Nero(the fate one, not the DMC series) vs Sora (1-9-0)

[speedster352]

I heard fate has broken hax. What does sora have going for him?

 

[Fezzih_007]

The profile isn't maintained correctly like every nasu page

Lmao, most of the pages on the Nasuverse are not maintained correctly, someone really need to fix them

True, but again is not on the profile, so we can't use It here.

Because even the most powerful supercomputer on the planet doesn't have the computing power to maintain a reality marble

Ok, you din't answer my question, like yeah that may be true, but How that's translate to combat technique? What you saiying Just give Shirou a very good brain.

And Nero don't scale to Shirou anyway.

I have been telling you in the entire thread

Using imperial privilege,

In which point you ever mentioned imperial privilegie?

She can get analytical prediction that allows her to win battles she would only a 1% chance of winning.and is borderline precog.

Instinctive instincts which allows one to dodge immeasurable speed attacks.

Actual precog which can see into the future.

Ok, i player fate extra with Nero and i don't remember any of that, can you show me Scan?

Skills good enough that she can fight against people who can see all futures,can bend space-time,can copy skills ignoring resistance of informational analysis,

The only feat she have listed on the profile is fighting Gawain, which can't do any of that.
We have to use what's on the profile.

Well it isn't maintained correctly

Yeah.

He can dodge ftl attacks as a subsonic.

Yeah, barelly he can dodge this attacks.

Thats saber's skill feat and also this is fiction anything goes.

In this forum, not anything goes actually.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I heard fate has broken hax. What does sora have going for him?

He is more skilled, and resist most of hax of Nero, because his resistance is 26 layers, i think?

 

[Bobsican]

I heard fate has broken hax. What does sora have going for him?

At least 27 layers of 6-D type 1 Concept Manip and type 2 Info Manip EE, passive Fate Manipulation that prevents permanent death/incap, the before-mentioned layered Void Manip, plenty of resistances to nearly all stuff on the site as layered, and High-Godly type 8 Immortality.

 

[Fezzih_007]

and High-Godly type 8 Immortality.

She have Immortality Negation High-Godly Type 8.

 

[Eseseso]

At least 27 layers of 6-D type 1 Concept Manip and type 2 Info Manip EE, passive Fate Manipulation that prevents permanent death/incap, the before-mentioned layered Void Manip, plenty of resistances to nearly all stuff on the site as layered, and High-Godly type 8 Immortality.

Just curious, where does this 27 layer stuff come from?

 

[Bobsican]

Just curious, where does this 27 layer stuff come from?

Here

She have Immortality Negation High-Godly Type 8.

What aspects included?

 

[speedster352]

Just a bit curious why wasn’t Gilgamesh used here?

At least 27 layers of 6-D type 1 Concept Manip and type 2 Info Manip EE, passive Fate Manipulation that prevents permanent death/incap, the before-mentioned layered Void Manip, plenty of resistances to nearly all stuff on the site as layered, and High-Godly type 8 Immortality.

Is authority able to resist?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Just a bit curious why wasn’t Gilgamesh used here?

I din't think of using him.
And honestly, he kinda stomp probally.

What aspects included?

What you mean?

 

[Bobsican]

As in what stuff besides body, mind and soul are negated from coming back after erasure. High-Godly isn't as simple as the other types as there's multiple "lost" aspects potentially involved to get there, and so there's also multiple kinds of HGR and HGR Negation, and not all of them are thus compatible.

For example, someone that negs High-Godly that'd otherwise recover after being erased of body, mind, soul and information, wouldn't be able to negate an High-Godly that recovered after having their body, mind, soul and concept erased.

 

[Fezzih_007]

As in what stuff besides body, mind and soul are negated from coming back after erasure. High-Godly isn't as simple as the other types as there's multiple "lost" aspects potentially involved to get there, and so there's also multiple kinds of HGR and HGR Negation, and not all of them are thus compatible.

For example, someone that negs High-Godly that'd otherwise recover after being erased of body, mind, soul and information, wouldn't be able to negate an High-Godly that recovered after having their body, mind, soul and concept erased.

Ok, after i done the recearch, she can negate immortaly that involves info and concepts too.

 

[Bobsican]

Sora's also includes history given it could also trigger with the whole Power of Waking incident.

 

[Eseseso]

Here

Thanks.

Just curious, how do Sora's resistances, which he seems to only get from those cards which can obviously vary depending on which ones he gets, carry over into future games?

And how does he have all resistances at once when he would seem to need to select various cards at a time?

I apologize if these questions seem dumb, I just don't know much about KH (except that their music ******* slaps).

 

[Bobsican]

Thanks.

Just curious, how do Sora's resistances, which he seems to only get from those cards which can obviously vary depending on which ones he gets, carry over into future games?

And how does he have all resistances at once when he would seem to need to select various cards at a time?

I apologize if these questions seem dumb, I just don't know much about KH (except that their music ******* slaps).

The reason the characters have that sort of layered hax outside of that game in the first place is because some characters can resist them even without the cards, and given they can be affected normally in later games where the power creep has raisen as well... yeah. Stuff enhanced by the cards includes KH Light and KH Darkness Manip, which in turns translates to a good portion of relevant resistances with how the latter in particular is dumb and the former is overall a defensive variant on that regard.

A card can override another regardless of its type, as the only criteria for that is its number, so that's not a factor.

 

[Eseseso]

The reason the characters have that sort of layered hax outside of that game in the first place is because some characters can resist them even without the cards, and given they can be affected normally in later games where the power creep has raisen as well... yeah. Stuff enhanced by the cards includes KH Light and KH Darkness Manip, which in turns translates to a good portion of relevant resistances with how the latter in particular is dumb and the former is overall a defensive variant on that regard.

A card can override another regardless of its type, as the only criteria for that is its number, so that's not a factor.

So the card powers don't leave after the end of the game?

 

[Kirinator07]

Sora's also includes history given it could also trigger with the whole Power of Waking incident.

Not my fault but there should honestly be some sort of clarification as to what type of aspects a character with HGR can regenerate from, it saves time.

 

[Bobsican]

So the card powers don't leave after the end of the game?

Kind of, this applies to resistances, then characters are shown bypassing such resistances with "stronger" KH Light/Darkness manip.

 

[Eseseso]

Kind of, this applies to resistances, then characters are shown bypassing such resistances with "stronger" KH Light/Darkness manip.

And this is what carries on in future games?

I'm sorry for all these questions I just don't know squat about KH scaling.

 

[Bobsican]

And this is what carries on in future games?

I'm sorry for all these questions I just don't know squat about KH scaling.

Yeah, especially with the whole source of the cards being from a character that's more directly relevant later.

Anyways, what I'm understanding of how this match is going is that it all boils down to hax layers, so I'd wait for a Nasu expert on that regard on something, namely on if Nero scales to the +30 layers or whatever.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Sora's also includes history given it could also trigger with the whole Power of Waking incident.

Wow, that's true.

Anyways, what I'm understanding of how this match is going is that it all boils down to hax layers, so I'd wait for a Nasu expert on that regard on something, namely on if Nero scales to the +30 layers or whatever.

I gonna put this match on the Discussion part.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I also see that there is a attempted argument for Nero being > A Supercomputer via the fact that Shirou can maintain a reality Marble. But, even if we take the idea that maintaining a reality marble is of this caliber, there is nothing indicating any scaling above Shirou for Nero, and in fact, I would argue that at least in UBW, Heaven's Feel, and Oath Under Snow, Shirou would massively dwarf Nero in skill (Via the simple fact he's been copying the skill of numerous much more skilled Servants and has been shown to maintain that skill for a seemingly indefinite period of time after copying them), so this argument doesn't really work.

Except your argument falls apart rather easily when nameless did just as good as nero does,unless you are telling me a mooncell boasted nameless is inferior to oath under snow shirou

If the Argument here is that her Noble Phantasm is a Reality Marble, ergo the same idea applies, the fact is that her NP is not a Reality Marble, but rather it works similarly to one. Instead of overwriting the world, it merely builds on top of it- Which is something a Computer can likely quantify rather easily, or at least would be much easier to calculate.

Shirou gets that level of processing power due to magic circuits,each magic circuit is on par with a supercomputer,we know nero has magic circuits because we modify them to make her stronger.

In any case, while I do find Nero impressive if we take into consideration Skill Scaling, Sora simply has wayyyy more feats to his name. There's the fact that he can parry a Omni-Directional Laser Attack, for one- Or maybe the fact that he consistently is shown being able to pick up New Weapons (Primarily through Formchanging) and is able to use them with surprising skill in spite of seemingly never having trained to use them before. Or how about we use how Roxas (Who as his nobody, should have comparable/equal skill to Sora) was able to defeat character's like Saix and Xion in spite of working off of essentially fumes (Xion was absorbing the vast majority of Roxas's power at the time, yet he still defeats these combatants who should explicitly dwarf him in sheer stats.). Sora simply has way more going for him overall, whereas most of Nero's best feats are just fighting other character's normally, which while impressive, can be heavily affected by her stats, whereas a lot of Sora's stats don't matter for his feats or feats he scales to.

Nero literally can gain any skill in the nasuverse by saying yes I have it,so Sora has to deal with every servant skills and abilities at the same time.

 

[Bobsican]

How a character gets their skill capability and what they do in practice often is quite different, I already went on how thinking faster than a supercomputer doesn't translate into skill for these purposes out of how skill and speed are separate. @Fezzih_007 also brought up a similar point you didn't address:

Ok, you din't answer my question, like yeah that may be true, but How that's translate to combat technique? What you saiying Just give Shirou a very good brain.

And Nero don't scale to Shirou anyway.

Sora upscales from people that could inherit every technique in the verse, including his own, merely knowning a technique doesn't mean someone also knows how to mix it efficiently with others or the most appropiate contexts to use it.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Except your argument falls apart rather easily when nameless did just as good as nero does,

No? Like, Nameless is more skilled than Nero, so he doing the same stuff as her is just obvious.

unless you are telling me a mooncell boasted nameless is inferior to oath under snow shirou

They have the same skill, duh.

Shirou gets that level of processing power due to magic circuits,each magic circuit is on par with a supercomputer,we know nero has magic circuits because we modify them to make her stronger.

Ok, you din't answer my question, like yeah that may be true, but How that's translate to combat technique? What you saiying Just give Shirou a very good brain.

And Nero don't scale to Shirou anyway.

Nero literally can gain any skill in the nasuverse by saying yes I have it,so Sora has to deal with every servant skills and abilities at the same time.

While that's true, i don't remember a instance where she gain on this skill Mid combat, can you show me Scan?

 

[Violetcyanide]

No? Like, Nameless is more skilled than Nero, so he doing the same stuff as her is just obvious.

No,both of them did just as bad as each other,both got stomped by gawain before they had to power up.implying they were identically skilled.

They have the same skill, duh.

No they don't,card holder dont really have the entire skill,they are said to wield only a portion of the original skills and powers.

While that's true, i don't remember a instance where she gain on this skill Mid combat, can you show me Scan?

Why do I need to show that,the skill obviously says that she can gets skills because she can,cleopatra uses the exact skills to become a combat servant.

Ok, you din't answer my question, like yeah that may be true, but How that's translate to combat technique? What you saiying Just give Shirou a very good brain.

And Nero don't scale to Shirou anyway

1.i didn't even reply to you

2.nero scales far above shirou considering she is on par with nameless who is shirou with eons worth of experience.

 

[Fezzih_007]

No,both of them did just as bad as each other,both got stomped by gawain before they had to power up.implying they were identically skilled.

Not really no.

No they don't,card holder dont really have the entire skill,they are said to wield only a portion of the original skills and powers.

In this wiki, we assume they have actually the same skill and power.
And don't change much, since Shirou and Emiya have the same ability of copying the skill of they opponent.

Why do I need to show that,the skill obviously says that she can gets skills because she can,cleopatra uses the exact skills to become a combat servant.

Because you need to show If she uses in-character, otherwise It would out of character of her to use.

1.i didn't even reply to you

You did.

2.nero scales far above shirou considering she is on par with nameless who is shirou with eons worth of experience.

Shirou can copy skill of the weapons he is using, even the experience, that don't say much.

And Nameless is more skilled than Nero because of more Experience+Copy the abilities of any servant.

 

[Violetcyanide]

In this wiki, we assume they have actually the same skill and power.
And don't change much, since Shirou and Emiya have the same ability of copying the skill of they opponent.

The first thing we learn about the class card is that they are inferior to the original in every way.

Because you need to show If she uses in-character, otherwise It would out of character of her to use.

Dude what are you talking about?
Imperial privilege is a skill you get beacause of your character,there is no "out of character " to consider because the skill exist because it is in character for its users.people who can say i can do this because I can,is the entire skill users.

You did.

Read the exchange carefully this time,I was responding to kingstrategist.

Shirou can copy skill of the weapons he is using, even the experience, that don't say much.

And?nero still does better than him in the second gawain fight.

And Nameless is more skilled than Nero because of more Experience+Copy the abilities of any servant.

No he isn't,nameless and nero got both stomped by gawain,and in the second fight nero won with relative ease meanwhile nameless nearly died,aint now way nameless is "more skilled"

 

[Fezzih_007]

The first thing we learn about the class card is that they are inferior to the original in every way.

Yes, but in this forum we don't exactly difference between the two.

Dude what are you talking about?

I'm asking when did Nero ever uses her imperial privilegie to gain any servant skill mid combat, you failed to provide a time she did that.
Like, i know she can do It, but i want to know when she ever dome that.

Read the exchange carefully this time,I was responding to kingstrategist.

This quote:

Ok, you din't answer my question, like yeah that may be true, but How that's translate to combat technique? What you saiying Just give Shirou a very good brain.

And Nero don't scale to Shirou anyway.

Is me responding to this comment

Because even the most powerful supercomputer on the planet doesn't have the computing power to maintain a reality marble

I just use the same quote again, to reply to your response.

I just saying the same thing to respond to same argument you making.

And?nero still does better than him in the second gawain fight.

And what, you saying that Nameless is more experienced than Shirou, which don't say much since Shirou can copy the experience of the weapons his uses.
Can you show me Scan saiying that If Nero being better than Nameless?

No he isn't,nameless and nero got both stomped by gawain,and in the second fight nero won with relative ease meanwhile nameless nearly died,aint now way nameless is "more skilled"

Can you prove It?

 

[Violetcyanide]

Yes, but in this forum we don't exactly difference between the two.

Yes we do,any supporter will tell you that.

I'm asking when did Nero ever uses her imperial privilegie to gain any servant skill mid combat, you failed to provide a time she did that.
Like, i know she can do It, but i want to know when she ever dome that.

How am I supposed to prove that?we dont get to see her skill list in real time

I just saying the same thing to respond to same argument you making.

What? King asked me how exactly does shirou maintaining a reality marble scales to nero,which I explained.i have no idea why you even butted in to that conversation.

And what, you saying that Nameless is more experienced than Shirou, which don't say much since Shirou can copy the experience of the weapons his uses.

Except nameless know which weapon is much more suitable to each encounter unlike shirou who only uses the weapon he thinks is the correct one.

Can you show me Scan saiying that If Nero being better than Nameless?

Can you prove it?

I did,didnt you read the entire last paragraph,the aftermath of the second fight against gawain,nameless nearly died meanwhile nero was relatively fine.this means nero is atleast as good as nameless.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yes we do,any supporter will tell you that.

Sure we do.

What? King asked me how exactly does shirou maintaining a reality marble scales to nero,which I explained.i have no idea why you even butted in to that conversation.

You know this is a public discussion, right? We are arguing who should would win between Sora and Nero, anyone can discuss with anyone about the arguments they don't agree. I don't agree with what you said, so i arguing agaist you.

Anyway, this conversartion is pointless, so les't stop this talk.

Except nameless know which weapon is much more suitable to each encounter unlike shirou who only uses the weapon he thinks is the correct one.

How that's in anyway is relevant to what i just said about Shirou copying skill?

I did,didnt you read the entire last paragraph,the aftermath of the second fight against gawain,nameless nearly died meanwhile nero was relatively fine.this means nero is atleast as good as nameless.

No, you claimed that what you said is true, i asking for evidence that you statement is in fact correct.

 

[Bobsican]

I recall it was already agreed on by multiple users here that Sora is more skilled than Shirou Emiya, if that's something being actually argued here for some reason.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Actually, what he wants to argue is that Nero is more skilled that Shirou, which have zero prove of that.

 

[Bobsican]

That's... even worse.

 

[Fezzih_007]

We are in a Low 1-C match, and we discussing skill instead of hax, that's kinda weird now that i noticed.

 

[Kirinator07]

Yeah man, take this to the skill thread instead, we're here conversing about counters to abilities and such.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah man, take this to the skill thread instead, we're here conversing about counters to abilities and such.

We just need to know the level of layers that Nasuverse hax is, and we are good to continuining.

 

[Bobsican]

More importantly on what Nero scales at on that regard, unless every tier 1 Nasu character has the same amount of layers, which I'd doubt.

 

[Kirinator07]

We just need to know the level of layers that Nasuverse hax is, and we are good to continuining.

It's all over the place and is sometimes referenced as infinite layers of Authority

 

[Violetcyanide]

Yeah man, take this to the skill thread instead, we're here conversing about counters to abilities and such.

Because nero only has resistance and no hax,if you want confirmation of hax layers,then just ask @Paul_Frank ,@Regidian ,@John985

 

[Kirinator07]

Because nero only has resistance and no hax,if you want confirmation of hax layers,then just ask @Paul_Frank ,@Regidian ,@John985

Read comment above

 

[Violetcyanide]

Read comment above

Infinite.

I already mentioned it,anyone who scales above ashtarte,gets infinite layers.bb and nero scale above her