Normal Kirby upgrade (final try)

[The_real_cal_howard]

I doubt point 1 is true. All of DBS is scaled from one feat. Doesn't keep them from being 3-A.

2nd point. I see no way how that isn't 3-B. If it was consuming the universe at all, it would be 3-B.

Third point. Fair enough. I just went what was under her profile.

Point 4. You don't need pure destruction for a feat. He didn't even take over it. He corrupted it. And according to Kirby Wiki, the Mirror World is a whole universe.

Point 5. Please explain what's wrong with it. Seriously. GK cuts open a rift that clearly is the Another Dimension. The Lor is there. And there would be no way that would hurt Kirby if it was just a portal.

 

[Ryukama]

I don't know too much about the context of the other feats to determine them.

But if there's a wave of energy that is gradually destroying the universe, then a character manages to push back this energy with their own and momentarily stop it from destroying the universe, then I don't see why it wouldn't be a 3-B feat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

One feat and multiple statements. This is like saying Frieza fighting SSB Goku is an example of a supporting Tier 3 feat, but it's not. It's powerscaling to a another Tier 3 feat. Magolor has Tier 3 feats. Landia fighting Kirby is not a Tier 3 feat. It's powerscaling.

Kirby doesn't push back the entire wave. That's the problem. We see an extremely localized portion which he holds off for long enough to escape. Again, there's the fact that this is also right before Magolor in the same game.

For Point 4, the problem isn't that it isn't pure destruction. It's that Dark Mind didn't warp or manipulate the entire Mirror World at once. He only took over that parallel realm, and his best feats were, taking it at face value, warping the gravity and environment of a single planet.

Ahzek Ahrima can hurl pieces of the Warp, which is a higher dimensional space, at his enemies. Does this mean Ahriman and everyone who scales to him are Tier 1? Obviously not. Unless Galacta Knight literally threw an entire universe at Kirby, the feat is pretty trivial, as it's basic space-time manipulation on a very small scale.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

ALSo, more on Dark Mind, we only explore a small part of the place. Just because you explore a few planetoids of Good Egg galaxy doesn't make it not one.


Sorry if I'm coming off as rude.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

ALSo, more on Dark Mind, we only explore a small part of the place. Just because you explore a few planetoids of Good Egg galaxy doesn't make it not one.

Sorry if I'm coming off as rude.

You're not.

Though I already adressed this. He never warps or manipulates any of that area. He simply took over the Mirror World. We can't use that as a Universal display of power.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Statements of the same feat. If someone stole Beerus' power, then that person is tier 3. That's how we rate Lord Tirek. So Landia empowered by the Madter Crown is tier 3.

If he was able to affect that wave at all, it's still 3-B. That's how big 3-B is. Otherwise I could say that Frisk isn't 2-B because he only did minimal unflinching damage to Flowey. And this has happened throughout the entire game. Not just post Magolor.

Lore implies otherwise. Chara's feats top out at Low 2-C. Would that mean he's that? No,, because lore makes it higher. Same with Asriel.

Thing is, GK has never demonstrated time manipulation. He's not throwing localized space at Kirby. Because youre implying that he just sent a bit of space energy at Kirby. Which, judging by the hole, isn't nearly big enough to contain the Lor.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, statements of the same feat verifying said feat. It's not nearly the same as powerscaling without any further statements.

No, it's not. The wave itself isn't 3-B due to some property it inherently possesses. It's 3-B because it's large enough to gradually consume the universe. Affecting a very small portion of this wave is not automatically 3-B.

Lore doesn't imply anything like that. Lore never states he warped the entire parallel universe. Simply that he took it over, which is very, very different. Chara's feat is actually 2-B, not Low 2-C. If it was Low 2-C that's what they would be rated.

Space-time manipulation is not the same as time manipulation. Space and time manipulation are intertwined, and both are technically involved in the creation of portals to alternate universes or transporting localized pieces of space. There is absolutely nothing here that would imply GK shooting a literal universe out of his sword outside the most insane wank, which we cannot except. In fact, the most logical of all options would simply be him ripping open a portal to another dimension that hurts Kirby because game reasons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Statements are more about Landia and the Master Crown more than they are about Magolor. It's pretty obvious that Landia scales to Magolor, and Lor does stay intact about that.

That doesn't make sense. If I can make a 3-B being flinch, then it's 3-B. Again, we rate Frisk as 2-B for doing next to no damage to Flowey. And I'm okay with that.

Lore states he wanted to rule the Mirror World, so he corrupted it with his evil energy. I don't see how that isn't a feat like that. And Chara has demonstrated the ability to destroy whatever that scene represented. If it weren't for the words of Sans and Flowey, it would be Low 2-C.

Agreed about the spacetime thing. However, some would say the same thing about how we rate other verses. Like DB and Cell's statement. Heck. That isn't backed up by anything. And once again, I'm okay with it. Also, that reasoning makes no sense. You yourself said "because game."

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just for clarification if we're not gonna accept Dark Minds feat of posessing the Mirror World, then does that mean we need to downgrade, lets say, Zamasu who did basically the same thing and yet we have him rated as Low 2-C for it?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Landia has no universal statements, and the Master Crown's statements of allowing Magolor to "rule the universe" are only entertained because Magolor himself shows explicit power over another dimension on a massive scale.

That's not how it works. It would be the same as something pushing away one of your skin cells. You wouldn't take any notice. Frisk, on the other hand, inflicts actual damage to Flowey that appears on his health bar and causes him to grunt in minor pain and annoyance.

Again, corrupted does not mean he literally altered every last inch of the Mirror World to his liking, because nothing seems to suggest that. All we see is he took control over the world, not that he can freely manipulate it to his will. On the subject of Chara, the scene wouldn't be anything without the statements we're given, but that's because we'd have no idea what was being done. However, we get very clear cut statements of destruction and what is being destroyed, which is why the feat is what it is.

"Because game" is the entire thing most gameplay elements of the Kirbyverse run on. There's clearly a legitimate reason for it to hurt him in universe, but there is zero need for it to be explicitly explained during a game with very very little dialogue. Cell is rated 4-B because of multiple statements of him being able to destroy the Solar System, and him jumping from High 4-C to 4-B not being very far fetched. That is not the same as using the unsupported assumption of Galacta Knight shooting a literal universe out of his sword to support universal Kirby.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There's literally no way for Zamasu's feat to be less, as he fused with the timeline. It can't be less.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just for clarification if we're not gonna accept Dark Minds feat of posessing the Mirror World, then does that mean we need to downgrade, lets say, Zamasu who did basically the same thing and yet we have him rated as Low 2-C for it?

Dark Mind didn't possess the Mirror World. He just took it over. Zamasu literally became one with the timeline.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There's literally no way for Zamasu's feat to be less, as he fused with the timeline. It can't be less.

Im aware of that. But based off Azoth's statements Dark Mind doing the exact same thing to the Mirror World isnt acceptable due to Dark Mind not showing to manipulate it to his liking. Zamasu is literally in the same boat and we rate him as Low 2-C. Wouldnt Dark Mind be given the same treatment to an extent?

 

[Ryukama]

Well I thought if there's a being the size of a universe/capable of creating 3-B destruction, and a character is able to slightly push back, deal damage to, overpower the force of and stop right in the middle of one of its attacks, that would be a Tier 3 feat. Regardless of how very minor or insignificant the slight damage/overpowering is.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well I thought if there's a being the size of a universe/capable of creating 3-B destruction, and a character is able to slightly push back, deal damage to, overpower the force of and stop right in the middle of one of its attacks, that would be a Tier 3 feat. Regardless of how very minor or insignificant the slight damage/overpowering is.

This isn't a being and it isn't taking damage, though. Kirby's attacks have no effect in the long run, and he simply pushes a small portion of the wave back so that he can escape. If the wave was only composed of what is being pushed back, it would be Tier 9. Again, Kirby would be unfathomably small compared to the entirety of something that could cover the entire universe, and pushing back a tiny portion would not have an affect on the entire thing. It's quite literally the same as rating a character who smashes a small portion of ground as Planet level because they "managed to affect the Earth".

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy As I've said I'm not entirely aware of how exactly this feat is. However if that's the nature of what's happening then I guess you have a point.

Wouldn't the part Kirby's pushing back be a bit more than wall due the sky it's destroying in the background as well though? Of course not on a Tier 3 scale but higher than Tier 9.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ryu

Depends on if it's actually covering the things in the background and not just obscuring them. If it is, then yeah, higher than Tier 9 by a lot, but still not anywhere near 3-B.

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy yeah that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Landia was stated many times to have the power of the Madter Crown. If Landia had the feat and Magolor took the crown, this discussion wouldn't be happening. Vice versa should be true.

Sorry, but I doubt that. Doesn't seem to be anything like that in most cases. We don't even see where the thing begins and ends, and we know that it quickly destroys the universe once Magolor was gone. And your logic only works for your scenario if Kirby wasn't tier 3. And once again, the gap is massive. Massive enough that my Frisk and Flowey analogy still works even with your explanation. BecUsd doing 4 damage to a guy who has tens of thousands, if not more, of hp is less than the gap here. It makes much more sense that he'd push back a universe consuming curtain and be tier 3.

I know I'm going to sound like the worst debater ever not worthy of being staff by saying this, but there's no proof otherwise. If what you are saying applies to every verse, then we'd have far less people in every tier upwards of town level. Dark Mind doesn't even show up until the last minute. Also, Chara's feat is very definable in a game all about timelines. If it weren't for you, we'd have just stamped Low 2-C on it and be done. And the main statement that got the upgrade had nothing to do with Chara at all. Heck, overwriting timelines is a thing in UT anyway. The statements are not clear cut iirc, otherwise every debating site would rate them that high. And while I'm a firm supporter of 2-B UT, you're aware of the absurd low ends of the verse.

That's not true almost at all. Sure, suspending disbelief is a thing you have to do in most games, but to say "because game" for Kirby is absurd, no offense at all. Because there's explanations for everything, no matter how silly. And mine makes, again, no offense, more sense than yours. How else can Galacta Knight shoot a bunch of space, including the Lor Starcutter, at Kirby and Meta Knight. Also, Cell is 4-B because of 1 canon statement and a handful of non canon ones, and they don't even have a Magolor to legitimize it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, just going to say that out of the seven justifications for this massive upgrade, two were just scaling to an outlier, one was the outlier itself, another is from the same game as the major outlier and is fueled mainly by assumptions and incorrect ideas about something's size, another was already acknowledged to be incorrect, and the other two are both varying levels of suspect.

I do not believe this upgrade was warranted, especially with the current justification.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Cal

Landia not only has no feats on the level of Magolor, but also almost certainly didn't draw on its full power, as when Magolor did, it completely took over him. Magolor Soul isn't even Magolor, any more. This isn't even mentioning the fact that, had Landia been using the full extent of the Crown's power, Magolor would have no reason to think he could beat Kirby and co. while wearing it.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Us seeing Kirby push back a small part of the wave and barely escaping means we can safely say "Kirby pushed back a small part of the wave", not "Kirby pushed back the entire wave and is obviously Tier 3". Again, Frisk still actually hurts Flowey, and again, Flowey is not Tier 2 via size. Affecting a small portion of something that is at its tier via size does not make you that tier.

What? You have to prove that Dark Mind had complete control over the entire universe as opposed to just taking it over, because we only see the latter. You cannot say "We don't know that he didn't, so we can assume that he did". As for the Undertale thing, basing a tier on incomplete information does not mean it's the proper tier. UT's god tiers are not where they are because I said "they should be this strong". It's because I spent multiple paragraphs gathering and providing information to support my claims and did not rely on others to simply believe me about it. We will not assume Kirby to be Tier 3 simply because of the belief that he is without solid evidence.

Again, notice how I said "Because game" was shorthand for saying there's a legitimate reason, but the game doesn't bother to explain it? Because, again, ripping open a portal that objects come out of and there being an untold reason for it hurting Kirby is infinitely more logical that "Galacta Knight shot an entire universe out of his sword". Cell has a primary canon statement and multiple secondary canon ones. It's not like we're taking it from an anime mistranslation or a DBZ game. Again, it's a relatively small jump that makes sense in context. Not this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Azzy. Here's an analogy. Three beings are comparable in power because I'd say, a crystal. If one being was capable of destroying a universe, then by your logic they wouldn't be compatible. We'd be like Death Battle, and not powerscale ever. Again, still no offense.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azzy. Here's an analogy. Three beings are comparable in power because I'd say, a crystal. If one being was capable of destroying a universe, then by your logic they wouldn't be compatible. We'd be like Death Battle, and not powerscale ever. Again, still no offense.

Here's a better analogy. Three characters use the same crystal. One uses it, doesn't have many good feats, and remains himself. Another does the same. The third one draws on the full power of the crystal, has much, much better feats, and is very soon after corrupted and twisted into a new form.

We would not infer the first two characters used the same amount of power from the crystal, or that they directly scaled to the third character. In the case of Magolor, he was clearly trying to draw on quite a bit more of the Crown's power than Landia was.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

look, im pretty tired, and I'm hanging with my friend. Can we continue this conversation later?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You are under no obligation to respond if you are tired. Having a clear head and relaxing is more important.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

No Kirby upgrade thread is safe from Azathoth.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No Kirby upgrade thread is safe from Azathoth.

"I ******* hate Kirby", said Azathoth while sitting next to his Kirby plush and playing Triple Deluxe on his 3DS.

 

[Legion350]

Quickest upgrade then downgrade, for Kirby.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Azathoth makes sense. Is anybody willing to undo the upgrades to the Kirby pages?

 

[Ryukama]

I'm sorry to constantly be asking questions about this, but there was one more uncertainty I had real quick.

I understand the issue with size and portions and all of that, however in order to be capable of gradually destroying the universe, wouldn't this wave as a whole have to possess 3-B energy?

Like how a kamehameha wave that's universal isn't just 3-A in one corner then planet level in another part of the blast. The energy blast as a whole possesses 3-A power.

And also isn't this wave, kinda like a DB energy wave, a singular (for a lack of a better term) "unit?"

Like the entire wave is one, singular universe sized object. Because (even if we are never shown the entire wave itself being pushed back), then wouldn't pushing back that one part still indicate that the whole thing is getting pushed back? Unless this thing is split off into different parts or something.

Like if we see a video of someone pushing the front of a car (yet we don't see the entire car), that would indicate that the whole car is being pushed back. Not that he's only somehow pushing just the front of the care and not the whole car. Since the front and back are connected together like that.

Again I am just asking how exactly this works since I am not complete sure. Sorry to seem bothersome.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I remember, we only saw the local part of the wave be pushed backwards.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant I get that. However what I mean being is this entire wave connected like some massive object?

So even if we do not see the entirety of the wave being moved back, seeing that part of the wave moving indicates that the whole thing got pushed back.

Like again if we see someone pushing the front a car forward but not the entire car. We wouldn't say he only pushed that front as opposed to he pushed the entire car. Unless there are different parts of the wave or it isn't connected as a singular unit.

And again if this one wave of energy has the power to destroy the universe, shouldn't the entire wave be that powerful?

Like a kamehameha wave doesn't just have 3-A power to the left side and planet level to the right. The entire blast as a whole is 3-A in power.

Again I am just wondering. And these things may not be the case if the wave's properties are different than what I had mentioned.

 

[Ryukama]

What I mean is like for example,

In this pciture we see a man pushing a part of the car forward. But we can't see the entire car itself being pushed. We wouldn't say this man isn't pushing the whole car. And is somehow only pushing this tiny slither of the car we can see while the rest of the car stays where its at. Since it's one singular object, and not into multiple different parts.

Or when we see Goku pushing back this energy blast. We don't see the entirety of the blast within this shot, however him pushing back this one part of the blast would indicate he's pushing the whole thing back. Not that he's only pushing this portion we see of the blast while the rest of it stays in place.

As well as we wouldn't say that one part of the blast Goku is making direct contact with is Continent level, while the rest of the blast is 4-B. It'd be said that this entire wave of energy has 4-B power.

This is of course, if this wave has any similarities to the other two examples that I brought up. And if it doesn't work in some sort of different manner. Which is what I'm asking whether or not. My question basically is how this wave particularly works and if it's anything comparable to what I said above.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if it spans many galactic distances, I sincerely doubt that pushing back a small part can automatically be assumed to affect the entirety of the expansion.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant I suppose so.

 

[Dark649]

So, i'm willing to proceed with the downgrades.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I still think we should wait a bit longer to get Cal's final input since I still believe he has something to say about this whole mess.

Also, if we're uncertain if pushing back one part of the wave would/wouldnt affect the entire wave itself, couldnt we always just take out "At-Least" on Kirby's profile and put "Possibly 3-B to 3-A" to keep the possibility in but not outright confirming this as a tier 3 feat?

 

[Dark649]

Also, if we're uncertain if pushing back one part of the wave would/wouldnt affect the entire wave itself, couldnt we always just take out "At-Least" on Kirby's profile and put "Possibly 3-B to 3-A" to keep the possibility in but not outright confirming this as a tier 3 feat?

Sorry, but Azathoth confirmed they are outliers, i'm downgrading the verse by Ant request.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dark649 Thank you for the help.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Best part is that I woke up just in time to see me be unable to respond. Eh, I wouldnt have gotten anywhere anytime soon. At best, the 25th Anniversary next year will give something.