New Tier Addition

[Cul0r]

I think it's not a good idea.

why

 

[Sera_EX]

You guys claim you don't want "haxless 10-Bs" on the site, yet are proposing for characters that are vastly weaker. I let lower dimensional ones slide because they are more integral to the dimensional aspect of the system. This however contradicts the complaints about haxless 10-Bs, who mind you, if this was accepted, would be untouchable by a Low 10-C. Please be a little more consistent with these standards.

Additionally: Do not say "well we just don't want to be flooded with a bunch of powerless human characters".

Because that is a completely different reason and one I agree with.

 

[KieranH10]

Why don't you think it's a good idea?

What about an alternative like this:

I do think that this would work as a tier, but I disagree with it being only characters with 0 Joules or whatnot. Like has been brought up, this is essentially impossible if you're 3-D, and would need actual evidence, which I doubt any verse actually gives, making it obsolete.

I believe Low 10-C should be closer to Jaftens proposal, with characters / entities who are artificial or negligible in most cases on a 3-D scale. This would be programs, viruses (Both computer viruses and biological viruses), and probably cell scale stuff.

However there's still the fact that programs and such, don't actually have energy. Sure, they are composed of electrons and such, but the electrons do not define the character. They still pose no threat to anything other than what is on their level. A cell has infinitely more of a chance of killing you with striking strength than a computer virus does, because it can actually affect and interact with you...
Due to this, these digital/artificial beings would be somewhere even lower, somewhere below the previously defined Low 10-C, but above 11-A, as they are still 3-D.
Perhaps High 11-A is in order too? Characters like this would include the likes of Programs, Computer Viruses, Drawings, Artwork, and more imo, as these all share the same traits of only being notable threats on their own level, but still exist on a 3-Dimensional Axis.

TL;DR: I think it should be along the lines of

• Low 10-C: Closer to what Jaften Proposed, however I'm not sure whether to draw the line at 1 Joule. This would include Cells, Biological Viruses, Bacteria, and anything actually capable of interacting with other 3-D objects.
• High 11-A (Or whatever it could be called): Digital/Artificial Beings such as Computer Viruses, Programs, Drawings, Paintings, etc. That cannot interact with the 3-D world around them as they're bound to their own world, but are still bound to the 3-D world. (If that makes sense...)

 

[BleedingPeach]

There's no need to make a new tier to say AP: Null. That's something that should be specified in the AP section on a profile.

 

[Cul0r]

You guys claim you don't want "haxless 10-Bs" on the site, yet are proposing for characters that are vastly weaker. I let lower dimensional ones slide because they are more integral to the dimensional aspect of the system. This however contradicts the complaints about haxless 10-Bs, who mind you, if this was accepted, would be untouchable by a Low 10-C. Please be a little more consistent with these standards.

i didn't complain about anything in any thread???? and i don't mind haxless 10-Bs I just don't want it to be some average dude with nothing special about him/her at all though.

There's no need to make a new tier to say AP: Null. That something that should be specified in the AP section on a profile.

Could be the (lowest number right after 0) joules to 1 joules.

 

[KieranH10]

Yeah tbf, you're kinda generalising people on this thread to those who mentioned they don't want Haxless 10-Bs.
But Haxless 10-Bs not being wanted wasn't because of power levels, it was because they generally don't make for interesting or noteworthy enough characters to be indexed. A 10-B with even a few abilities would still be more noteworthy than literally a regular human.

Stuff below humans are moreso worth indexing because their scale or dimensionality can often determine their character, and is what makes them interesting.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's nothing wrong with haxless 10-B's, just 10-B's with no super powers, combat skills, weapons, ect period. A non notable 10-B human where the only information is that they're just an average person who works at a boring white collar job has no right to have a profile here.

But I'm with Sera about the over extinctions between various 10-C separations. She has had problems with other 10-C profiles and not sure if she still does; though I still defended some for indexing verses such as Pikmin or Osmosis Jones. The High 11-A or Low 10-C tiers aren't even all that prominent enough to have specific tiers; and 10-C isn't even something with a bunch of profiles needed either. It's mostly just the niche verses centered around the tiny characters is where we even have all the 10-C's period. Making 10-C just a bare bones tier left with these separations.

 

[Cul0r]

I'm with Sera about the over extinctions between various 10-C separations. She has had problems with other 10-C profiles and not sure if she still does; though I still defended some for indexing verses such as Pikmin or Osmosis Jones. The High 11-A or Low 10-C tiers aren't even all that prominent enough to have specific tiers; and 10-C isn't even something with a bunch of profiles needed either. It's mostly just the niche verses centered around the tiny characters is where we even have all the 10-C's period. Making 10-C just a bare bones tier left with these separations.

Yeah, now I understand.

 

[Sera_EX]

@KieranH10 @Cul0r

It doesn't matter. That was the general consensus and said consensus is now reflective of the community. Every choice that is made definitively is a choice made by us collectively as a community. So I'm not generalizing here, "you/we" refers to the community as a whole, not any one group or individual.

 

[Cul0r]

Ok this makes alot more sense now, thank you for the clarification.

 

[Sera_EX]

I should also note that a tier shouldn't get a subtier just for AP. Every other tier has a durability equivalent, but what would you consider "zero durability"? Moreover, how many characters would have both 0 joules AP and 0 durability? Bleeding Peach's suggestion is far more plausible to just list the AP as "Null", and is similar to how we put "immobile" for the speed of characters who can't move or "N/A" for the lifting strength of characters with no limbs.

 

[KieranH10]

Fair enough. However I still believe that the Haxless 10-B stuff is still unrelated here.

I also agree that having a tier for 0 joules seems strange too, but I believe the ideas I presented are valid and could help split up tiers where needed moreso.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally, I think such a tier is not necessary. It has few characters, the tiering system is complete without it and isn't too noteworthy either.
I think keeping 0 joules as the bottom of 10-C makes sense. Just note it on the profile.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think there are any characters with an AP/Dura of 0 joules. They would not exist, I can't imagine any verse on the wiki writes something like that accurately, and in the case it's contradicted by feats (i.e. it exists without instantly dying) it wouldn't be able to be placed at that tier.

Wouldn't this would be like best for beings made of data like Gene, Rumble McSkirmish and GIFfany? These are like the only 10-Cs I could think of that could apply to this rating

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Beings made out of data are 10-C because they are the data; they're electricity flowing through computers. They have a joule output.

Evilswarm Virus is suitable for this tier since they can't deal any damage

I really don't think we should be giving every incorporeal being that doesn't create physical effects on the world a tier like this. It feels a lot more misleading than just giving them Unknown.

As mentioned in the tiering FAQ, even something of 1 dimension can have Joule output technically speaking, so this doesn't work at all

Why doesn't it work? Even higher-dimensional beings can have lower joule outputs than 3-dimensional beings. That doesn't ruin the tiering system. It just means that 11-A beings can't just being 2-dimensional beings that can have perfectly ordinary joule outputs, it means that they have to have a qualitative inferiority to reality. Any actual joule output would be a contradictory feat, and should be evaluated as such.

Perhaps High 11-A is in order too? Characters like this would include the likes of Programs, Computer Viruses, Drawings, Artwork, and more imo, as these all share the same traits of only being notable threats on their own level, but still exist on a 3-Dimensional Axis.

I don't think this makes much sense. They are kind of a threat to things not on their own level, if a cell was placed in the middle of a motherboard it could be zapped by the electricity running around.

If you don't consider that their 'real character' then I don't see how the implication is a new tier; wouldn't you just want to consider them 11-A again?

How would they get joule ratings with no mass? Sure they can and do have actual speed as long as they're at least 1D, but their mass by 3D standards will always be 0, meaning no matter how fast they move, their kinetic energy output is always 0 or just ouright in a lower-dimensional range

Because we no longer consider all lower-D beings to have no mass, and all higher-D beings to have infinite mass.

I personally believe it's a good idea, as 10-C currently includes a large amount of different subjects that I don't think should be considered comparable. Moreso the digital/artificial stuff imo. But I also believe that stuff like cells and baceria, etc have a reason to be separated too.

I do kinda agree with this, and I remember a proposal from Dee/Ultima, which basically went along the lines of making 11-C, 11-B, and 11-A into Low 11-C, 11-C, and High 11-C respectively, and replacing 11-B, 11-A, 10-C, and tiers in-between with as many tiers for smaller beings as necessary (i.e. small animal, insect, parasite, cell, virus, atomic, subatomic, whatever's deemed necessary).

so would that implies that an 11-A would be able to affect someone 3D physically?

No, in the same way that a 10-A can't affect a 1-B physically. Qualitative superiorities/inferiorities exist.

Also, if Joule output can be proportionally the same regardless of dimensional level, wouldn't it be a good idea to also list the tier X character holds within its dimensional level?
For example, a Low 1-C character destroying stars that are also of its dimensional level, but that if they were "simply 3-D" would translate into an High 4-C tier, ending up like "Low 1-C [High 4-C in its perspective]" tier or so.
This would help for cases like Umineko where characters are "simply tier 10" in their dimensional level, but overall are, well, tier 1, and maybe open gates for Reality Equalization being more open-ended for match-ups.

No, because higher-tiered and lower-tiered characters have qualitative superiorities, trivializing joule values of lower dimensions.

We could technically do feats relative to their own layer to reality, but there's an assload of issues with calculating something like that, so we tend to just assume that they're comparable.

You guys claim you don't want "haxless 10-Bs" on the site, yet are proposing for characters that are vastly weaker. I let lower dimensional ones slide because they are more integral to the dimensional aspect of the system. This however contradicts the complaints about haxless 10-Bs, who mind you, if this was accepted, would be untouchable by a Low 10-C. Please be a little more consistent with these standards. Additionally: Do not say "well we just don't want to be flooded with a bunch of powerless human characters". Because that is a completely different reason and one I agree with.

I mean, I don't want haxless 10-Bs because they're pretty much ordinary humans (or ordinary fantasy characters, aliens, animals, whatever) that don't really have anything distinctive battle-wise. Really I wouldn't want a profile for a fictional version of an animal that we happen to tier at 9-B, despite it not being 10-B.

 

[KieranH10]

I don't think this makes much sense. They are kind of a threat to things not on their own level, if a cell was placed in the middle of a motherboard it could be zapped by the electricity running around.

If you don't consider that their 'real character' then I don't see how the implication is a new tier; wouldn't you just want to consider them 11-A again?

I don't believe that the electrons and tiny currents and such define the character, and in similar contexts, the electronic components are very rarely even acknowledged in-verse.
But a character on the 3D plane, but confined to a fiction in-verse, whether it be a program (Such as Wreck It Ralph as a random example), or whether it isn't confined to electronic equipment, such as the Player from the Pedestrian, would arguably be superior to a character who is straight up 2D.

I do kinda agree with this, and I remember a proposal from Dee/Ultima, which basically went along the lines of making 11-C, 11-B, and 11-A into Low 11-C, 11-C, and High 11-C respectively, and replacing 11-B, 11-A, 10-C, and tiers in-between with as many tiers for smaller beings as necessary (i.e. small animal, insect, parasite, cell, virus, atomic, subatomic, whatever's deemed necessary).

This could also work I suppose and would solve the problem likely moreso than my suggestion.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't believe that the electrons and tiny currents and such define the character, and in similar contexts, the electronic components are very rarely even acknowledged in-verse. But a character on the 3D plane, but confined to a fiction in-verse, whether it be a program (Such as Wreck It Ralph as a random example), or whether it isn't confined to electronic equipment, such as the Player from the Pedestrian, would arguably be superior to a character who is straight up 2D.

I do not see how, if you disregard the electrons and currents. We already treat fictional characters, even if their fictional world is 3-D, as 11-A.

 

[KieranH10]

Because they still have some influence over the 3 Dimensional Plane due to existing within it, but it is unquantifiable. Something a 2-D character simply cannot do.

 

[Agnaa]

What is their influence on the 3-D plane, if not their electrons and electrical currents?

 

[KieranH10]

A character such as Wreck It Ralph (As his in-verse fictional videogame character) is still above anything a 2 Dimensional Character can achieve, as 2-D characters are completely incapable of interacting noticeably with a 3-D object, and cannot logically exist noticeably on a 3-D plane due to this.

Drawn/Digital Characters should at least be unquantifiably above this since they do exist on a 3 Dimensional Plane, but are often portrayed as confined to a Screen or Paper or such.

 

[Agnaa]

Aren't you then saying that they are literally the 3-D ink on the paper, or the LEDs on a screen? That is a quantifiable amount.

 

[KieranH10]

I suppose it could be seen that way.

 

[Agnaa]

That thin layer of ink moving around is still more than enough energy to destroy a single cell, even if they wouldn't really be able to perceive it.

Those LEDs blaring on and off could knock an atom around a little bit.

 

[KieranH10]

Yes, that makes sense in that case. Perhaps in the case of characters like this they should simply be 10-C or 11-A depending on whether they're treated as capable or incapable of affecting the 3D real world like normal.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I agree with Sera, this seems rather pointless.

 

[Antvasima]

Sera, DontTalk, and Agnaa make sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

Should we close this thread?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Yes, please

 

[Sera_EX]

I’ve done so.