come here, read it, think it is the objective all along and disagree, killing the original debate

now if you would like to argue with me on this, do so on my wall, i WILL ignore anyone who tries to push this forward in this thread, it is simply NOT the place for it
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Tier 1 Modern Base Cast is the definition of an outlier
Click to expand...
I don't believe so. Just feels like a natural progression. Besides if Infinite is stated to be the strongest Base Sonic villain at that time, we also gotta consider Base Sonic technically also fought Void. Even if it was a tricky situation, Base Sonic still technically fought him and Infinite would scale above that criteria. This isn't to make a thread of things, but just showing that it isn't out of the question. We already know Sonic characters just get stronger, so just feels like an evolution.

Take it or leave it, I guess. I won't say that you're wrong for thinking what you do.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Tier 1 Modern Base Cast is the definition of an outlier
Click to expand...
I mostly agree, which is why I’d prefer a partial rating, but I’m mainly just trying to spout out other potential options. I also don’t think it’s that crazy of a jump mechanically speaking given we’re talking about characters who are already scaling to 2 macrocosms. If Sonic cast was still 4-A or something though then I wouldn’t even suggest it lol

ZothythoTheNephalem said:
I agree with you with pretty much everything. I just think that mayhaps a "possibly 1-C" could work purely for certain characters naturally scaling to Sonic and co. However, that'd be really annoying to do that for pretty much every character. Methinks the path of least resistance just makes sense and to give em EITHER Low 1-C scaling above Void stuff or just straight 1-C and call it a day. Sure it's going to be annoying having to retroactively upscale everything given that new data, but may as well do it now rather than later.
Click to expand...
Ehhhhhh personally I heavily disagree with 1-C base Sonic.
 
Omegabronic said:
can we please, PLEASE not derail this into a "Base Cast tier 1" argument? MO not scalling to the base cast is like, THE MAIN POINT HERE, i won't accept people bringing something else just because they want to address it

MAKE ANOTHER THREAD, this one is already long as is, there is much to cover, and i don't want to have the debate derailed and then shifted into something so that people can come here, read it, think it is the objective all along and disagree, killing the original debate

now if you would like to argue with me on this, do so on my wall, i WILL ignore anyone who tries to push this forward in this thread, it is simply NOT the place for it
Click to expand...
Omega, I say this with absolute respect, but can you please calm down. It was in response to what I said and it was still on-topic. You lunge at people for deviating even slightly off-topic. It's such a kneejerk reaction for such a small problem. You gotta chill.
 
ZothythoTheNephalem said:
Omega, I say this with absolute respect, but can you please calm down. It was in response to what I said and it was still on-topic. You lunge at people for deviating even slightly off-topic. It's such a kneejerk reaction for such a small problem. You gotta chill.
Click to expand...
my dude, it is not a small problem, deviating the debate from 1 character scalling, which the argument revolves around the base cast NOT SCALLING, into somehow including statements of games not covered on the thread, is simply derailing, i do not accept to have my points blurred with other stuff not related to this thread just because "someone else talked, i have to answer" when.....no you don't? just talk on your walls about it

Do you really not see how "Infinite is said to be the strongest Sonic vilain" has NOTHING to do with "Metal Overlord doesn't scale to base Modern Cast"? i don't understand why this always happens, the very basis is that the Shadow that fought MO DOESN'T SCALE TO THE BASE CAST, why is this so hard to focus on? why is it SO HARD to simply not bring unrelated games and statements that propose something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what is currently proposed? you think base cast should be 1-C? cool, express this in the General Thread, where it won't get in the way of the current argument, else people will start to think my argument is for BASE CAST being tier 1, thus making it not happen at all due to me NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT and it being simply people misinterpreting the debate

now please PLEASE just don't answer me HERE, do so in the General thread if you want, i DO NOT WANT to debate this flamed topic for 10 pages AGAIN and make yet another thread not conclude cuz of it, it happened once, I REFUSE TO LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
I mostly agree, which is why I’d prefer a partial rating, but I’m mainly just trying to spout out other potential options. I also don’t think it’s that crazy of a jump mechanically speaking given we’re talking about characters who are already scaling to 2 macrocosms. If Sonic cast was still 4-A or something though then I wouldn’t even suggest it lol


Ehhhhhh personally I heavily disagree with 1-C base Sonic.
Click to expand...
It's fine to disagree. I just don't think it's as much of an outlier as it seems given the previous jumps in power and the enemies that were fought before. Doesn't seem out of the question and it's not like it changes a whole lot. I feel like "Outlier" is becoming a buzz word given what we've seen what this franchise does and realistic powerscaling behind it.

Either way, doesn't change my personal scaling anyway. Just feel like Metal Overlord should probably still keep his tier. At this point, feels like any new development is starting to become Outliers in the Sonic franchise.
 
Omegabronic said:
can we please, PLEASE not derail this into a "Base Cast tier 1" argument? MO not scalling to the base cast is like, THE MAIN POINT HERE, i won't accept people bringing something else just because they want to address it

MAKE ANOTHER THREAD, this one is already long as is, there is much to cover, and i don't want to have the debate derailed and then shifted into something so that people can come here, read it, think it is the objective all along and disagree, killing the original debate

now if you would like to argue with me on this, do so on my wall, i WILL ignore anyone who tries to push this forward in this thread, it is simply NOT the place for it
Click to expand...
Eh, I feel it’s somewhat relevant given some of us believe Sonic scaling to Metal goes against 1-C but also recognise the notable implications of Low 1-C.

IMO we should honestly turn this into a Metal Overlord dedicated thread that goes over every possible way we can reconcile it, and then move the rest of the proposals to a new thread. This has been a controversial topic for months now and it’s taking up all the spotlight.
 
I mean, I think I've made myself pretty clear on Metal Overlord specifically. The most logical, consistent option is to downgrade Metal Overlord to 2-C. Precioustone stuff is iffy, Shadow objectively fought him in his incomplete state, and the counter of "the Sonic statement shouldn't be taken seriously because Metal Sonic has surpassed Sonic before" is an awful defense considering not only is Shadow talking about the Metal Overlord he sees here compared to the then current Sonic (not previous instances of Metal Sonic surpassing Sonic), but also that this is Metal Overlord of the past, not the current Metal Sonic
 
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Ghengiroo115 said:
Eh, I feel it’s somewhat relevant given some of us believe Sonic scaling to Metal goes against 1-C but also recognise the notable implications of Low 1-C.

IMO we should honestly turn this into a Metal Overlord dedicated thread that goes over every possible way we can take it, and then move the rest of the proposals to a new thread. This has been a controversial topic for months now and it’s taking up all the spotlight.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure there was already a thread for that?

Either way, I said what I had to. Don't wanna make people mad by talking more about it, I suppose.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Eh, I feel it’s somewhat relevant given some of us believe Sonic scaling to Metal goes against 1-C but also recognise the notable implications of Low 1-C.

IMO we should honestly turn this into a Metal Overlord dedicated thread that goes over every possible way we can reconcile it, and then move the rest of the proposals to a new thread. This has been a controversial topic for months now and it’s taking up all the spotlight.
Click to expand...
This also doesn't make sense because the other proposals are being pretty unanimously agreed on tbh
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Eh, I feel it’s somewhat relevant given some of us believe Sonic scaling to Metal goes against 1-C but also recognise the notable implications of Low 1-C.

IMO we should honestly turn this into a Metal Overlord dedicated thread that goes over every possible way we can reconcile it, and then move the rest of the proposals to a new thread. This has been a controversial topic for months now and it’s taking up all the spotlight.
Click to expand...
.....no, it isn't taking the spotlight, DO NOT FORCE A THREAD TO BECOMING SOMETHING IT ISN'T, there are no implications in MO's rating since he DOESN'T SCALE TO THE BASE CAST AT ALL, seriously, stop answering me here in this thread about it, if you want to make a MO thread, message me in the a direct message and we will talk, GOD
 
CloverDragon03 said:
an awful defense considering not only is Shadow talking about here and now, but also that this is Metal Overlord of the past, not the current Metal Sonic
Click to expand...
Why is he comparing someone from the past to someone from the future? When the future version of the former already kept up and surpassed the latter?
This doesn't make anysense and holds zero meaning, if anything, Omega's explanation makes perfect sense
 
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