Natsuki Subaru VS Frisk

[ShionAH]

Have it you way then. And don't just start arguing again after saying something like this.

I realized you still didn't give me the quote I asked for. Seems like thats not the way SBA works.

 

[Tural2004]

I realized you still didn't give me the quote I asked for. Seems like thats not the way SBA works.

Because I didn't need any quote. Because the quote you supposedly provided didn't mean what you thought it means.

 

[ShionAH]

Because I didn't need any quote. Because the quote you supposedly provided didn't mean what you thought it means.

So you don't have any quote that backs up your claim that says Social Influence is not a wincon unlike mine which I have the quote of? Alright case closed.

 

[TauanVictor]

Never said it isn't. I just said "becoming friends" isn't among wincons SI provides.

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

 

[Tural2004]

So you don't have any quote that backs up your claim that says Social Influence is not a wincon unlike mine which I have the quote of? Alright case closed.

I feel like crying. Why don't you properly read what I write? I don't think I have ever seen someone using the Argumentum ad Nauseum fallacy to this degree. I will try not to answer until you actually bring something new to the table.

@TauanVictor he already made that argument and I presented my counterargument. That is not what being incapacitated means and the situation holds true for both sides.

 

[ShionAH]

I feel like crying. Why don't you properly read what I write? I don't think I have ever seen someone using the Argumentum ad Nauseum fallacy to this degree. I will try not to answer until you actually bring something new to the table.

@TauanVictor he already made that argument and I presented my counterargument. That is not what being incapacitated means and the situation holds true for both sides.

So you don't have any quote

Yeah I still don't see how literally turning the opponent into your ally is not a wincon.

 

[Phoenks]

"And there is no known limit to how many times they can return. This ability allows Subaru a near endless amount of second chances"

How are we so sure he can do it infinite times?

It says it on the page. Echidna, the smartest person in the verse, said it was infinite.

The ability also relies on Satella, not Subaru, who will continuously resurrect him forever, because she is immortal.

 

[ShionAH]

It says it on the page. Echidna, the smartest person in the verse, said it was infinite.

The ability also relies on Satella, not Subaru, who will continuously resurrect him forever, because she is immortal.

At some point wouldn't he go mad? A few deaths can cause him trauma. A million would destroy his mind.

 

[Phoenks]

At some point wouldn't he go mad? A few deaths can cause him trauma. A million would destroy his mind.

That doesn't mean he'll stop, though? He can just keep going with a broken mind.

Also, in the greed if (not canon, but good for info), he straight up dies 100,000,000 times and is still going on.

What you guys don't have proof of is Frisk being able to use their power infinitely.

As I've said, Frisk is much more likely to give up here than Subaru. Not sure why that keeps getting ignored.

 

[Tural2004]

It says it on the page. Echidna, the smartest person in the verse, said it was infinite.

The ability also relies on Satella, not Subaru, who will continuously resurrect him forever, because she is immortal.

Btw you are a staff member, right? Shouldn't this match be added by now? Both have CRTs going on but there is nothing that would change the current outcome of battle given to the reasonings of inconclusive votes

 

[Barbar01]

Frisk FRA

 

[Phoenks]

Btw you are a staff member, right? Shouldn't this match be added by now? Both have CRTs going on but there is nothing that would change the current outcome of battle give to the reasonings of inconclusive votes

I'm not a staff on the VSBW, only FCOC. My powers do not extend to this wiki. I'm a normal member here.

 

[Fezzih_007]

"He also experiences intense trauma with each death which can cause him great psychological distress. For this reason, he tends not to rely on "Return by Death", using it only as a last resort."

How is this guy gonna use that ability infinite times if using it even a few times causes him trauma?

That's Arc 1-4 Subaru, not the one we using. And also, is not his death in particually that's causing him trauma, is seeing his friends dies a bunch of times. He have like a breakdown two times, and one of them is not a thing that Frisk can do to cause trauma.

"And there is no known limit to how many times they can return. This ability allows Subaru a near endless amount of second chances"

How are we so sure he can do it infinite times?

Because It never showed a limit, and Subaru died like a 100 Million of times in a If story, and came back just fine.

I also don't see the whole mind hax BFR thing on the profile

Is missing then.

 

[Fezzih_007]

We will see that. I just wish staff members actually argued instead of dropping their opinions and disappearing. That's not how a discussion works.

I agree that's kind weird.

 

[Phoenks]

If these two don't end up becoming friends via social influencing each other, then Subaru stomps because Frisk will inevitably give up on fighting before Subaru does.

Frisk doesn't have any evidence of doing stuff infinitely, or proof that his determination/willpower is as great as Subaru's. So he will give out before him every single time.

Nobody has countered this.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Btw you are a staff member, right? Shouldn't this match be added by now? Both have CRTs going on but there is nothing that would change the current outcome of battle give to the reasonings of inconclusive votes

Yeah this should be closed and added to the profiles.

 

[ShionAH]

Btw you are a staff member, right? Shouldn't this match be added by now? Both have CRTs going on but there is nothing that would change the current outcome of battle give to the reasonings of inconclusive votes

Frisk has votes so the incon needs to be more.

That doesn't mean he'll stop, though? He can just keep going with a broken mind.

No. He will be passively madness haxed if he dies that much

Also, in the greed if (not canon, but good for info), he straight up dies 100,000,000 times and is still going on.

If its not canon its not really useable is it?

What you guys don't have proof of is Frisk being able to use their power infinitely.

Atleast he doesn't get trauma like him. Plus Frisks Save and Load depends on their will. If they want to come back infinite times they can come back infinite times. The limit is them.

As I've said, Frisk is much more likely to give up here than Subaru. Not sure why that keeps getting ignored.

No one is ignoring it but Frisk using their superior SI, Emphathic Manipulation is way more likely than Subaru not going insane and dying over like a million times or whatever and winning.

That's Arc 1-4 Subaru, not the one we using. And also, is not his death in particually that's causing him trauma, is seeing his friends dies a bunch of times. He have like a breakdown two times, and one of them is not a thing that Frisk can do to cause trauma.

Its not stated on the profile. He just gets PTSD for dying which means he will go insane after some time.

Is missing then.

Very good profile you got there lol

If these two don't end up becoming friends via social influencing each other, then Subaru stomps because Frisk will inevitably give up on fighting before Subaru does.

They will def end up becoming friends or influencing one or the other eventually. Frisk would probably try to do it first try since they are pacifist but Idk about Subaru

Frisk doesn't have any evidence of doing stuff infinitely, or proof that his determination/willpower is as great as Subaru's. So he will give out before him every single time.

Their determination is def great as Subarus. Determination is extremely strong and even using a bit of it needs extremely high will, frisk literally radiates DT. The DT is so strong it melts monsters lol

Yeah this should be closed and added to the profiles.

No. Theres 3 votes for frisk which means the incon needs more votes.

 

[ShionAH]

Plus even if Frisk gave up on Save and Load how does Subaru get through Low-Godly?

 

[Phoenks]

No. He will be passively madness haxed if he dies that much

You have no proof of that. He hasn't gone mad, and even if he does go mad, that won't stop him from coming back. Like I said multiple times, he isn't even the one controlling his resurrection, it's Satella, an immortal being who will always bring him back.

If its not canon its not really useable is it?

It is useable in the sense that it gives us an idea of how endless Subaru's power and will can be. It's just not canon to the main timeline.

Its not stated on the profile. He just gets PTSD for dying which means he will go insane after some time.

That doesn't mean he will stop. One again.

Their determination is def great as Subarus. Determination is extremely strong and even using a bit of it needs extremely high will, frisk literalyl radiates DT. The DT is so strong it melts monsters lol

He doesn't have any feats of mental endurance anywhere close to Subaru, which is what I mean by willpower here.

No. Theres 3 votes for frisk which means the incon needs more votes.

7-3 is still grounds for inconclusive.

Plus even if Frisk gave up on Save and Load how does Subaru get through Low-Godly?

He isn't always at immense determination, it will eventually waver after a while.

 

[Tural2004]

If these two don't end up becoming friends via social influencing each other, then Subaru stomps because Frisk will inevitably give up on fighting before Subaru does.

Frisk doesn't have any evidence of doing stuff infinitely, or proof that his determination/willpower is as great as Subaru's. So he will give out before him every single time.

Nobody has countered this.

I already did the previous page. Frisk has been stated to never give up by Asriel and while normal limit to human determination is 8-B, Frisk's determination can go as high as 2-B, essentially stacking multiple infinities on the top of another.

Let's ignore this and assume even a single death can mentally scar Frisk. Human souls still exist for thousands of years after death and souls in general are implied to be immortal. At any point Frisk can just decide to try again. And since Undertale variant of Determination would only exist in Frisk, they will always manage to come back regardless of how much their will breaks.

There is other ways Frisk can win as well but I firmly stand on my opinion that they will become friends. You were talking about millions of death in the previous page, right? If we assume they just die 3 million times each and every death takes a minute, that's still over a decade and both characters will remember all of it unlike usual. It is simply impossible for them to not try talk it out by then.

7-3 is still grounds for inconclusive.

There are 9 votes for inconclusive if we include our votes as well. And some of votes for Frisk was after the grace ended.

 

[ShionAH]

You have no proof of that. He hasn't gone mad

"He also experiences intense trauma with each death which can cause him great psychological distress"
Its common sense.

and even if he does go mad, that won't stop him from coming back. Like I said multiple times, he isn't even the one controlling his resurrection, it's Satella, an immortal being who will always bring him back.

Okay what good is there to coming back as mad? Thats a self incap.

It is useable in the sense that it gives us an idea of how endless Subaru's power and will can be. It's just not canon to the main timeline.

No. If its not canon we cannot use it any way.

That doesn't mean he will stop. One again.

If he gets PTSD from it how will he fight?

He doesn't have any feats of mental endurance anywhere close to Subaru, which is what I mean by willpower here.

The mental endurance that gives him trauma after dying? Frisks stamina and endurance is also insane

7-3 is still grounds for inconclusive.

The discussion is still on going plus all the incon votes were before the discussion even started

He isn't always at immense determination, it will eventually waver after a while.

Why are we assuming he wont SI or Emphathic manip before?

I already did the previous page. Frisk has been stated to never give up by Asriel and while normal limit to human determination is 8-B, Frisk's determination can go as high as 2-B, essentially stacking multiple infinities on the top of another.

Let's ignore this and assume even a single death can mentally scar Frisk. Human souls still exist for thousands of years after death and souls in general are implied to be immortal. At any point Frisk can just decide to try again. And since Undertale variant of Determination would only exist in Frisk, they will always manage to come back regardless of how much their will breaks.

There is other ways Frisk can win as well but I firmly stand on my opinion that they will become friends. You were talking about millions of death in the previous page, right? If we assume they just die 3 million times each and every death takes a minute, that's still over a decade and both characters will remember all of it unlike usual. It is simply impossible for them to not try talk it out by then.

There are 9 votes for inconclusive if we include our votes as well. And some of votes for Frisk was after the grace ended.

Frisk using emphathic manipulation or SI will count as a win. You are blatantly ignoring SBA for some reason to make this an incon.

 

[ShionAH]

Idk why you guys are trying to rush it. The discussion is still going on and the 7 votes can change

 

[Tural2004]

Idk why you guys are trying to rush it. The discussion is still going on and the 7 votes can change

It is supposed to change during 24 hours. That's why the grace period exists. And it already ended

 

[ShionAH]

It is supposed to change during 24 hours. That's why the grace period exists. And it already ended

The votes kinda ignored frisks emphathic manipulation that is gonna be added now

 

[Phoenks]

I already did the previous page. Frisk has been stated to never give up by Asriel and while normal limit to human determination is 8-B, Frisk's determination can go as high as 2-B, essentially stacking multiple infinities on the top of another.

This has nothing to do with mental endurance. Asriel saying Frisk will never give up? I don't remember that, but even if they did say that, it's not like that's enough evidence for infinite mental endurance.

Let's ignore this and assume even a single death can mentally scar Frisk. Human souls still exist for thousands of years after death and souls in general are implied to be immortal.

This results in his loss via self-BFR.

"He also experiences intense trauma with each death which can cause him great psychological distress"
Its common sense.

And? He still fights through all of his trauma. His mental endurance is actually wild.

No. If its not canon we cannot use it any way.

It is its own canon, separate from the main timeline.

If he gets PTSD from it how will he fight?

PTSD doesn't just incapacitate you lmfao. He can still keep going just like how he always does in the series.

Why are we assuming he wont SI or Emphathic manip before?

Neither of these works on Subaru.

 

[ShionAH]

And? He still fights through all of his trauma. His mental endurance is actually wild.

Eventually he will break. Its literally his weakness.

It is its own canon, separate from the main timeline.

You answered yourself

PTSD doesn't just incapacitate you lmfao. He can still keep going just like how he always does in the series.

Did he die a million times or even a thousand times without going mad or having any negative effects?

Neither of these works on Subaru.

Because?

 

[Larssx]

Frisk FRA

 

[Phoenks]

Eventually he will break. Its literally his weakness.

Once again, Subaru breaking does not prevent him from fighting. The IF stories go into what happens if Subaru breaks. He just goes down a darker path, but never stops.

You answered yourself

I feel like you aren't understanding. The timelines aren't canon because they don't happen in the story. But they are accurate representations of what would happen if Subaru went down different paths.

Did he die a million times or even a thousand times without going mad or having any negative effects?

He's only died a few hundreds or thousands of times so far in the canon timeline, but he's still pretty fine. He just has a few mental scars and is not the most healthy guy mentally.

Because?

Social Influencing doesn't work on Subaru because his own SI would cancel it out.

Empathic manipulation shouldn't work on Subaru because I'm pretty sure he resists Sirius's ability to do that emphatic hax entire cities.

 

[Tural2004]

This has nothing to do with mental

It has considering your "determination" level is directly related to willpower.

don't remember that, but even if they did say that, i

• Because you want a "happy ending." (Before Galacta Blazing)
• Because you "love your friends." (Before Chaos Slicer)
• Because you "never give up." (Before Chaos Blaster)

And Asriel's whole plan is kinda a never ending game between him and Frisk.

it's not like that's enough evidence for infinite mental endurance.

Asriel has the same level of determination as Frisk at the time. He has grounds to make such a statement.

This results in his loss via self-BFR

Isn't BFR Battle Field Removal? Why would being in soul form count as that? And BFR only works if the opponent can't come back. Frisk can

 

[ShionAH]

Once again, Subaru breaking does not prevent him from fighting. The IF stories go into what happens if Subaru breaks. He just goes down a darker path, but never stops.i

I feel like you aren't understanding. The timelines aren't canon because they don't happen in the story. But they are accurate representations of what would happen if Subaru went down different paths.

Hm I see. So he won't go mad, still voting Frisk because of emphathic manipulation and SI

Social Influencing doesn't work on Subaru because his own SI would cancel it out.

"Got almost half of the whole village to join in his aerobic exercises"

This SI. Is literally NOTHING compared to Frisk.

Empathic manipulation shouldn't work on Subaru because I'm pretty sure he resists Sirius's ability to do that emphatic hax entire cities.

Not on the profile = Irrelevant.

Frisk FRA still until I see proof of him resisting emphathic manipulation and SI on frisks level

 

[ShionAH]

Asriel has the same level of determination as Frisk at the time. He has grounds to make such a statement.

Frisks DT is superior though right?

 

[Phoenks]

"Got almost half of the whole village to join in his aerobic exercises"

This SI. Is literally NOTHING compared to Frisk.

This is one of Subaru's least impressive feats of SI.

But hey, I'll gladly vote inconclusive if we're going to go back on fourth over stuff that isn't even on the profiles.

 

[ShionAH]

This is one of Subaru's least impressive feats of SI.

Is the most impressive above SI an entire race?

But hey, I'll gladly vote inconclusive if we're going to go back on fourth over stuff that isn't even on the profiles.

Frisk needs to be unlocked. I am waiting for a mod to open it so I can add it

 

[Phoenks]

Is the most impressive above SI an entire race?

Well, Subaru's feats are admittedly not as wide spread as Frisk getting the entire underworld to like him, but are focused on influencing characters like Roswaal, Echidna, Beatrice, Royal Candidates, etc etc who are all extremely hard people to influence basically.

It's a lot to go into...

He is also very easily capable of persuading large crowds and even cities of people.

 

[ShionAH]

Well, Subaru's feats are admittedly not as wide spread as Frisk getting the entire underworld to like him, but are focused on influencing characters like Roswaal, Echidna, Beatrice, Royal Candidates, etc etc who are all extremely hard people to influence basically.

It's a lot to go into...

He is also very easily capable of persuading large crowds and even cities of people.

How does that compare then? Frisk was able to influence an entire race (That has over 14000 monsters inside) that hated Frisk with their lives and knew if they beat Frisk they would get their sweet revenge and escape from their torment.

Frisk made friends with all of them-

Theres also stuff like this

Also just realized Frisk can win with sleep hax too.

 

[Robin]

Frisk FRA

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

How does that compare then? Frisk was able to influence an entire race (That has over 14000 monsters inside) that hated Frisk with their lives and knew if they beat Frisk they would get their sweet revenge and escape from their torment.

Frisk made friends with all of them-

Theres also stuff like this

Also just realized Frisk can win with sleep hax too.

Well then Subaru influenced a lot more people considering the population of the entire city of priestella exceeds 300,000

To answer the greed part, Re:Zero overall is a story with multiple endings and stories. The one we are following aka the main route is the envy if, all other routes are canonical in the sense that they are all real but non canonical in the sense that they aren't the envy route.

Empathic manipulation won't work as Subaru resists Sirius who forces your mind and soul to be physically and mentally connected to her via her authority. Which is WAYYY above what Frisk can even attempt to do

Subaru can go infinite number of times as stated by Echidna and his will to live can be broken but he will still persevere for his end goal which in this case would be defeating Frisk. Although of course its a million times more likely that he would simply befriend him

Speaking of which, the reason wincon via making friends is considered falsified is becuz people like Saul Goodman would then start soloing verses like dragon ball which normally do not have SI resistance. Its a really stupid idea, also a friendship is mutual you can't force it on people.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I also vote for incon fra btw and i would need some solid reasoning from the people who voted for Frisk becuz those arguements are definitely not enough

 

[ShionAH]

Well then Subaru influenced a lot more people considering the population of the entire city of priestella exceeds 300,000

Cool doesn't matter as those city people didn't hate him in a unspeakable way.

Empathic manipulation won't work as Subaru resists Sirius who forces your mind and soul to be physically and mentally connected to her via her authority. Which is WAYYY above what Frisk can even attempt to do

Pretty sure thats mind manipulation. She forces you to become her slave she doesn't force you to feel an emotion.

Speaking of which, the reason wincon via making friends is considered falsified is becuz people like Saul Goodman would then start soloing verses like dragon ball which normally do not have SI resistance. Its a really stupid idea

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saul-goodman-vs-goku-breaking-bad-vs-dragon-ball-super.141820/

, also a friendship is mutual you can't force it on people.

Frisk can still make them give up on fighting or just make him their ally.

 

[ShionAH]

I also vote for incon fra btw and i would need some solid reasoning from the people who voted for Frisk becuz those arguements are definitely not enough

SI and Emphathic Manip.