Nightmare (DMC) upgrade

[LordNephalem]

Nightmare is currently at the 7-B tier by scalling from other characters like Griffon and Echidna. This also applies to the "familiar version" that we see in DMC5.

DMC1 Nightmare
However, chapter 8 of the manga Visions of V gives us more details about Nightmare's origin. According to it, Nightmare was created by Mundus in an attempt to create an overpowered demon, which he succeeded in doing, but ended up going too far.


"Its power could lay waste to the Demon World. The Demon Emperor feared it. So much that he bound and restrained that very power he supposedly sought."

Right here, we have two evidences for an upgrade: he has the power to "lay waste to the Demon World" (which this wiki accepts as being an entire universe) and be feared by Mundus, a 3-A / Low 2-C being. So Nightmare should have 2 keys, the 7-B version that has his full power restrained and the 3-A, possibly Low 2-C with his full power.

DMC5 Nightmare
But that's not only it, the Nightmare that we see in DMC5 should also be upgraded, as he's basically the same demon. It would also be very consistent, as he casually one-shots both Shadow and Griffo and is said by V to be his only chance against Urize. Of course, later we find out that Urizen is much more powerful than V could have know and Nightmare didn't stand a chance against him, but V didn't know that yet.

Finally, after defeating V's familiars in Mission 18, Dante talks to Griffon, who says this:

"But if you had even a little bit of trouble defeating us, imagine what Vergil can do to you"

Now, Dante (a tier 3 / 2 character) fighting 7-B is now a common thing in DMC. It has happened many, many times since DMC2. The canon explanation for this is that Dante is just messing around while being absurdly stronger than his enemy, that's why we don't give a tier 3 to every single boss fought by Dante in DMC2, DMC4 and DMC5. However, according to Griffon, Dante did have a little bit of trouble in this particular fight; of course he seems completely fine and even seems 100% ok to fight Vergil just minutes after that, but still, he did have just a little bit of difficulty. We can assume that this "little bit of trouble" is a reference to Nightmare.

If we consider Nightmare as an actual threat to Mundus, this would be pretty consistent, as DMC5 Dante is much stronger than Mundus and would probably have no trouble in beating him. It makes more sense than assuming that Dante had a bit of trouble in a fight with a bunch of 7-B demons.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't disagree with the logic but we already discussed the first portion in a past discussion thread. The statement about Nightmare being able to lay waste to the demon world could and would be shrugged off by itself since people will likely argue "lay waste" to mean something else and not outright destruction. Not to say there isn't other evidence to suggest Nightmare being 3-A, in fact it's the opposite, but all the evidence is depends on that one manga statement as of right now.

Interestingly enough, the manga statement about Nightmare being able to lay waste to the demon world and why Mundus restrained Nightmare was taken from a japanese DMC1 guidebook that has multiple definitive statements of Nightmare being 3-A and even high 3-A but no one has the scans because japanese only.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The first one is simple

"lay waste to the Demon world" =/= destroying the Demon world

The Mundus fears it part could be nightmare simply killing everyone and everything bar Mundus and some other Demon lord like Bolverk, Abigail, etc, which would force him to battle them on his own (which going by the fact that he had an army instead of taking the human world by his own hands seems to be plausible)

>However, according to Griffon, Dante did have a little bit of trouble in this particular fight

This is wrong tho, he literally tells Dante that "if he even had the little bit of trouble", not "he had a little bit of trouble"

As for the tier of this thing, Nightmare clearly is way stronger than any other Demon bar Demon gods/lords and it's tier is 7-B for a lack of better feats.

Like Dieno said, there is more but is in Japanese only so we can't use it at the moment

 

[LordNephalem]

Laying waste to the demon world would simply be considered further evidence for tier 3, that's all.

What you said about Mundus contradicts the manga, since its clearly stated that Mundus himself feared Nightmare and his power. Nothing suggests that he was simply afraid of Nightmare attacking his other servants.

And about Griffon's line, you're interpreting it in the wrong way. He says "But if you had even a little bit of trouble in defeating us, imagine what Vergil can do to you." Your interpretation would be ok if Griffon was imagining a scenario where Dante had trouble with them, but he isn't, he's stating a fact (Dante having a little bit of difficulty in fighting them) and comparing it with something else, which is his eventual fight with Vergil

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Laying waste to the demon world would simply be considered further evidence for tier 3, that's all.

Okay...?

>What you said about Mundus contradicts the manga, since its clearly stated that Mundus himself feared Nightmare and his power. Nothing suggests that he was simply afraid of Nightmare attacking his other servants.

That still doesn't support 3-A for Nightmare tho

>And about Griffon's line, you're interpreting it in the wrong way

There is literally only a way to interpret it and its very clear, if Dante HAD even a little bit of trouble with them he would get trashed by Vergil.

It never implies that Dante got worked out with them, not even a little bit of trouble.

I can't literally see how you misinterpreted it.

Another thing is, Nightmare is clearly superior to Nelo Angelo, its obvious that V would have thought that Nightmare would have been enough to deal with Urizen if he had the same strenght as his Nelo Angelo self.

 

[LordNephalem]

The fact that Mundus, a tier 3 being, feared Nightmare's power and had to restrain it because of such fear isn't evidence for Nightmare being a tier 3? I don't get how saying "This doesn't support 3-A for Nightmare" automatically invalidates the argument, but ok.


With your interpretation, Griffon's statement would have 0 meaning and 0 point. He's saying that Dante had a little bit of trouble in fighting them, so that he can imagine how his fight with Vergil, who is much stronger, is going to be. By interpreting it your way, Griffon is basically saying "You didn't have any trouble with us, but if you had, imagine what Vergil can do to you". The sentence would be pointless and random

 

[LordNephalem]

I even forgot to mention, that interpretation would only make sense if Griffon had said "Imagine what Vergil would do to you", which he didn't

 

[DarkGrath]

The statement about Nightmare being capable of destroying the demon world is incorrect, as far as I'm aware. When precisely translated, the statement more directly says that Nightmare could destabilise the demon world, in the sense of causing chaos and disorder rather than a literal destruction or destabilisation.

I'm still looking through the rest of this before forming a full opinion, but I just felt that part should be cleared up.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Dienomite22]

The statement about Nightmare being capable of destroying the demon world is incorrect, as far as I'm aware. When precisely translated, the statement more directly says that Nightmare could destabilise the demon world, in the sense of causing chaos and disorder rather than a literal destruction or destabilisation.

Who provided that translation? The most accurate one I've seen says otherwise.

 

[DarkGrath]

I heard that from Kepe when this was brought up on a previous thread (I think it was Kepe, at least). The argument that it was a literal destruction was based on a rougher translation, whereas a more accurate and direct translation of the kanji referred to it as destabilising in a societal sense.

 

[Dienomite22]

Kep translated the word "stability" from the raw manga panel and posted the meaning of it as a way to show the other interpretation of what it could possibly mean which isn't a contradiction, just another view that could be argued about the statement. But as discussed in that thread, the hierarchal interpretation doesn't make sense as Mundus created Nightmare for pure destruction, Mundus was stated to fear Nightmare's power and the Japanese guidebook statements indicating it's literal raw destruction.

Also, here is a reputable translator's translation of it: https://flower-in-the-moonlight.tumblr.com/post/186736235163.

This person has a quite alot of DMC related translations and provides improved translations over some given by the Visions of V manga translations as this person reads the raws first days before it's translated.

 

[DarkGrath]

I see. In that case I was most likely mistaken, my bad.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

^

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

There is still discussion going on, I think?

In any case we will contact you and any other mod if necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't think anything more needs to be discussed unless someone brings up something new or provide scans for the japanese guidebook. We're pretty much at the same place we were in the discussion thread.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I agree with this, honestly. Even if the "lay waste to the Demon World" translation is inaccurate, there's still the fact that Mundus feared Nightmare enough to trap him and keep him locked away. I see no reason why we should deny this.

 

[LordNephalem]

Bump

 

[LordNephalem]

Shouldn't this be applied? I don't think there are any arguments against an upgrade for Nightmare anymore

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached an agreement?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So far we are still the same, in case a conclusion is reached and it effects a profile we will contact a mod to edit it accordingly so don't worry

 

[LordNephalem]

Oh, ok. It's only that the arguments against the upgrade were answered and I don't think there's anything left to discuss. I mean, it's a pretty solid upgrade

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Experienced regular members who know how to edit properly can also handle it.

 

[LordNephalem]

Assuming that this eventually gets accepted, I believe Nightmare should have two keys in his original profile, "Full power" and "Restrained" : "At least Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (His power could lay waste to the Demon World, which is bigger than our universe. His power was feared by Mundus himself) | City level (Had his full power restrained, but could still fight with DMC1 Dante)"

As for his version in V's page: "At least Universe level, possibly Universe level+ (Shouldn't be weaker than his original counterpart. Gave DMC5 Dante a little bit of trouble in their fight, but still was ultimately defeated)"

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

He did not gave any trouble to Dante, again, how can you missinterpret the scene is beyond me as for this upgrade, the ONLY thing supporting it is Mundus fearing the power that could lay waste to the demon world which could be interpreted as destabilization or destruction.

But ok, let's assume it means raw destruction and he feared he will destroy the demon world, it is done in time? It is done by killing every single demon out there? Or did Mundus simply feared because it will destroy everything in the sense that there wasn't point of being king of a wasteland?

I'm completly against this.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I'm with Tony also because Mundus would have to restrict him against DMC1 Dante, if he wanted him dead he would only send him to where he was and shoot Dante but instead sent Trish?

 

[LordNephalem]

He did not gave any trouble to Dante, again, how can you missinterpret the scene is beyond me as for this upgrade, the ONLY thing supporting it is Mundus fearing the power that could lay waste to the demon world which could be interpreted as destabilization or destruction.
But ok, let's assume it means raw destruction and he feared he will destroy the demon world, it is done in time? It is done by killing every single demon out there? Or did Mundus simply feared because it will destroy everything in the sense that there wasn't point of being king of a wasteland?

I'm completly against this.

Griffon literally states that Dante had a little bit of trouble in defeating them, so you either assume that Dante had trouble with three 7-B demons or that he had a small difficulty with two that are 7-B and one that is 3-A

As for what you said about Mundus fearing him and laying waste to the Demon World, someone has already answered that in this thread, I don't see the point of repeating the same thing after it has already been answered

 

[Dienomite22]

Once again, the more accurate translation is "Fearing that its power might potentially destroy the Underworld, the Emperor had to physically restrain the power that he desired"

https://to-the-evening-star.tumblr.com/post/186736235163

Nightmare could probably get a 3-A key but the one Dante fought in DMC1 and 5 probably wouldn't scale.

Also, Griffon didn't state Dante had a little bit of trouble in defeating them, he was suggesting that IF Dante had a little bit of trouble defeating them then he wouldn't be a match for Vergil and we know it wouldn't make since for Dante to have trouble against Griffon and co if he defeated Fruitrizen.

In the up and coming month or two, I will hopefully get a copy of the Japanese guidebook that is widely said to have 3-A statements for Nightmare.

 

[LordNephalem]

Again, if Griffon meant that, he wouldn't use "can do" when talking about Vergil, since it wouldn't make sense grammatically. What he's saying is basically "Vergil is much more powerful than us, so knowing that you had even a little bit of trouble with us, imagine what he can do to you"

 

[Dienomite22]

Thats the thing, Griffon never states Dante had trouble against them, he said "But if you had even a little bit of trouble in defeating us, imagine what Vergil can do to you.", meaning he doesn't know if Dante had trouble fighting them or if they could even been considered a good fight for Dante, nothing concrete. Mundus' fear of Nightmare's power and V believing Nightmare could defeat Urizen are much better support than this.

 

[LordNephalem]

I agree with you in that last thing, but I really don't think that's what Griffon meant. The funny thing is that Griffon's original statement in Japanese might even be completely different, since apparently many of the dialogues in the game have slight problems in the English version

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

> V believing Nightmare could defeat Urizen are much better support than this.

I believe I already have my opinion in this, V believed Nightmare could defeat the Urizen he left behind, the Urizen that had the strength of Nelo Angelo not the Urizen that absorbed blood from the tree.

The Manga is crystal clear he knows they are ****** once he feels Urizen's power inside the tree

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Once again, the more accurate translation is "Fearing that its power might potentially destroy the Underworld, the Emperor had to physically restrain the power that he desired"

This is vague tho and can be interpreted in other ways and this is literally the only thing going for it

 

[Dienomite22]

Once again, the more accurate translation is "Fearing that its power might potentially destroy the Underworld, the Emperor had to physically restrain the power that he desired"

This is vague tho and can be interpreted in other ways and this is literally the only thing going for it

Not really. It directly states that Nightmare's power is what Mundus feared would potentially destroy the Underworld and he had to physically restrain said power. It isn't referring to destroying demons one by one but destroying the Underworld itself which I guess could also be interpreted as being done over time or in parts aswell if that is what you're saying but that interpretation in itself would require proof to hold I believe.

 

[Antvasima]

Has what was accepted here been applied yet?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Nothing has been accepted. Don't worry Ant, if something happens we will notify you or any staff member.

Also this is quite the upgrade of it somehow passes so we will need staff.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to ask the staff members listed in the Devil May Cry verse page, and the Knowledgeable Members List.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you done what I suggested? If there are none listed there, you can use the VS Battles Staff page to find some to ask instead.