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Because this is the Metal Overlord of the past...?
He's talking about the strength that this Metal Overlord is exhibiting
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Nothing, Nowhere, Not At All - Metal Overlord Generations
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
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He's talking about the strength that this Metal Overlord is exhibiting
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Seriously, the downgrade still makes no sense because we are assuming that the super forms have a base power... when that has never been true, the super forms are the maximum power of the emeralds, if not, there would be no examples of characters with an aura of using the power of emeralds.
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It isn't, it is......a very blatant power superiority statement
Which is still stronger than his base state and has no scalling outside of fighting Metal Overlord......as pointed by Shake, me and Chariot, Sonic beating Shadow was merely cuz he trew the fight and refused to use the Doom Powers at all, thus not mattering at all for the scalling chain
And yet he personally saw Metal be equal and surpass Sonic multiple times at this point........yet his past version couldn't ever reach his "level"? if we assume "level" means "power" then Shadow is wrong and lying as.....Metal factually DID catch up and surpassed Sonic, multiple times, by this point, heck, in Heroes itself he did that with a plan of his own and his own work, so the only way to say this to make sense is to somehow make it so that Metal grew to Sonic's level yet is inferior to him in power... which is circular scalling that has no logic
now, as we don't have anything saying it IS refering to power(saying it does is an illogical assumption) we can certainly say it is referring to something else, as "level" is a vague term that can be mean multiple things, specially in the way Shadow says it
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That's just factually wrong. Not gonna comment on this thread, but I had to point this out. That a Super Form is not the maximum power of the Emeralds. That depends on your proficiency, and how much power you are wanting to tap into (We know based on Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic and Blaze can control how much power they use as they state they will both need to use their max power to stand a chance against Egg Wizard). Other characters using them for amps instead of going Super isn't evidence of Super Forms = Chaos Emerald's full power.
Anyways, just upscale Master Overlord from the best feat Super Forms had at the time. Game came out in 2003 IIRC. What was the best feat for Super Forms at the time?
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I think that'd be 2-C, afaik no games came out with Tier 1 feats for the Emeralds until 06
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Amplified Shadow was shown to make effort beating MO while an amplified chaos spear was implied to be able to defeat Sonic back then + Why would MO even care when he never faced that Sonic + why would he care again if Modern Metal already kept up with Sonic, Shadow explicitly said "You will never reach his level" or something which is wrong given the entire lore + that wouldn't even be the case when this Metal shares the same accelerated developpment and RE as Sonic. It would make perfect Sense if we don't take it as face value and admit that Shadow was teasing him, implying that Sonic’s strength is derived from his natural abilities and determination, whereas Metal Sonic’s power is artificial and stolen, a product of imitation rather than genuine growth.
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false, because we know that Trip has no experience with super forms, and she obtained a super transformation despite that, plus again, we would be ignoring that there are golden auras, those that are not super forms, but do use the power of the emeralds (as with Neo Metal Sonic using the 7 emeralds and having a Golden Aura in SSS) or Metal Sonic in Mania Adventures having a golden aura with the emeralds.
if the power of the super forms varies, then we should not have the auras at all, the power variation in the emeralds are the "you get a aura, or you get a super form"it is not the "super form varying in power"
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What's the 2-C feat?
Ghengiroo115
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I’ve already said before that I hardly care about this whole Metal Overlord debate. All I’m doing is throwing out potential solutions for people to chew on and you’re getting mad because you’ve somehow convinced yourself that I’m derailing.
Also, no matter what you think of the “never reach his level” statement, you can’t ignore that multiple people think it’s valid or notable. As long as that statement is a part of this discussion, I’m allowed to bring up anything involving base cast that relates to the Metal Overlord debate.
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Because the idea Shadow is amped by using Doom Surf is hard to believe. People just see it as Base Shadow beating Overlord thus upscaling. And honestly we're in the era of upscaling everything from everyone in Sonic debates for some reason.
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Ah well nvm I forgot that the 2-C feat comes from Sonic Rush
Ironically the best feat from before Heroes's release wasn't even from the Emeralds, it was from the Final Egg Blaster, which is 4-A. I guess if you wanna count Emerl with the FEB + Emeralds that'd be 3-C, but I don't think Metal Overlord should reasonably be anywhere below 2-C
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I said nothing about Trip, and needing proficiency/experience to use a Super Form. Don't strawman my argument. I said you need proficiency to use more power from the Super Forms. Otherwise we wouldn't have cases of some Super Forms being stronger than others.
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Phantom King scaling.
Anywyas I still suport a full downgrade for Metal Overlord and this mess of a discussion strenghtens my belief.
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If you don't think he should be below 2-C, I don't think you're sticking with your guns. You believe character's should scale to their feats. So I'd say for consistency sake, just scale him to whatever the best feats Emeralds did at the time are (Also Mania has a Low 2-C feat. He could scale off of that).
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I feel like lots of people are ignoring Omega's points. Metal Overlord should be Low 1-C bare minimum given superiority statements from Eggman.
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No, I just don't think they stand. Please don't assume people are ignoring just because they disagree
Real talk the reason he's not below 2-C has nothing to do with the Emeralds, it's because of the Shadow fight itself because Shadow in that time is 2-C
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like for example?
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Super Sonic being stronger when fighting the Mother Wisp as opposed to, say, Solaris
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I suppose so. But you could argue MO has Sonic's AD, which would allow him to combat Shadow. But I won't talk much more about it. I don't wanna get tangled up in this.
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Super Sonic > Super Shadow & Super Silver despite Sonic being weaker than both of them in Base in that game (06). Also, a counter-argument to Super Forms being > Any other form you get from the Emeralds. Super Neo Metal Sonic is weaker than Master Overlord, and Master Overlord isn't a Super Form.
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That's not an example, because Sonic purified the mother wisps
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He can also scale to 2-C via scaling to base Shadow. The 2-C downgrade is the easiest option.
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I just wanna add that if you did wanna go that angle, the lowest you could go then would be 4-A, maybe 3-C. But personally I don't really agree with that angle
Eden_Warlock99
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Tell that to Biolizard.
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You don't think they stand for what reason? You're not explaining yourself.
Eggman says they would need a miracle to beat him and that the Emeralds might not be enough, even when he acknowledged them as granting unimaginable power, keeping in mind Sonic Advance takes place after Sonic Shuffle and Eggman was aware of the power of the Precioustone, going all the way there to claim it.
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Super shadow and Super silver could also damage Solaris, all three were stronger than Solaris, also Shadow had a emerald with him to fight Silver and Silver didn't use his telekinesis.
you know what power source he used?the Master emerald, also Perfect chaos is a super form, same goes for trip and gemerl
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I would personally just upscale him from the Low 2-C feat in Mania. But you could go that low, yeah.
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The Biolizard got a new key because he was verbatim stated to have undergone a new mutation. Metal Overlord doesn't have such a thing, so it would just apply to his existing key rather than a new one being made
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I never stated Super Shadow and Super Silver can't damage Solaris. Don't strawman my argument. If you wish to discuss it further, you can DM me. But I'm not going to participate here much longer.
Perfect Chaos, and Gemerl aren't Super Forms.
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I forgot about Mania lmao, yeah then nowhere lower than Low 2-C
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No they were not individually stronger than Solaris. The game goes as far as to suggest otherwise
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Because Shadow kinda nukes things, considering he himself is 2-C and he also believes the Metal Overlord he's currently fighting cannot beat the (at the time) current Sonic. Doom Surf doesn't seem to provide a substantial amp, going by what's shown. It's really when he "officially" gets Doom Wing that he gets majorly amped, because he is "complete" and all
And it's been attempted to explain why the Sonic quote doesn't hold up, but I never thought those reasons made sense either. It's really as simple as "Metal Overlord is inferior to Generations Base Sonic"
Eden_Warlock99
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new mutation are the arms, right? So the initial Biolizard would indeed just be the Adventures 2 Biolizard?
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What's the source for the Metal isn't on par with sonic anyway, I can't seem to find it in fight, does he only say it for a certain trigger?
also I really don't like these arguments from incredulity.
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Yeah, the thing is though that the fact that he mutated warrants the new key. This isn't the same Adventure 2 Biolizard
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It's a quote from Shadow in the Metal Overlord fight saying that if this is the best that he can do, he will never surpass Sonic (I unfortunately need someone else to get the source atm because I'mma be busy real soon)
Ghengiroo115
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Since I think we still currently accept Gens 3DS as canon (I know there’s a thread to change that though), the 2-C stuff would apply to it in general since Sonic fights an armless Biolizard chronologically after Shadow does.
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yes, they are super forms
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So how were they going to beat him if the three of them were weaker than Solaris? The only thing Solaris had was his temporal omnipresence and his immortality.
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