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"Natural Power" my arse, Kamijou Touma vs Han Jee-Han
- Thread starter Ricsi-viragosi
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #82
If he landed a hit Han would likely be stunned in the least, and whatever he wasdoing would likely be stopped (Skills are mentioned to make him able to move by second nature). But again, taking out swords likely isn't happening. It boils down to him being hit and one-shot (Because while skill migh help not get his face broken in, a proper hit to his head with that force without his stat amps would at the very least give him a concussion) or dodging and then either figuring out a ways to get around the skill or just outlasting him.
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- #84
ince they are in central park, it's mostly a plain with trees around.
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Gotta study but {
Regarding Tsuchi, that still makes it difficult to identify. Regardless of his enhancements, Han is more than enough to take out superhuman zombies. Even PRIOR to his martial arts training while using a regular weapon. Even if he gets buffs it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean he loses it all. He still has the knowledge. Gamer's Body only supplements and keeps track of his growth and capability. If Gamer's Power is negated then the other people that Han helped would not have their power remain on them. They learn magic and get to keep it (Student prez or glasses girl for example) is still able to use magic and do the tricks she knows. Gamer's Body keeps track of growth and makes it easier. Han still has all the experience, and even if they're lessened he'd be able to use it properly. Han being able to harm said zombies before his stronger upgrades is enough to show that he's more than enough. Also punching people away is nice, but then again it's not as impressive as you'd think. It's not as if they're sent flying and tumbling a good distance away.
Additionally Touma being able to take out Accelerator with only his right hand makes sense cause if he uses his left hand he's kinda screwed. It's gonna fly away.
And Izzard. Izzard implanted a command on Touma before but he negated, but it also shows he could be affected mentally or have abilities affect him before he can negate said ability. If Han used the observe on his right hand then that's likely not gonna work but on his body? Gonna work, even with some weird question marks.
On the water knives part, that's nice and great actually. Pretty badass of him. But still doesn't help the fact that precog can only do so much. If you deal with an undodgeable attack you're not gonna be able to dodge it.
>There's still the issues of the explosions hitting Touma from all directions.
>There's still the issue of Touma having to deal with the fact that prematurely detonating an explosive orb, will not really change the outcome that he's gonna be hit by a rain of explosive orbs
>There's still the issue of having to deal with the velocity of such attacks otherwise railgun won't be such a threat to him.
>And there's still the issue that Gnome can perform a trap offscreen and he would fall to a pitfall if he's not careful since that's less a magic attack and more of a trap.
Since it's central park I'm even wondering if somehow Han can lure him into a building and sink said building.
Sure Touma can negate Han's powers, but his physical feats remain. Which is worrying considering one of the weaker enemies he defeat in chapter 2, is a Slime that can crack concrete, and he only got stronger from that point on .
Regarding Tsuchi, that still makes it difficult to identify. Regardless of his enhancements, Han is more than enough to take out superhuman zombies. Even PRIOR to his martial arts training while using a regular weapon. Even if he gets buffs it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean he loses it all. He still has the knowledge. Gamer's Body only supplements and keeps track of his growth and capability. If Gamer's Power is negated then the other people that Han helped would not have their power remain on them. They learn magic and get to keep it (Student prez or glasses girl for example) is still able to use magic and do the tricks she knows. Gamer's Body keeps track of growth and makes it easier. Han still has all the experience, and even if they're lessened he'd be able to use it properly. Han being able to harm said zombies before his stronger upgrades is enough to show that he's more than enough. Also punching people away is nice, but then again it's not as impressive as you'd think. It's not as if they're sent flying and tumbling a good distance away.
Additionally Touma being able to take out Accelerator with only his right hand makes sense cause if he uses his left hand he's kinda screwed. It's gonna fly away.
And Izzard. Izzard implanted a command on Touma before but he negated, but it also shows he could be affected mentally or have abilities affect him before he can negate said ability. If Han used the observe on his right hand then that's likely not gonna work but on his body? Gonna work, even with some weird question marks.
On the water knives part, that's nice and great actually. Pretty badass of him. But still doesn't help the fact that precog can only do so much. If you deal with an undodgeable attack you're not gonna be able to dodge it.
>There's still the issues of the explosions hitting Touma from all directions.
>There's still the issue of Touma having to deal with the fact that prematurely detonating an explosive orb, will not really change the outcome that he's gonna be hit by a rain of explosive orbs
>There's still the issue of having to deal with the velocity of such attacks otherwise railgun won't be such a threat to him.
>And there's still the issue that Gnome can perform a trap offscreen and he would fall to a pitfall if he's not careful since that's less a magic attack and more of a trap.
Since it's central park I'm even wondering if somehow Han can lure him into a building and sink said building.
Sure Touma can negate Han's powers, but his physical feats remain. Which is worrying considering one of the weaker enemies he defeat in chapter 2, is a Slime that can crack concrete, and he only got stronger from that point on .
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With the Zombies, he still had to use enhancements to fight them off. My argument regarding them more so revolves of their lack of ability to even think of dodging rather than just taking the hit. Also, I don't think we have any way of knowing what would happen if IB came into contact with Gamer Body. Would he be able to use that knowledge if his ability is what supplies and stores it? It isn't like he actually read the books he gets. It just gets added to his menu of abilities. And plenty of Toumas punches did send people flying and tumbling. The first time he punched stiyl there was a full flip and bashed his head into a rail.
Izzard is such a weird case even in the Raildexverse. Even the author hates that book because he didn't have time to write and research it like the others. I guess it is canon none the less though. Izzard's ability let him actively warp reality itself but as long as the spell was localized in Touma's head that can technically work with limitations. As soon as imagine breaker came into contact with it it still got negated. Another example is Misaki who had to use a loophole to even contact Touma and even then rather than speaking directly she had to leave something like a prerecorded message since as far as we can tell a continuous connection would break. The main problem is that the canon isn't clear on what works as a loophole and what doesn't.
When it comes to the explosion that would be a toughie but there are potential ways around it like running through a denser collection of trees or charging forward and creating a hole he could jump through to at least mitigate the effect of the explosions. It would depend on how Han fired the attack and just how much he can fire in his 8-C state. If there is charge up that could potentially leave Touma with time to reach him.
I don't know about Gnome. He would be summoning her in plain sight so it's hard to say how effective using her would be. Especially something as ambiguous as doing something "offscreen".
Lastly, he had to use Tear Off to beat the slime which gives him a 30% atk boost for tearing things off. Not a feat in martial arts that would really apply here.
Izzard is such a weird case even in the Raildexverse. Even the author hates that book because he didn't have time to write and research it like the others. I guess it is canon none the less though. Izzard's ability let him actively warp reality itself but as long as the spell was localized in Touma's head that can technically work with limitations. As soon as imagine breaker came into contact with it it still got negated. Another example is Misaki who had to use a loophole to even contact Touma and even then rather than speaking directly she had to leave something like a prerecorded message since as far as we can tell a continuous connection would break. The main problem is that the canon isn't clear on what works as a loophole and what doesn't.
When it comes to the explosion that would be a toughie but there are potential ways around it like running through a denser collection of trees or charging forward and creating a hole he could jump through to at least mitigate the effect of the explosions. It would depend on how Han fired the attack and just how much he can fire in his 8-C state. If there is charge up that could potentially leave Touma with time to reach him.
I don't know about Gnome. He would be summoning her in plain sight so it's hard to say how effective using her would be. Especially something as ambiguous as doing something "offscreen".
Lastly, he had to use Tear Off to beat the slime which gives him a 30% atk boost for tearing things off. Not a feat in martial arts that would really apply here.
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Quick question, can Touma negate danmaku? Or does he have to wave his hand around?
Also, I'm going to have to reread the bit with Gnome because I don't recall her having to fuse with the earth at all. Only that she seems to control it. And If Han is keeping Touma occupied with Danmaku, it'll be difficult for Touma to keep from falling into a pitfall.
Hurling regular boulders than Gnome has carved still works.
And ordinary weapons like his bat would work just fine as well.
I also wouldn't say Han has pseudo-flight here. He can just jump pretty high and stays in the air for seemingly abnormal amounts of time with some of his jumps. Though that's likely just for effect as talking is a free action.
Also, I'm going to have to reread the bit with Gnome because I don't recall her having to fuse with the earth at all. Only that she seems to control it. And If Han is keeping Touma occupied with Danmaku, it'll be difficult for Touma to keep from falling into a pitfall.
Hurling regular boulders than Gnome has carved still works.
And ordinary weapons like his bat would work just fine as well.
I also wouldn't say Han has pseudo-flight here. He can just jump pretty high and stays in the air for seemingly abnormal amounts of time with some of his jumps. Though that's likely just for effect as talking is a free action.
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Ah, I see. I guess the main issue is that Han's danmaku won't be turning into shards. They're not physical matter like water, and are composed of mana. They also explode if they stop before hitting their target for whatever reason. This would also make it difficult to stop concurrent attacks from above and below, and the front and the back.
That passage was also a really good read.
That passage was also a really good read.
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The only time he ever did was in the beginning of the series...
S1 C12 - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Iu3c0SqO_...4eN6vGRSpbZqQS5mXTbPgACHM/s16000/0012-008.png
Regardless of him attacking with a mana attack prior, he can still harm these superhuman things. Regardless of them being dumb they're still strong. Claiming otherwise is silly.
We do have an idea of what happens if IB makes contact with Gamer's Body. Imagine Breaker reverts things to prior to change by supernatural or magical means and cancels it as long as it's in contact. The Gamer allows Han to level up and figure out how to strengthen himself. Others can strengthen themselves through training much like him, and if Touma touches them he won't cancel their capabilities.
Considering how many times he trained and grinded himself to use an ability... I'd say the knowledge would be pretty well implanted on his mind. Not all of it but most of it.
Wasn't Stiyl also a 13 year old kid? Either way it's still not as impressive as being able to take on zombies at your weaker form when you were lesser levels, with casual attacks. It doesn't matter if he used buffs. He was still strong enough to kick em around when they're weak. I showed you feats already.
Canon is canon. Misaki and Izzard can still affect him loophole or not. Han's Observe will tell him everything he needs to know about Touma and to look out for his arm.
If you run through a carpet bomb, you'll still get hit. They're at central park after all and it's doubtful the tree will be enough as a defense. How does Touma create a hole? He never punches to make holes. A regular attack from Han is still dangerous. The more he hides behind trees, the more Han is likelier to uproot them by having Gnome do something underground. And then he'll be out of cover.
Nope. Even if he does summon Gnome, he won't have her get close to him with his ability and he can likely just resummon her. That's because she carved out a tunnel system under city blocks while offscreen. Touma cannot defend against someone who can carve out that much without being seen by whoever's above. If she collapses the ground while he's still above, he's gonna fall and takes some damage.
He was like Lvl 3 when he did that. Or lvl 4.
He's like, what lvl now? 20 or something? Besides if he used Tear Off on Touma he's gonna get torn off. How would a combat feat not apply? Nevermind that, he's still able to harm such a thing at his weaker times.
S1 C12 - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Iu3c0SqO_...4eN6vGRSpbZqQS5mXTbPgACHM/s16000/0012-008.png
Regardless of him attacking with a mana attack prior, he can still harm these superhuman things. Regardless of them being dumb they're still strong. Claiming otherwise is silly.
We do have an idea of what happens if IB makes contact with Gamer's Body. Imagine Breaker reverts things to prior to change by supernatural or magical means and cancels it as long as it's in contact. The Gamer allows Han to level up and figure out how to strengthen himself. Others can strengthen themselves through training much like him, and if Touma touches them he won't cancel their capabilities.
Considering how many times he trained and grinded himself to use an ability... I'd say the knowledge would be pretty well implanted on his mind. Not all of it but most of it.
Wasn't Stiyl also a 13 year old kid? Either way it's still not as impressive as being able to take on zombies at your weaker form when you were lesser levels, with casual attacks. It doesn't matter if he used buffs. He was still strong enough to kick em around when they're weak. I showed you feats already.
Canon is canon. Misaki and Izzard can still affect him loophole or not. Han's Observe will tell him everything he needs to know about Touma and to look out for his arm.
If you run through a carpet bomb, you'll still get hit. They're at central park after all and it's doubtful the tree will be enough as a defense. How does Touma create a hole? He never punches to make holes. A regular attack from Han is still dangerous. The more he hides behind trees, the more Han is likelier to uproot them by having Gnome do something underground. And then he'll be out of cover.
Nope. Even if he does summon Gnome, he won't have her get close to him with his ability and he can likely just resummon her. That's because she carved out a tunnel system under city blocks while offscreen. Touma cannot defend against someone who can carve out that much without being seen by whoever's above. If she collapses the ground while he's still above, he's gonna fall and takes some damage.
He was like Lvl 3 when he did that. Or lvl 4.
He's like, what lvl now? 20 or something? Besides if he used Tear Off on Touma he's gonna get torn off. How would a combat feat not apply? Nevermind that, he's still able to harm such a thing at his weaker times.
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My point with the Zombies is that don't have the ability to dodge, something that Touma does. I wasn't saying they are weak.
Stiyl is young but his body mass is still the same so it doesn't really lesson anything.
He can train and grind all he wants but there is no evidence that would suggest that is the case.
IB is an absolute null while in contact so any abilities that make use of or rely on Gamer's Body would likely be nulled too. Aslong as the ability relies on any magic it would be locked. Izzard and Misiki only targeted his brain. Observe likely wouldn't work scanning imagine breaker so Han wouldn't be able to see what it can do. Any spells that effect Toumas whole body including his hand are canceled. That is examplified by any attempt to heal him with magic. It would either just say nothing of interest or simply not work.
How often does Han open with carpet bombing anyway? It seems out of place for him to open on something like that against a single foe. Not to mention the fight starts fairly close together so something that would rely in a charge or takes time to summon would be a risk. Especially with speed equalized.
Also is there a more detailed version of the impact of the explosion from magic arrows? The earlier scan makes it hard to tell if that is the actual explosion or just the author using creative liberty to exagerate the impact on the enemies.
Tear Off would probably be too easy to stop using IB since its basically a free grab.
Stiyl is young but his body mass is still the same so it doesn't really lesson anything.
He can train and grind all he wants but there is no evidence that would suggest that is the case.
IB is an absolute null while in contact so any abilities that make use of or rely on Gamer's Body would likely be nulled too. Aslong as the ability relies on any magic it would be locked. Izzard and Misiki only targeted his brain. Observe likely wouldn't work scanning imagine breaker so Han wouldn't be able to see what it can do. Any spells that effect Toumas whole body including his hand are canceled. That is examplified by any attempt to heal him with magic. It would either just say nothing of interest or simply not work.
How often does Han open with carpet bombing anyway? It seems out of place for him to open on something like that against a single foe. Not to mention the fight starts fairly close together so something that would rely in a charge or takes time to summon would be a risk. Especially with speed equalized.
Also is there a more detailed version of the impact of the explosion from magic arrows? The earlier scan makes it hard to tell if that is the actual explosion or just the author using creative liberty to exagerate the impact on the enemies.
Tear Off would probably be too easy to stop using IB since its basically a free grab.
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I thought this was a discussion of strength. Nevertheless there's overwhelming with numbers.
>He is physically very weak, as shown when he was easily beaten by Touma with a single punch (though this is explained as Innocentius needing vast amounts of energy, rendering Stiyl's body weaker than most others').[3]
Found on the wiki.
Let me put this at the very very basic. The Gamer is a toggle that shows him how to get stronger and gives him a few cheat codes. It also shows how strong he is currently. Anything else is his natural talent and effort alone.
Yes. It's absolute. But IB is absolutely not gonna revert changes trained naturally. Unless working out physically is something IB can undo. Han didn't develop it with magic, though he did create space and time for him to do so, he just kept working out.
So basically Han just has to observe Touma and not his right hand. BUT even if you're right on it not working, that just makes Han more cautious. Especially when he realizes Touma can negate magic attacks from him.
It's his go-to against anything. Golems. Monsters. Regular enemies. Mages. Etc. It's not unnatural once he realizes Touma can only block with his right hand. He always fights from afar and avoids fighting up close. He said so himself, he's squishy in comparison to other mages. He can attack while moving, Touma is gonna have to defend and brace himself from numerous attacks. Summons can literally just be tossed out with a wave of a hand. Same for Gnome.
There's actual explosions with the attacks. Same attack, just spinning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-puxfOzjty...jmsTZ9nx-tR15pUSww4KqgCHM/s16000/0031-033.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--2DZntaai...Y11LDqOnPcOCbspu4qzNhgCHM/s16000/0033-011.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lv9KoaHwt...7If-MAlV1qEXU3sEn0mt0wCHM/s16000/0033-012.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zj_-WEyFr...s-6YOoVsvVPcLjXcv-CQLQCHM/s16000/0040-013.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S6I-ys4Id...UYGpDvxvvY2SC7JOX8JYhgCHM/s16000/0040-014.png
Spinning rain of arrows everyday that explode. In fact he's proud of its explosions when first developed.
Another dangerous ability. Chains. Sure Touma can cancel it but he'll likely to get bound first.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WjQmYPlic...0pDirLdLbwjQkYSA7MLQIACHM/s16000/0031-026.png
Okay fair on that, but point is, him punching Touma is basically gonna be a very harmful attack even if IB negates his magical aspect. He still has muscles.
>He is physically very weak, as shown when he was easily beaten by Touma with a single punch (though this is explained as Innocentius needing vast amounts of energy, rendering Stiyl's body weaker than most others').[3]
Found on the wiki.
Let me put this at the very very basic. The Gamer is a toggle that shows him how to get stronger and gives him a few cheat codes. It also shows how strong he is currently. Anything else is his natural talent and effort alone.
Yes. It's absolute. But IB is absolutely not gonna revert changes trained naturally. Unless working out physically is something IB can undo. Han didn't develop it with magic, though he did create space and time for him to do so, he just kept working out.
So basically Han just has to observe Touma and not his right hand. BUT even if you're right on it not working, that just makes Han more cautious. Especially when he realizes Touma can negate magic attacks from him.
It's his go-to against anything. Golems. Monsters. Regular enemies. Mages. Etc. It's not unnatural once he realizes Touma can only block with his right hand. He always fights from afar and avoids fighting up close. He said so himself, he's squishy in comparison to other mages. He can attack while moving, Touma is gonna have to defend and brace himself from numerous attacks. Summons can literally just be tossed out with a wave of a hand. Same for Gnome.
There's actual explosions with the attacks. Same attack, just spinning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-puxfOzjty...jmsTZ9nx-tR15pUSww4KqgCHM/s16000/0031-033.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--2DZntaai...Y11LDqOnPcOCbspu4qzNhgCHM/s16000/0033-011.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lv9KoaHwt...7If-MAlV1qEXU3sEn0mt0wCHM/s16000/0033-012.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zj_-WEyFr...s-6YOoVsvVPcLjXcv-CQLQCHM/s16000/0040-013.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S6I-ys4Id...UYGpDvxvvY2SC7JOX8JYhgCHM/s16000/0040-014.png
Spinning rain of arrows everyday that explode. In fact he's proud of its explosions when first developed.
Another dangerous ability. Chains. Sure Touma can cancel it but he'll likely to get bound first.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WjQmYPlic...0pDirLdLbwjQkYSA7MLQIACHM/s16000/0031-026.png
Okay fair on that, but point is, him punching Touma is basically gonna be a very harmful attack even if IB negates his magical aspect. He still has muscles.
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Stiyl may have been weak at the time but I'm more so arguing that Touma is strong enough to send him into a flip not just knock him out. I can't see most athletes doing that to someone as big as Stiyl.
Can't fight you on that. Though I do think if magical aspects were removed via IB Han would at least revert to peak human in strength since I doubt the human body could handle anything more without causing damage to itself.
I'd have to go back through the books because I remember Touma has dealt with undodgeable, multidirectional attacks multiple times but can't think of an example where they exploded afterward.
That chain would definitely slow Touma down some if he can't touch it before it wraps him.
Good examples.
Can't fight you on that. Though I do think if magical aspects were removed via IB Han would at least revert to peak human in strength since I doubt the human body could handle anything more without causing damage to itself.
I'd have to go back through the books because I remember Touma has dealt with undodgeable, multidirectional attacks multiple times but can't think of an example where they exploded afterward.
That chain would definitely slow Touma down some if he can't touch it before it wraps him.
Good examples.
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Fair, but at the same time, this verse of Gamer has people who train themselves to much stronger levels than Han, even as he is now, by relying on pure training. With a bit of chi, but still mostly physical training. It would be like Saitama's method of training but to a much lesser case.
You mean with Othinius? Yeah typically it gets overwhelming when a carpet bombing style attack is used. If he's faster he would be capable of doding.
It would be a good distraction to say the least. Can also be used to toss or drag something towards him but that's unlikelier. I did say it won't be as effective.
Thank you.
You mean with Othinius? Yeah typically it gets overwhelming when a carpet bombing style attack is used. If he's faster he would be capable of doding.
It would be a good distraction to say the least. Can also be used to toss or drag something towards him but that's unlikelier. I did say it won't be as effective.
Thank you.
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Going to point out that you can't get superhuman just by training in-verse. You either need a supernatural energy, an aptitude in said energy or gaia granting you thay stuff. In-fact, most peak himans were gaia's result.
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Without activating aura or chi, Han's friend's sister was swinging around a giant hammer. I'm pretty sure this follows the same convention of training = stronger.
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I mean, the thing is 10 kilos, in not an impossible feat. But regardless of that, she cannot reach that strenght naturally, and ki increases strenght passively as well.
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Mangas and other webtoons have other characters reach that, it won't be a surprise really.
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Other fiction doesn't really matter tough. Here it's made clear that the abyss is hell for anyone that isn't born special.
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I'm a bit mixed on the subject here. I do agree that the latent energy allows for them to achieve these superhuman feats. But their physical training is what grants them their huge boons in strength. It is their training. They can train their energy through meditation, as well as train their body. And the two are seen as different types of training.
I do agree with Haptk1 that Han would be reduced to a peak human given the training he's put himself through. And it also seems doubtful that observe would work at all. I'm fairly certain it wouldn't.
I do agree with Haptk1 that Han would be reduced to a peak human given the training he's put himself through. And it also seems doubtful that observe would work at all. I'm fairly certain it wouldn't.
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Han FRA for now
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Missed this.
@ Risci
Special can be talent or a natural affinity for martial arts.
@ Lit
Other abilities have worked on Touma before as long as they're not used on his right hand. I'm certain observe, which just gives a general thoughts would be enough to inform Han.
Even if you disregard the stat allocation, it doesn't help that Han got fit/stronger through training (literally just by putting weights on himself and running). His Gamer powers just alerted him that "hey you're stronger now"
@ Risci
Special can be talent or a natural affinity for martial arts.
@ Lit
Other abilities have worked on Touma before as long as they're not used on his right hand. I'm certain observe, which just gives a general thoughts would be enough to inform Han.
Even if you disregard the stat allocation, it doesn't help that Han got fit/stronger through training (literally just by putting weights on himself and running). His Gamer powers just alerted him that "hey you're stronger now"
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Han Jee-Han FRA
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@Core
I suppose the thing on observe is fair if other similar things have worked on him.
True, but he could only achieve superhuman capacity due to his unique energy, which he obtained as part of the package of powers he received from Gaea. I'm fairly certain that energy would be unnatural in Touma's verse.
I suppose the thing on observe is fair if other similar things have worked on him.
True, but he could only achieve superhuman capacity due to his unique energy, which he obtained as part of the package of powers he received from Gaea. I'm fairly certain that energy would be unnatural in Touma's verse.
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Awesome
The issue is he only strengthened himself through training and used other mediums. It's like using a magic treadmill to get buff. Didn't he admit himself that he could strengthen himself through physical training?
The issue is he only strengthened himself through training and used other mediums. It's like using a magic treadmill to get buff. Didn't he admit himself that he could strengthen himself through physical training?
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He can. But so can regular humans. Difference is he has access to an energy that allows for superhuman characteristics.
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