Natsuki Subaru VS Frisk

[Phoenks]

Ah, so Subaru can make Frisk give up, and Frisk can maybe social Influence him, because is way better than Subaru own SI

I just don't know which one will happen first.

I would say there's pretty much no way he's influencing Subaru in any meaningful way.

Also, Frisk's social influencing is no where near Subaru's lol. Subaru has piles upon piles of feats related to social influencing.

Such as getting Beatrice to be his contract spirit in the first place. Which no one in 400 years could do. And was basically so impossible that Roswaal (A genius who has been alive for 400 years and set up Arc 4 to be completely against Subaru), Echidna (The literal witch of greed who has pretty much endless knowledge about the world), and the gospels (Which can predict the future, even through most of Subaru's resets) could not predict that outcome. It basically wasn't even supposed to exist as a possibility.

Or getting almost every main girl in the series to become fond of him. Including those such as Echidna who have been alive for hundreds of years and have had people like Roswaal obsessing over them.

He's constantly capable of easily influencing entire crowds of people with his words. Including many notable names in Re: Zero.

And there's much, much more, in every Arc of the story.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I think my vote will still be inconclusive, since they both have wincons that may happen.

Also

Such as getting Beatrice to be his contract spirit in the first place. Which no one in 400 years could do.

I mean, even If is kind impressive, that feat was after 4 loops of him not succeeding in doing so, and gathering information to know about Beatrice, that's is a lot of time, If he did on first try that would be pretty crazy, but that take a lot time, Frisk os able to do so on his first try, because of IA.

Or getting almost every main girl in the series to become fond of him. Including those such as Echidna who have been alive for hundreds of years and have had people like Roswaal obsessing over them.

I don't think having a Harem count as SI

He's constantly capable of easily influencing entire crowds of people with his words. Including many notable names in Re: Zero.

Frisk is also able to do that, since he is able to befriend the entre underground, that is also Very hostile to him.

Well, i can still see Subaru making him give up before him got influenced, but Frisk chances are still very high.

 

[Phoenks]

I mean, even If is kind impressive, that feat was after 4 loops of him not succeeding in doing so, and gathering information to know about Beatrice, that's is a lot of time, If he did on first try that would be pretty crazy, but that take a lot time, Frisk os able to do so on his first try, because of IA.

As I've said, this was something that Roswaal and Echidna could not predict, and they both know about RBD and how Subaru can use it. And they both knew a lot more about Beatrice than Subaru does. Like, a lot more.

Even the Gospels can predict the future despite Subaru's RBD being able to create different futures.

I don't think having a Harem count as SI

It's not a harem, nor is it about that.

It's about how much charisma and influence Subaru can have if he tries.

Frisk is also able to do that, since he is able to befriend the entre underground, that is also Very hostile to him.

The monsters he is influencing are much easier to influence than everyone I've brought up for Subaru though.

Not to mention, if you want to bring up Subaru needing RBD to do social influencing stuff... What about Frisk? He constantly has to SAVE and LOAD before he can get to those outcomes. Many many times more than Subaru needs to influence people. Subaru was always capable of influencing entire crowds since Arc 1 of his story, and he only became more influencing as time went on.

 

[Phoenks]

Also read this part of the Weaknesses section "Someone with equal and higher amounts of Determination (as it exists in Undertale) will result in their ability to SAVE and LOAD being disabled"

Subaru's willpower is at the very worst comparable to Frisk, and at the best his is LEAGUES greater than his.

By the way if this means that Subaru's willpower/determination will literally nullify Frisk's main abilities, then Subaru stomps as any attack from Beatrice would kill Frisk permanently.

 

[Fezzih_007]

As I've said, this was something that Roswaal and Echidna could not predict, and they both know about RBD and how Subaru can use it. And they both knew a lot more about Beatrice than Subaru does. Like, a lot more.

Even the Gospels can predict the future despite Subaru's RBD being able to create different futures.

I ignored that before because this don't say anything about Subaru SI, and don't countered any of my points. But before i the fact debunked this argument, can you provide a scan of they saying that they not predict Beatrice making a pact with Subaru? Because i don't remenber right now.

It's not a harem, nor is it about that.

It's about how much charisma and influence Subaru can have if he tries.

The character can have friends and people loving, that's have nothing to do with SI.

The monsters he is influencing are much easier to influence than everyone I've brought up for Subaru though.

Not they not, the monster are trapped on the underground for hundred of years, and the only way to escape is using 7 human souls. They already have six, and they need to kill Frisk to escape, and he still able to talk down everyone that have mortal intentions against him, that's way more impressive than Subaru able to make friends.

Not to mention, if you want to bring up Subaru needing RBD to do social influencing stuff... What about Frisk? He constantly has to SAVE and LOAD before he can get to those outcomes.

Frisk can Influence people in one try, because he is that good.

Many many times more than Subaru needs to influence people. Subaru was always capable of influencing entire crowds since Arc 1 of his story, and he only became more influencing as time went on.

He only feat of influence entire crows as on arc 5, i don't know where do you take Arc 1 of nowhere.


And also, Subaru don't have SI on his profile, so this argument is kinda pointless.

My vote is still inconclusive.

 

[ShionAH]

By the way if this means that Subaru's willpower/determination will literally nullify Frisk's main abilities, then Subaru stomps as any attack from Beatrice would kill Frisk permanently.

What is Subarus willpower feats?

 

[Tural2004]

Hey, I am pretty sure Frisk's determination isn't infinite actually. It says on his page under weaknesses that he will eventually give up.

It also says that it is extremely unlikely and that weakness only comes from other souls as all of them gave up. And none of them is actually comparable to Frisk. Even Asriel talks about Frisk "never gives up" and mentions how they are exceptional. He also considers killing Frisk 1,000,000 times over as a real possibility. Not to mention, at the peak determination, they get to 2-B durability. Considering an average human caps around 8-B, that's infinities upon infinities difference. Pretty much infinity determination you speak of. (Though it is not exactly at this key. But still should downscale to some degree)

Also read this part of the Weaknesses section "Someone with equal and higher amounts of Determination (as it exists in Undertale) will result in their ability to SAVE and LOAD being disabled"

Subaru's willpower is at the very worst comparable to Frisk, and at the best his is LEAGUES greater than his.

FYI while it is still related to conventional willpower, "Determination" is a substance found in Undertale. Subaru doesn't have that. Not to mention, Frisk can create "Last Dream" which is described as "The goal of Determination." This is literally the highest possible level of determination.

I would say there's pretty much no way he's influencing Subaru in any meaningful way.

And why not exactly? The last time I checked, Subaru was a good guy. I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to have a peaceful solution.

Such as getting Beatrice to be his contract spirit in the first place. Which no one in 400 years could do. And was basically so impossible that Roswaal (A genius who has been alive for 400 years and set up Arc 4 to be completely against Subaru), Echidna (The literal witch of greed who has pretty much endless knowledge about the world), and the gospels (Which can predict the future, even through most of Subaru's resets) could not predict that outcome. It basically wasn't even supposed to exist as a possibility.

Frisk can befriend an entire race that was previously hostile to them. Some of the most notable examples include Mettaton (who was originally designed as a human eradication device), Undyne (who was hell-bent on killing a human most out of anyone and is the only monster to have determination), and Sans (Who was initially completely nihilistic to point where slaughtering his brother and half of Underground still wouldn't make him take action). The only being Frisk couldn't befriend was Omega Flowey who had LV almost 500 times that of maximum value. Even then, Frisk could make still make other human souls inside switch sides by merely calling for their help (Heck, they can befriend somebody by just knocking on the door or make someone addicted to them by clapping). Frisk later on can make Flowey, a soulless being, have a complete breakdown. And by the end of True Pacifist, he is impacted enough to completely change his way.

An unpredictable future has got nothing on Frisk as well. The ability to SAVE is multiple times mentioned to be the power to change fate and it is even mentioned as such by Toby Fox. "Fate" itself is a prevailing theme both in Undertale and Deltarune with the outcome never changing in the latter regardless of what you do, contrasting Undertale. It is not just that. Flowey mentions that he has seen every possible outcome ever and sees everything as predictable with the only exception being Frisk (Flowey believes them to be Chara at this point) whom he never could predict. It is also mentioned in True Pacifist Route with Asriel saying how Frisk is special and the only one fun to play around.

Or getting almost every main girl in the series to become fond of him. Including those such as Echidna who have been alive for hundreds of years and have had people like Roswaal obsessing over them.

Seriously?

The monsters he is influencing are much easier to influence than everyone I've brought up for Subaru though.

That is still an entire civilization and the whole game happens in a day.

Not to mention, if you want to bring up Subaru needing RBD to do social influencing stuff... What about Frisk? He constantly has to SAVE and LOAD before he can get to those outcomes. Many many times more than Subaru needs to influence people

Honestly, I feel like you are a bit biased. There is no canonical number for how many times Frisk needed to LOAD. It can be 0 times or a billion times. But Frisk canonically can do all of them in the first try considering there are corresponding dialogues.

Besides that, Frisk's capability to read people is on another level. "Check" alone can provide information about one's hobbies, mind-set, behavior, lifestyle, etc. And their ability alongside narration borders on mind reading. I am pretty sure there are seldom characters in fiction who can tell that a quiche is psychologically damaged just by looking at it. Or some other examples:

Papyrus remembered a bad joke Sans told and is frowning.

Glyde is thinking of new slang for the word "cool." Like "freakadacious"

By the way if this means that Subaru's willpower/determination will literally nullify Frisk's main abilities,

It will not as explained above.

then Subaru stomps as any attack from Beatrice would kill Frisk permanently.

Again, why do you think the first thing he will try to do is kill Frisk when both sides would be open to talk it out? "Is will to kill" doesn't "will definitely and absolutely try to kill". In actual battle, Subaru would have no chance of winning, to begin with. Frisk needs to win just one time and they can just pull Omega Flowey on Subaru.

 

[Dragonite007]

By the way if this means that Subaru's willpower/determination will literally nullify Frisk's main abilities, then Subaru stomps as any attack from Beatrice would kill Frisk permanently.

Ehhh... No.

Determination is soul power in Undertale, having will power is not give to you the same properties.

The weakness is for characters like Omega Flowey, that has more determination than Frisk, because he has 6 souls

 

[Fezzih_007]

What is Subarus willpower feats?

Dying over 10000 times under a loop of 10 seconds, and not giving up
Dying over 23 times in a loop that is almost impossible to solve, with 6 enemies, with one alone would already being super difficulty to deal, in a spam of 10 minutes.(but is very context heavy, so i not go in detail)
And he also turned into a child, put on a coliseum to fight a bunch of monsters, and despite dying atleast 30 every time, he still din't give up.

But thas't kind don't matter, since he would need supernatural willpower to counter Frisk.

 

[Phoenks]

"It also says that it is extremely unlikely and that weakness only comes from other souls as all of them gave up. And none of them is actually comparable to Frisk. Even Asriel talks about Frisk "never gives up" and mentions how they are exceptional. He also considers killing Frisk 1,000,000 times over as a real possibility."

If there is any chance that Frisk will give up, then Subaru will eventually stomp because RBD is infinite.

If Determination is specifically a Undertale concept that isn't subject to verse equalization, then sure, I guess then Subaru's willpower will not disable his abilities.

Though, I would be a little surprised if Determination is treated that way. Since in the verse it does just seem like willpower.

 

[Phoenks]

Dying over 10000 times under a loop of 10 seconds, and not giving up
Dying over 23 times in a loop that is almost impossible to solve, with 6 enemies, with one alone would already being super difficulty to deal, in a spam of 10 minutes.(but is very context heavy, so i not go in detail)
And he also turned into a child, put on a coliseum to fight a bunch of monsters, and despite dying atleast 30 every time, he still din't give up.

But thas't kind don't matter, since he would need supernatural willpower to counter Frisk.

He does have supernatural willpower is just wasn't added to his page, since it's pretty outdated.

There is a CRT to revise it right now.

 

[ShionAH]

Though, I would be a little surprised if Determination is treated that way. Since in the verse it does just seem like willpower.

I don't think willpower lets you play with timelines

 

[Fezzih_007]

That is still an entire civilization and the whole game happens in a day.

The entire game happened in a day? Because Frisk actually done some sleeping on Toriel house before.

 

[ShionAH]

The entire game happened in a day? Because Frisk actually done some sleeping on Toriel house before.

Frisk only needs 2 hours of sleep

 

[Dragonite007]

Though, I would be a little surprised if Determination is treated that way. Since in the verse it does just seem like willpower.

No, determination is related to souls, so much so that Alphis can extract and add to monsters

 

[Phoenks]

Can you guys respond to the main argument, though?

Which is that Frisk will eventually give up?

Even if it's unlikely or takes millions of attempts, if there is any chance that he gives up Subaru will win this fight because RBD is infinite and isn't even really reliant on him.

Satella will just keep on resurrecting him til he wins.

 

[ShionAH]

Can you guys respond to the main argument, though?

Which is that Frisk will eventually give up?

Even if it's unlikely or takes millions of attempts, if there is any chance that he gives up Subaru will win this fight because RBD is infinite and isn't even really reliant on him.

Satella will just keep on resurrecting him til he wins.

Frisk has never shown to give up so probably never. Plus Frisk is going through massive revisions so this match should be on hold.

 

[Phoenks]

Frisk has never shown to give up so probably never. Plus Frisk is going through massive revisions so this match should be on hold.

So "probably never"

That isn't enough evidence to say it's infinite, especially if that's still a weakness on his page.

 

[ShionAH]

So "probably never"

That isn't enough evidence to say it's infinite, especially if that's still a weakness on his page.

The weakness is not actually frisks weakness its a general weakness of DT

 

[Fezzih_007]

I still think is incon.

Btw, OP i think you should bloodlust Frisk.

 

[Phoenks]

It isn't incon unless you have actual evidence that his power is infinite. Which doesn't seem to be the case.

Determination isn't infinite in Undertale.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Gonna vote Subaru fra

 

[Epiccheev]

Greed Subaru definitely wins. Main route Subaru probably does too since he was able to keep going after some real brutal shit

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Subaru fra

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Greed Subaru definitely wins. Main route Subaru probably does too since he was able to keep going after some real brutal shit

Greedbaru shit stomps frisk lmao

 

[Phoenks]

Tbh if Subaru dies enough he can change into a completely different person who may actually activate the BFR. (Even if that could result in Beatrice's death)

In the Pride IF story for example, it only took 80 deaths to Elsa for him to completely change as a person.

However, that was at the beginning of the story when Subaru could have been altered many different ways. It'd probably take a lot more than that now.


Wait a minute what again stops the BFR? I don't think one use of Al Shamak would actually kill Beatrice. Am I forgetting something?

 

[ShionAH]

Okay I dont wanna rude or swear but is no one ******* listening to me? Theres a big CRT going on right now on frisk so this should be on hold.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Okay I dont wanna rude or swear but is no one ******* listening to me? Theres a big CRT going on right now on frisk so this should be on hold

Ok, i atleast gonna stop for now
Even trought none of the abilites of Frisk gonna give him the win here, but okay.

 

[Phoenks]

I mean Subaru also has a CRT going on.

I looked at all the stuff that Frisk is getting, and I'm pretty sure even if all of it got accepted, it wouldn't change this match.

But hey, if you want to put the match on hold that's fine.

 

[ShionAH]

Ok, i atleast gonna stop for now
Even trought none of the abilites of Frisk gonna give him the win here, but okay.

Their Aura and stuff will happen. Besides isnt this match a normal incon? Both of them just become friends

 

[ShionAH]

I mean Subaru also has a CRT going on.

I looked at all the stuff that Frisk is getting, and I'm pretty sure even if all of it got accepted, it wouldn't change this match.

But hey, if you want to put the match on hold that's fine.

Why is frisk even losing again? Dont they become friends and call it a day?

 

[Phoenks]

You know what actually them becoming friends could happen.

If SBA starts them off wanting to kill each other, but then they talk and realize "wow, this guy doesn't actually want to fight" then they'll probably actually just not fight. If they're in character, then killing the other would need a lot of context beyond just "I want to kill this guy."

Huh. To be honest, that's fair.

I'll vote inconclusive for that.

 

[Fezzih_007]

What happens if we bloodlust them?

 

[ShionAH]

What happens if we bloodlust them?

Weird shit

 

[Phoenks]

What happens if we bloodlust them?

Uh. Both of them kill each other a lot. Though, its weird. If Frisk starts with immense determination due to being bloodlusted, but his speed is equalized at the same time, then he wouldn't be able to blitz Subaru and would get slower as his determination gets weaker.

If he doesn't start with immense determination then he will probably end up blitzing at some point for a while.

But regardless of these two scenarios, I think Subaru kind of just ends up reviving again and again until Frisk no longer has immense determination.

And after that they both just end up killing each other until Frisk gives up because his determination falls before Subaru's will.

And so Subaru reigns victorious after probably millions of deaths.

OR

After Frisk runs short on determination, Subaru finally has the chance to activate BFR without getting speed blitzed and that's the end of the match.

 

[ShionAH]

If SBA starts them off wanting to kill each other, but then they talk and realize "wow, this guy doesn't actually want to fight" then they'll probably actually just not fight. If they're in character, then killing the other would need a lot of context beyond just "I want to kill this guy."

Fun fact SBA doesnt mean they want to kill actually. It means they want to win.

 

[ShionAH]

Uh. Both of them kill each other a lot. Though, its weird. If Frisk starts with immense determination due to being bloodlusted, but his speed is equalized at the same time, then he wouldn't be able to blitz Subaru and would get slower as his determination gets weaker.

If he doesn't start with immense determination then he will probably end up blitzing at some point for a while.

But regardless of these two scenarios, I think Subaru kind of just ends up reviving again and again until Frisk no longer has immense determination.

And after that they both just end up killing each other until Frisk gives up because his determination falls before Subaru's will.

And so Subaru reigns victorious after probably millions of deaths.

OR

After Frisk runs short on determination, Subaru finally has the chance to activate BFR without getting speed blitzed and that's the end of the match.

Is his BFR above universal+ range? Anyways I doubt frisk will actually attack. They will use empahthic manipulation and win unless Subaru resist it. Actıally yeah whats stopping frisk from using emphathic manipulation?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Is his BFR above universal+ range? Anyways I doubt frisk will actually attack. They will use empahthic manipulation and win unless Subaru resist it. Actıally yeah whats stopping frisk from using emphathic manipulation?

They don't have EM, that's what stoping them.
Also, the BFR send you to another dimension.

 

[ShionAH]

They don't have EM, that's what stoping them.

If only there was a CRT for that

Also, the BFR send you to another dimension.

Timeline>Dimension as far as I know

 

[Fezzih_007]

If only there was a CRT for that

I hope someone does that, so we can discuss, but i guess he should have minor emphatetic manipulation

Timeline>Dimension as far as I know

Did i mention that when Beatrice uses the BFR, she also shutdown the senses of the opponent, meaning that would'd be able to escape?