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Sorry to break it to you. They aren't.
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Nothing, Nowhere, Not At All - Metal Overlord Generations
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
- Start date
- Status
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By being skilled enough to individually be able to kill Solaris at a point in time. It's not like they aren't relative to him
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yes they are
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Aren't. You can DM me about it if you have evidence. I'm done here now tho.
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Low 1-C scalling via the reasoning Shake linked in the OP, please check
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If I were gonna get involved deeply in the thread, I would. But I'm done participating in it now. Don't worry about me voting.
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20:15
Doom Powers verbatim are said to make Shadow stronger, him saying that they make him "not on equal footing" against Sonic also supporting this as said in the OP
Answering on Mobile is so hard lol
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We also don't know by how much, really. It could really JUST be an "in the background" kind of power boost. Shadow almost using Doom Spear against Sonic seems like him not wanting to sneak attack Sonic with a new power he has considering the attack is just an upgraded Chaos Spear. Whether it would actually one-tap Sonic is up for debate. The apex of this strength is really just Doom Wing. It could very well be build-up. Either way, the power would definitely be varied or situational. I believe it to be situational, but that's just me.
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I will also mention, is the Ring Cap now virtually infinite with the canonicity of Sonic Speed Simulator?
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I spent like, 40m looking for the actual line in fight (watched a bunch of jap walkthroughs), and I can't find it. It must be a line that only plays if the fight drags on or under a specific condition? that or he doesn't say it in that fight, but I'm gonna trust the vid because it'd be weird that's the oddline out given I found the others. I will say though, the lines in the video are out of order even then. But.
"Sigh, with that level, you can’t measure up to him".
I don't really think that's a good means to discred it? Like is Shadow talking about Sonic's base? His peak? In general? He doesn't specify.
Like in the end, MO should still be upscaling that low 1-C slop.
If Sonic in base is above that, which I think is what the argument for that statement is, then ig he is? That ain't Metal's fault. If there exists a low 1-C thing, and he has statements that would implicate upscaling.
Alternatively the low 1-C shit is just wrong, and thus, he isn't low 1-C because the low 1-C stuff ain't even real to begin with.
That's really the only two options imo. Unless someone finds something else.
Though I will say, saying "shadow mightve not gotten that big a boost", doesn't work, it's conjecture, we know he DID get a boost, but how much, we don't know. Could be a lil, could be a lot, which is the problem.
Shadow is a nonfactor. His strength isn't an argument for, or against, MO, or anything really, he's an unknown variable.
Or the arguments suggesting it's minor because of what he got, like in the same vain, why would Shadow sprouting wings be a multiple infinite tier jump? It's just wings? Arguing his other buffs don't seem impressive isn't an argument either. End of the day, he's unknown, but the fact he did grow means it can't be used.
"Sigh, with that level, you can’t measure up to him".
I don't really think that's a good means to discred it? Like is Shadow talking about Sonic's base? His peak? In general? He doesn't specify.
Like in the end, MO should still be upscaling that low 1-C slop.
If Sonic in base is above that, which I think is what the argument for that statement is, then ig he is? That ain't Metal's fault. If there exists a low 1-C thing, and he has statements that would implicate upscaling.
Alternatively the low 1-C shit is just wrong, and thus, he isn't low 1-C because the low 1-C stuff ain't even real to begin with.
That's really the only two options imo. Unless someone finds something else.
Though I will say, saying "shadow mightve not gotten that big a boost", doesn't work, it's conjecture, we know he DID get a boost, but how much, we don't know. Could be a lil, could be a lot, which is the problem.
Shadow is a nonfactor. His strength isn't an argument for, or against, MO, or anything really, he's an unknown variable.
Or the arguments suggesting it's minor because of what he got, like in the same vain, why would Shadow sprouting wings be a multiple infinite tier jump? It's just wings? Arguing his other buffs don't seem impressive isn't an argument either. End of the day, he's unknown, but the fact he did grow means it can't be used.
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Yes. No limits. Countless rings.
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Didn't say so in the sandbox, so I was only wondering. Said 999 was max.
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What I was getting at is that I don't think Doom Surf would raise him to 1-C levels if 1-C Metal Overlord, the power boost, and Shadow being 2-C before getting Doom Powers is to be believed. So it's either Shadow was already at that comparable 1-C level in the first place or that sh*t just ain't real and they never were 1-C. However evidence suggest MO upscaling absolutely from the Preciousstones.
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Not how this works. That's an argument from incrudelity. Personally, I don't see why Shadow getting wings would make him Infinity x infinity times stronger, but that's what your argument would lead to.
I also don't see why turning into a squid is a buff, or reenacting Pokemon G/S, honestly only the chaos spear one comes off as something directly tied to stats, but that's just what it comes off as. What it comes off as, doesn't matter, at all. We know he got stronger, how much we don't know, but that unknown is exactly why it can't be used to argue this. Could be 1%, could be literally infinity times, we don't know.
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I'm on your side here. I don't understand it, either. Doom Wings, in game, DOES grant invincibility, but I think the only buff that we see in actuality is in the cutscene at the end of the game where Shadow gains that aura while in Doom Wing before and at the end of the Devil Doom fight(s).
Two of the Doom Powers feels more like abilities than buffs.
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Well, no, they do mention Shadow's been getting stronger iirc like early-mid game, just that he isn't peaked yet. So other buffs exist, it's just unquantifiable.
That or I'm tripping but pretty sure something along those lines was yapped.
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Even if true, if Shadow is 2-C (supposedly) and MO is 1-C, how would Doom Powers buff him by that much? It's why I don't buy into the downgrade. Just seems like Shadow already scaled.
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Idk, why did they buff him literally infinite times that?
The proposal is MO is Low 1-C.
By this logic, Shadow would have went from 2-C to 1-C via doom powers instead. Instantly, literally a gap INFINITELY larger, than the gap you just mentioned, two infinity jumps in a instant, solely because he got doom juice.
As said, this argument don't work, it's just a argumnt from disbelief, we know he got stronger, and it ain't like his ass doesn't ultimately bridge two infinite gaps same game off the same stuff. We don't know HOW much stronger he is, but the fact is he did get stronger so his base can't be used as a counter.
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I just wish we got a proper gauge of the increase if at all and even if not that, some actually accurate scaling for MO. The downgrade for MO just feels like the path of least resistance in spite of how he should absolutely upscale from Sonic Shuffle shit.
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What? If he "absolutely" scales, he absolutely scales?
The goal is to index stuff properly, the least amount of guesswork, conjecture, etc, is what we go with.
Going "He absolutely scales, but that's annoying so disagree" doesn't make sense? The problems comes from stuff other than him, if you take those as actual problems as opposed to like, just being the case, that isn't his fault.
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yeah, the whole point of the Doom Powers was making Shadow Stronger to that Doom could also get stronger, and then he would take over Shadow to become the "perfect being"
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In this case I'd massively prefer a Low 1-C, likely 1-C rating for MO and thus Doom Powers Shadow, there's an argument to be had for him scaling and him not scaling, even if I lean on one rather than the other hence the likely suggestion.
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I think possibly 1-C makes more sense under that avenue
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There's not much to really guess with if Eggman literally and heavily implies superiority to everything else in the Verse in Sonic Heroes when talking about not just Metal Madness, but also Metal Overlord. Just seems like an objective case of superiority. Thus, MO would JUST upscale from everything else previously at that point. That just makes sense. That's what I'm saying. I'm failing to see the problem here. Just really seems like nobody thought about the scaling chain in that way until recently. I'm not throwing fault at anyone.
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And that's fine too, as long as we aren't saying the scaling literally isn't there
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Potentially dumb question, but I just want to make sure about something: if MO and Doom Powers Shadow will have a Low 1-C, possibly 1-C rating, will Shadow have a full on 1-C rating when he's fully completed due to scaling to Black Doom?
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I wouldn't do 1-C, I'd just scale him off the advanced shit.
Shadow shouldn't be a factor at all, he's an unknown variable, if anything Shadow just scales off MO instead at that point in the game, and then caps at 1-C off Neo DD.
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So something like "Low 1-C initially, possibly 1-C when completed" would be what's said in Shadow's profile? I'm just trying to make sure that I am following with what it's being proposed, or how I'm following it anyway.
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For Shadow? Just rate his ass 1-C for doom juice, I doubt we're giving him a key for every stage, that's excessive and completely redundant. We don't even know how strong he is initially either, MO is like halfway.
Anything that scales off Shadow would need to have scaling noted elsewhere.
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That's fair, I'm just making sure I'm following the logic being presented at the moment. And I can understand why it'd be redundant to have a key for every stage Shadow gets a Doom Power since we don't know how much stronger he gets with each new ability as you said. So if that's how it's going to be handled then it's one I agree, thanks for answering my inquiries.
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From a power progression standpoint, I don’t actually mind Overlord being tier 1, he fights against Doom Shadow who is stronger than base Sonic, highlighting how Perfect Chaos is slightly below Metal Overlord off in-game showings. And if PC supposedly fought a tier 1 showing for the Chaos Emeralds based off Sonic Channel, then Overlord possessing Chaos data also being tier 1, would line up.
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Neutral for now.
Idk who did this. Shake and I agreed that this needs further discussing. We don't know why Biolizard is suddenly strong enough to keep up with Modern Shadow. The profile makes no mention of its mutation, and for all we know, it could be an outlier.
Also, I was hoping for a new note at the bottom of Timr Eater's profile to debunk the misconception that Shadow Generations nerfed him. That argument needs to perish forever. It i way too common for how blatantly wrong it is.
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I beg to differ
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He did get a modern key last thread, but it was removed because "people didn't agree to in the thread".
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Doom Shadow (complete) would straight up be 1-C via the arguments in the OP.
Anyways because of the sheer derailment of the thread, I suggest to move Overlord's downgrade to another thread. We're 5 pages in the CRT simply because people can't agree if he should be downgraded or not. At this point this discussion is going to bury the other parts of the thread.
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From what I'm gathering, Doom Shadow was not complete and was just stronger than his normal base when he fought MO.
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Yes, he was an unknown amount of times stronger. This is the basis to discredit Overlord losing to Shadow as an anti-feat.
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Then the whole Low 1-C, possibly 1-C thing is fine, since Super forms already vary and the only real argument for MO being 1-C is that he fought three of them at the same time(Though admittedly it is very hard to judge how serious Sonic and Crew are IIRC)
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