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Normal Kirby upgrade (final try)

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While I do agree with this, your fourth link (the one that goes with "is also capable of pushing back a gradual universe destroying wave. Yet Kirby managed to defeat her.") isn't working, at least on my computer. You might want to check that out.
 
I fixed it a few minutes ago. Anyway, so far this has gotten nigh unanimous support. Just waiting now for some more members to respond, and more time to pass.
 
PaChi2 said:
if this were dragon ball, it'd be accepted by now. but isnt this Kirby while using the special power up available in each game?
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If this was Dragon Ball, it wouldn't get accepted by 90% of people.


Anyway, upgrade is legit.
 
If this goes through I think the evidence for Another Dimension being a universe should be put in a note on the relevant pages.
 
The real cal howard said:
Actually, Dark Mind may be another tier 3 feat. He corrupted the Mirror World, which would've threatened Dream Land, F-Zamasu style. These two places are separate dimensions from each other, just like most mirror worlds.
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That would actually be a Low 2-C feat.

Also, Kirby fought both Master Hand and Crazy Hand in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror. Another Low 2-C feat, since it took place in a Kirby game despite involving Smash Bros. characters. I think it should be counted.
 
Galazy
In 'Another Dimension' from kirby their was mutiple galaxies swarming in the background (when riding on landia), which considers that it is a universe. Also in the battle between Kirby and Magolor you can see mutiple galaxies under kirbys feet, which also backs the fact how another dimension is an universe.
That dimension could of been a parralel universe to kirbys, or that kirbys dimension could have been a pocket dimension of Magolors.

confuseddotcom
 
Paleomario66 said:
Also, Kirby fought both Master Hand and Crazy Hand in Kirby & the Amazing Mirror. Another Low 2-C feat, since it took place in a Kirby game despite involving Smash Bros. characters. I think it should be counted.
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Master/Crazy Hand a crossover feat, making it non-canon. We don't count feats like those, especially when the universe doesn't end when Kirby defeats him.
 
That doesn't make it a canon, non-crossover feat. It is clearly much different from the original MH, and it has no relevance to the plot at all outside of his boss battle, and is in fact not even mentioned at all outside of it. Not to mention that the universe doesn't end when he dies, like the original Master Hand.

The feat's been discussed multiple times. It's not canon.
 
I agree with what has previously been said, having more feats on the higher scale, makes the higher feats more reasonable to me.
 
ArbitraryNumbers said:
That doesn't make it a canon, non-crossover feat. It is clearly much different from the original MH, and it has no relevance to the plot at all outside of his boss battle, and is in fact not even mentioned at all outside of it. Not to mention that the universe doesn't end when he dies, like the original Master Hand.

The feat's been discussed multiple times. It's not canon.
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It's not that different, since the tag-team attacks of Master Hand and Crazy Hand are similar to theirs in Super Smash Bros. I know he isn't really relevant to the plot, but the universe didn't end when he died because that wasn't HIS universe.
 
Sorry for bringing it up AGAIN, because I was busy, but I don't think that AD was ever refered to as a universe or anything. Just a dimension. And I still have yet to see any concrete proof of galaxies being in there. The Landia segment only has stars, unless you treat those very vague clouds of stars as galaxy.

From what I've seen, the only thing hinting at universal is the text mentioning that the whole universe needed Kirby to defeat Magolor.
 
Unless being referred to as a spacial one, dimension recurrently means a separate universe (except as in a pocket dimension) and that is typically how AD is treated. Also this doesn't seem to have much ambiguity in being a galaxy. Not to mention that this is only an extremely small portion of this area that we see, and far from the entire section.

I believe that saying AD is vastly smaller than an actual universe, despite nothing explicitly stating such, nothing showing that it is, the fact it's referred to as a separate dimension which in a large amount of stories means a universe, multiple galaxies visible in extremely insignificantly small portions of it, a supermassive black hole being visible and the fabric of the entire dimension collapsing as Azzy said. Then just calling the galaxies we can see star clouds really seems like stretching.

And I have countless Tier 3 feats I can go and downgrade if we're going to put every universe/galaxy under such scrutiny to make sure it's the size of our own.

To compromise though, I personally wouldn't mind treating AD as 3-B. But it depends on what others believe as well. Including Azzy who initially vouched for accepting it as a universe.
 
We can't start treating all mentions of "dimensions" as being outright universe sized unless proof. Look at Shinki, who created an alternate dimension, which has shown stars and a galaxy, and being stated to be infinite (Alongside her song calling her an infinite being), yet we still lowballs it 4-B. Yet here, we have except to just put 3-A and be done with it?

That could easily be a nebula, or a star cluster. It's only vaguely circular, and doesn't follow the same pattern galaxies does. Again, this is background stuff. FF isn't 4-A over stars being shown on an alternate dimension.
 
@Saikou When something is referred to as a universe, it is treated as being the size of our own unless it is explicitly stated or proven to be smaller. And a dimension, unless spacial or pocket, is usually something referred to as another universe.

I'm not certain about Shinki or the context of her case. But if her dimension explicitly shows multiple constellations and a galaxy, it shouldn't be treated as 4-B. One instance of us lowballing a feat to such drastic levels does not justify us doing so for other series.

Also show me a nebula that looks like this. Galaxies such as this one this one and this one have far greater resemblance to that Kirby object than a nebula does.

And I don't understand why using what we can see in the background can't be used to determine the size of a universe/dimension. Especially when that has in part been used to justify the size of DBS and SMG's universes.

But even then, within the story there is explictly shown/stated to be a supermassive black hole. Along with Magolor's death resulting in the tearing of the fabric of the dimension.

If people don't want agree with Azzy to treat Another Dimension as a universe I'm fine with that, but I believe it should be treated at least as 3-B.
 
It wasn't referred to as a universe however. And tons of characters creating dimensions aren't upgraded to 3-A/Low 2-C because of it. Touhou being just an example, but I'm sure there is plenty more.

A nebula or a star cluster can look like anything. And the pics you showed me are circles on an angle, Kirby's isn't even a good circle.

These are real universes, but in the case of an Alternate Dimension being created, it is usually treated as being decorations unless proof. Don't ask me why, I'm not the one doing the rules.

It wasn't explicitly shown to have a supermassive blackhole. I just watched footage of the stage, and I didn't see anything ressembling it. Even then, it would only be "it looks like a supermassive black hole, I guess there is a galaxy in there", when it could just be a big black hole. Which likely wouldn't be accurately represented anyway but whatever.
 
It's not that different, since the tag-team attacks of Master Hand and Crazy Hand are similar to theirs in Super Smash Bros. I know he isn't really relevant to the plot, but the universe didn't end when he died because that wasn't HIS universe.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a non canon cameo appearance. You can't just claim that an obscure boss fight with no relevance to the plot whatsoever is anything more than a lighthearted reference to the Smash Bros series.

Like I said, it's been discussed multiple times and it's not gonna get accepted. Tier 2 Kirby isn't happening.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
We can't start treating all mentions of "dimensions" as being outright universe sized unless proof. Look at Shinki, who created an alternate dimension, which has shown stars and a galaxy, and being stated to be infinite (Alongside her song calling her an infinite being), yet we still lowballs it 4-B. Yet here, we have except to just put 3-A and be done with it?
That could easily be a nebula, or a star cluster. It's only vaguely circular, and doesn't follow the same pattern galaxies does. Again, this is background stuff. FF isn't 4-A over stars being shown on an alternate dimension.
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Two wrongs don't make a right. If Kirby should get the upgrade here, then anybody else who has a similar feat should be upgraded as well.
 
I don't understand why people say "Oh the stars in this pocket dimension x creates are just illusionary" yet the only proof they provide for that statement was an instance from a completely separate series.

I firmly believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going with what see if we see stars or galaxies in a pocket dimension or whatever. I'll say they're equivalent to their real life counterpart unless stated otherwise. If you read a cowboy comic book and saw something which looked remarkably similar to a snake and someone you know IRL says "oh that's not a snake. In fact, if it were a snake it's just illusionary. Just read this comic book where that is the case!" You'd give them a funny look.

tl;dr Occam's razor
 
@AN I could use the same excuse to justify this not being legit. If I'm not wrong, Ant and DontTalk both agreed on it. Isn't there a thread or something about it? There should be, since this is getting confusing.
 
@Saikou I showed you actual galaxies and compared their simularities to the object shown in Kirby. If you look up a "Nebula" or "Star Cluster" in Google Images you can clearly see things that look different than a galaxy. SCs, Nebulas and Galaxies aren't the same things after all.

There is also this object which shares many similarities with a spiral galaxy.

These objects shown look far closer to galaxies than anything. But if we're going to treat Kirby like this. I guess Dragon Ball's back at 4 galaxies. Those galaxies we could clearly see in the background were "just circles" and poorly drawn ones too. Plus a star cluster/nebula can look like anything, so we're just going to say that's what they were. Super Mario Galaxy is only 4-A now too. Being generous since that was a background. And what if those "stars" were also only moon sized?

Again, there is really nothing to suggest this dimension isn't a universe. But even going with what we see (which we have done for other series and with which I've provided multiple examples for) AD is 3-B. There is also what AMM has brought up.
 
Dragon Ball is a real and full universe, unlike this dimension here. There is a difference between proving the size of a universe and a dimension. Same for Mario. And characters also physically go to such Galaxies in Mario, while Goku searches for physical locations inside such galaxies IIRC.It isn't really the same. I can also pull out multiples counter examples to what you've shown. DMC (Before 3-A), Final Fantasy, and other stuff.
 
@Saikou how do you know Dragon Ball is a full and real universe? All we see are galaxies which (as we went over) are just poorly drawn circles no matter how similar they look to a galaxy. And despite how star clusters and nebulas aren't the same things as a galaxy, nor do they look like one. And have you seen the "galaxies" Mario physically goes to? They're tiny as heck. Unless you account for those poorly drawn circles in the background.

You can apply this logic to downgrade most universes, galaxies and Tier 3 feats.

And I'm fine with AD not being considered a universe. But in that case then we should at least go by what is explicitly shown. Which in this case has been multiple galaxies within what is an incredibly small portion of this dimension that Kirby and the gang physically flew past.

Also I'm not sure about your counter examples or their context. Especially due to the lack of elaboration. But my examples are more reasonable and like what AMM said isn't immediatley just assuming everything is fake and illusionary without any evidence.
 
FF was 4-A. We deemed it massively inconsistent though. Also, the argument here is similar to the one for denying 4-A Kirby i.e. aesthetics. Which is kinda set in stone now.

Also, the DMC thing had several inconsistencies to it being what we were trying to rate it as, until Kojima said "universe"

Also, I read Shinki's note. Situations are nothing alike. Legitimately the only similarity is that there's a universe. Not to menation she got beat up by people who are WAYY under her who, unlike Kirby, have no feats to support the scaling being legal.
 
Seeing as how this is an important thread regarding Kirby I think it might need to be moved to Staff Discussion if neccesary to make a final verdict (even though multiple staff members see this being okay but eh just a suggestion).
 
@Ryu There is less of a burden of proof with a universe being universe sized than a dimension created/destroyed by otherwise 4-A beings. For Mario, that's only if you assume that the stage played on is the whole galaxy. Which is clearly not the case on a lot of them.

You can also apply your logic to upgrade many characters to much higher level.

@Cal Implying that Kirby Verse, full of 5-B/A to 4-A feats isn't inconsistent with a sudden 3-B feat. Also if I'm not wrong, isn't Another Dimension just a Tunnel between Halcandra and Kirby's world?
 
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