Natsu and Gray vs Halibel 5-8-0 (please come to discuss)

[Zabazab]

Re:Zero– first verse to have resistance to danmaku

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Re:Zero– first verse to have resistance to danmaku

there is already a verse with rain dodging feats
we are late to the party

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Then natsu says​

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"FOR MY FRIENDS, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"​

​

And gets a power boost of ... x1000, because nakama power I guess​

​

gg​

all his friends watching as he gets mauled to death by a wolf:

 

[Tatsumi504]

currently its accepted as such plus the verse treats it as skill, i dont really know what else to say to you..
Anyways, is there anything else that needs to be added for Natsu/Gray?
Halibel is just massively dodging all of their attacks here either via skill or however you want to take it as

I can't remember when skill feats ever needed to be accepted. Skill is subjective and we quantify it based off feats the character performs but there's a difference between skill, supernatural abilities and bs.
I previously saw something about transcending via skill but that's either just an ability or bs same as a character cutting through space/time via skill. We can't just accept physically impossible feats to be skill because the author wrote it that way.
Unless one's size were to be reduced drastically, dodging rain drops or grains of sand is impossible without actually phasing through them. Re:zero easily has various quantifiable skill feats without falling back on this impossibility every time.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I can't remember when skill feats ever needed to be accepted. Skill is subjective and we quantify it based off feats the character performs but there's a difference between skill, supernatural abilities and bs.
I previously saw something about transcending via skill but that's either just an ability or bs same as a character cutting through space/time via skill. We can't just accept physically impossible feats to be skill because the author wrote it that way.

its literally fiction. none of these abilities are even possible irl

Unless one's size were to be reduced drastically, dodging rain drops or grains of sand is impossible without actually phasing through them. Re:zero easily has various quantifiable skill feats without falling back on this impossibility every time.

and no there is no phasing going on or size manipulation

 

[First_Witch]

I love CP

Please dont ever abbreviate Pegasus' name like this ever again.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Anyways, is there anything else that needs to be added for Natsu/Gray?
Halibel is just massively dodging all of their attacks here

AoE that covers kilometers of range, and Natsu can increase his speed with Lightning mode.

 

[First_Witch]

its literally fiction. none of these abilities are even possible irl

and no there is no phasing going on or size manipulation

Absolutly not how it works. Skill feats need to adhere a basic string of logic to be quantifiable as skill. Its actually shocking how people still try to pass of cutting concepts or trancending the very concept of combat or some silly shit like that as skill.

 

[Zabazab]

Absolutly not how it works. Skill feats need to adhere a basic string of logic to be quantifiable as skill. Its actually shocking how people still try to pass of cutting concepts or trancending the very concept of combat or some silly shit like that as skill.

Martial-Art Skillcels are malding over Reality-Breaking Skillchads

Laying the nerves within his body bare, he engaged in the hyper-dimensional act of savagery that was exposing them to the wind, and as he ascended, Cecilus’s outstretched leg hit something.

It was neither a convenient wall nor building. What had been hit was, from the cityscape being destroyed as it was engulfed in the battle between Cecilus and the heroine, a fragment of the rubble that had been whirled up, a single grain of gravel.

That, he used as a foothold.

Cecilus: “Shwee.”

Using the exceedingly faint sensation that had struck the sole of his foot as a foothold, Cecilus’s body leapt through the air.

To avoid the rising achromatic destruction from catching up to him, Cecilus stepped again onto blown up splinters of wood and shattered fragments of window glass, and finally stepping onto a slightly larger cinder of ash, he escaped higher.

Why was he able to do it? He could do it simply because he could, he would make all those who laid eyes upon him believe so.

Disregarding various logical and general notions, Cecilus’s action of fleeing to the sky was an outrage against common sense. Those who witnessed it might have called it a miracle, but for Cecilus, this was only the beginning, nothing more than a handful of the miracles that arrived to color the world at various moments each and every day.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

"You cant break the laws of physics with skill!!"
"schwee!1!!!!"

 

[First_Witch]

Martial-Art Skillcels are malding over Reality-Breaking Skillchads

Son, my own Skill wankery verses are falling into the reality breaking, basic logic tells you that shit like that is bull.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The unleashed spear of light pierced into the magma, and a beat later, everything within a radius of a few meters around it had compressed, and was immediately blown asunder. The imploded magma and the destructive force that had caused said implosion then spread out to the surrounding area, scattering it over a radius nearly ten times the size of the initial compressed space.
Rendered speechless, albeit he knew himself to be out of range, Al reflexively covered his head with his arm to protect it; with his vision covered he could still that though that single shot alone had been horrifyingly powerful, the bombardment still continued without cease.
One, two, three, four shots were fired in rapid succession, each shot reshaping the form of the Imperial Capital.
Streets ceased to be streets, and land ceased to be land.
They were fired one after another, pursuing Cecilus as he ran on the ground, but even he――
Cecilus: “Ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta――!!!”
Splatters of the scorching heat known as magma were scattered about, the gaze of the blinks of destruction known as flashing light were evaded, and Cecilus broke through the white dust in a mad dash through the space where death rained down incessantly.
All the footholds had already disappeared, and through a space where magma would soak one’s feet in the place of solid ground, Cecilus swiftly ran with zori that did not seem to have any sort of fireproof quality.
Bearing witness to that sight, what flashed through Al’s mind was the absurd image of a shinobi running on water―― the technique of stepping forth with their left foot before their right foot sank, then stepping forth with their right foot before their left foot sank.
Undoubtedly, Cecilus was performing that not on water, but on magma.
Al: “That shouldn’t be possible!?”
Cecilus: “As long as a person thinks that way, they’ll never be able to do it!”-Arc, 8, Chapter 43

Memes aside once you hit transcendent levels like Ceci and Halibel, these guys are clearly disregarding logic, it's supernatural at this point.

 

[First_Witch]

Am I missing something or why are you quoting to me fairly reasonable displays of skills that do not break reality, the laws of physics and space?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Martial-Art Skillcels are malding over Reality-Breaking Skillchads

Simply being fiction is not an excuse to write off supernatural abilities, feats as skill when it's BS. The scan you've sent is another impossibility as it breaks newton's 3rd law.
The one from CP is still well within the realm of possibility albeit one might as well give Cecilus subjective reality since it seems he can perform any physical action so long as he believes it's possible.

 

[Zabazab]

Contrary to popular belief, they do have limits to the dodging too:

Through the countless cracks formed throughout its body, it began to shine, and in the next moment, aiming in every direction with quite literally no blind spots, a rain of light―― nay, an undodgeable mist of light was unleashed.

Supposing its nature was that of raindrops, then the Sword Saint, the Blue Lightning, and the Admirer would all be able to evade it.

But, in the case it was that of particles of mist, then even those transcendent beings would have trouble evading.

 

[VortechsTG]

AoE that covers kilometers of range, and Natsu can increase his speed with Lightning mode.

If Natsu can and will use aoe with such a large range and no gaps to dodge through early in the battle I am willing to vote for them.

 

[First_Witch]

Simply being fiction is not an excuse to write off supernatural abilities, feats as skill when it's BS. The scan you've sent is another impossibility as it breaks newton's 3rd law.

Nah, you can bullshit around that reasonably with a mixture of speed, center of gravity shifting and maybe reducing shit like air resistance. Mind you, youre absolutly right that it is stupid, but you can at least reach that point from the more reasonable "stepping off from rubble midair", unlike proper reality breaking stuff.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It's a bit absurd that a third character was added before there was even a proper debate.

I din't actually added Wendy trought, I just consider It.

 

[VortechsTG]

I din't actually added Wendy trought, I just consider It.

Yeah, my bad.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sneaks into a room with Goz, who has insane hearing.



Shows up to save Groovy without being noticed, despite his insane sense of smell.

All that counters is by far the least needed counter for Natsu. My point still stands

 

[Zabazab]

aoe with such a large range and no gaps to dodge

To be fair;

Olbart avoided the showy attack, but right after, Yorna struck the roof with her heel. Then, one-by-one, the roof tiles rose and began to float, revolving around in midair.

Drawing an extremely large spiral across the entirety of the roof, the circumference of the whirlpool narrowed towards Olbart at the center―― Just like a tornado. And then――

Yorna: “Why don’t you show me some of your shinobi techniques on how to escape from a place without an opening?”

Before she finished speaking, Yorna’s outstretched hand squeezed tight.

Immediately after, the whirling tornado of tiles engulfed Olbart and compressed him into the center in one fell swoop. The tiles collided with each other relentlessly, and the sound of a fierce, all-crushing impact rang out.

Even a somewhat robust human body would not be able to withstand the pressure at the nexus of this fierce destruction. It would be crushed, with no chance of survival.

Rui: “Au…”

Witnessing the same thing, Louis too gasped at its exuberant destructive power.

In response to Rui’s reaction, Yorna quietly replied, “I’m sorry to have frightened you”,

Yorna: “I started all this on a whim of mine. I feel terrible about the way you look…”

Olbart: “Oioi, don’t’cha go thinkin’ we’re done here. I’m tellin’ ya, the fact that I’m still alive even tho’ I’m a geezer means it’ll take a lot ta kill me, ya know?”

Yorna: “――Hk.”

Just as Yorna was about to turn around, she heard that comment and her fox ears perked up. Taking a look towards it, the voice she’d heard had come from a whirlpool of roof tiles that had gathered at their center, crushing it―― No, it had come from behind it.

Accompanied by a rattle, the voice that came from among the debris of the broken roof tiles was that of Olbart, unharmed despite the fact he’d been at the core of the vortex of devastation.

The monstrous old man waved his hand, smiling with a malicious look on his face,

Olbart: “Yo. And that’s the shinobi’s technique of escapin’ when there’s no openin’. Ya satisfied?”

 

[CloverDragon03]

ReZero characters generally have every sense enhanced + intuition based ESP

Still can't do anything about the Death Manipulation resistance

deadspot is powernull so he can negate it via that

Natsu has his own Power Null via just burning away his enemy's attacks so good luck with that

they are not really comparable at all in skill
Like Halibel can straight up dodge raindrops in a storm or sand in a sandstorm and upscales from people like Elsa Granhiert that can dodge a room blowing up without exiting it
Just hitting him would be a challenge and he can spawn in an unlimited amount of 4 clones
memorizing attack patterns would be smth along the lines of old wilhelm who is around Ram's level of skill who was stated to be an eternity of training below Theresia who Halibel upscales from (and he would absolutely fodderize her...)

Dodging raindrops and stuff doesn't really translate to a direct fight against someone, whereas Natsu will memorize Halibel's every move. Also, Ram has no such feat on her profile, so that equating doesn't work at all here

Plus, Natsu's known to get around opponents he can't hit by using all 5 of his senses at once as a sort of pseudo-prediction

i think the main issue is that gray and natsu wouldnt even be able to hit him....

Yeah and I think Natsu alone could do so. Vote's unchanged

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zabazab Stop your going to guy these guys a heart attack lol.

This match seems to be devolving into another skill debate, and not really about Natsu vs Halibel anymore.

Like ignoring all the rain dodging, and dodging where there is no opening bs, nobody ever talks about other stuff due to being hyper-fixated on those feats. Other stuff is forgotten ie like Olbart not taking damage from attacks cause he releases the power of it into the ground

Boom , the impact of the crash shook the earth, and a cloud of dust ascended from the smashed ground as if there had been an explosion. The dust rained down upon the heads of the rebels who had been stopped by Olbart.
Perhaps, Olbart would have been smashed to pieces after being struck by so much firepower. However――
Garfiel: “Wha…”
Garfiel’s eyes widened at the sight before his eyes.
Before his eyes, Garfiel’s fists had slammed into Olbart’s head from both sides, as if sandwiching him. There had been a solid impact, a resistance, which Garfiel had felt through the recoil in his arms.
Despite this, the old man, his head caught between Garfiel’s fists, showed his white teeth and smile, and then,
Olbart: “Incredible, isn’t it? I just released the power of yer attack onto the ground.”
Garfiel: “――Ah.”
Olbart: “Well, the ground exploded ‘cause you’ve got some dangerous arm strength, tho’.”-Arc 7, Chapter 95

Ceci also has a feat like that too, where he like redirects the force of the attack against him. So that Ram feat from way back about diminishing the force of her opponent's attacks, turned out to as usual, be something more skilled people can pull off.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I notice that Re:Zero VS threads always devolve into being about the hyper-inflated skill feats

 

[VortechsTG]

To be fair;

I was thinking about this already but it shouldn't work on such a large scale. He still needs somewhere to escape to.

 

[Zabazab]

Like ignoring all the rain dodging, and dodging where there is no opening bs, nobody ever talks about stuff like Olbart not taking damage from attacks cause he releases the power of it into the ground

This is also used by Reid, as well as Garfiel against Mezoreia I believe.


Anyways, this fight is basically a 4v2 where Halibel's advantages include stealth and invisibility that can't be detected by those with enhanced senses and ESP, the ability to slip into the earth and move freely through it, continuous production of clones, casting illusions of him being in multiple places at once by Walking Really Good (Killua ripoff), using switching-with-a-log jutsu, and he can make his presence appear where he isn't while erasing his presence where he is.

I was thinking about this already but it shouldn't work on such a large scale. He still needs somewhere to escape to.

Into the earth tbh

 

[LordGinSama]

One of the biggest issues here is that Re:Zero is a ******* novel so there are quite literally zero ways to accurately to tell how exactly a character is moving.

I still also don't understand how dodging rain = muh skill god, like that's just an evasive feat which doesn't translate into things like striking skill. I also still have yet to figure out why that's so impressive, there's a few factors to take into consideration like ya know the size of the rainstorm. (I.E the area they were surrounded by.)

 

[VortechsTG]

Halibel can also drag them deep underground for the record but that runs into the problem where they could probably break out.

Into the earth tbh

Which is also the issue with this.

 

[Zabazab]

I also still have yet to figure out why that's so impressive, there's a few factors to take into consideration like ya know the size of the rainstorm. (I.E the area they were surrounded by.)

Gin it's presented as impressive because You Physically Cannot Do It, a human is too big to dodge rain.

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway Natsu is a pretty good counter for close combat skill gods for the fact that he can engulf himself in flames, and with heat like his I really wouldn't suggest getting into close range with him without proper resistance.

Skill doesn't mean a whole lot if your just gonna burn yourself in the process of fighting.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Halibel can also drag them deep underground for the record but that runs into the problem where they could probably break out.

He probally would't, since Halibel Lifting Strenght is lower than Natsu and Gray.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gin it's presented as impressive because You Physically Cannot Do It, a human is too big to dodge rain.

I never said it wasn't impressive, I'm asking why it's being treated as this "I can dodge anything!" thingy people are doing. Same goes for other series btw, I just see it with Re:Zero the most often.

Is that feat ever going to be animated or nah? Also it's impossible IRL, not in fiction so I feel like using that to say it's uber impressive is kinda flawed.

 

[VortechsTG]

He probally would't, since Halibel Lifting Strenght is lower than Natsu and Gray.

I just said they would probably break free did I not? Though in this case they have to break free from Halibel's grip AND the pressure underground while literally inside of solid matter and unable to move.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

One of the biggest issues here is that Re:Zero is a ******* novel so there are quite literally zero ways to accurately to tell how exactly a character is moving.

I still also don't understand how dodging rain = muh skill god, like that's just an evasive feat which doesn't translate into things like striking skill. I also still have yet to figure out why that's so impressive, there's a few factors to take into consideration like ya know the size of the rainstorm. (I.E the area they were surrounded by.)

Another topic that gets lost in the dodging arguments. Nobody ever talks about Theresia completely destroying Wilhelm's leg, by passing through his nerves and muscles without doing any unneccassary damage, like Wilhelm was barely bleeding.

Or Rui/Louis cutting Otto's leg so neatly revealing his musculature without touching his nerves, blood vessels, or bones.

Crazy stuff.

 

[Zabazab]

Which is also the issue with this.

He also has wind to push against the flames, or Deadspot to neutralize AoE

Halibel: “Here’s the deadspot.”

As soon as they said it, the figure advanced in front of the three, and swung the arm they had taken out of its sleeves, tossing something into the white light.

The light possessed the power to swallow everything and turn it into dust. Beyond the barrier that Emilia and Julius had used to hold it back, that too would be swallowed up and then disappear.

Or, so it had seemed.

Emilia: “No way…”

Letting out a voice akin to a gasp, Emilia’s amethyst eyes widened.

Reflected in her beautiful eyes was not the white Death that had been so close at hand, in fact, that had disappeared entirely; and instead reflected was the night sky, covered with thick clouds that had now been hollowed out in the shape of the light.

Witnessing the same thing, both Subaru and Julius were left speechless.

The aurora-clad ice wall that had collided with the light had also disappeared, and the fake Ryuzu, who had used herself as a target, disappeared into the light, leaving nothing behind――

Is that feat ever going to be animated or nah? Also it's impossible IRL, not in fiction so I feel like using that to say it's uber impressive is kinda flawed.

It will be animated in Season 5, here's the statements we have so far though. I imagine the dodging looks like them turning blurry, kind of like the Flash when he does phasing stuff.

Reinhard delivered a letter in a rainstorm while dodging every raindrop. (Felt's Birthday Q&A 2018)

Reinhard weaved through Regulus' droplets of water and grains of dust, even in cqc. (Volume 19)

Cecilus says he can dodge rain. (Sword Identity)

Kid Cecilus dodges danmaku comparable to grains in a sandstorm or raindrops in a rainstorm. (Volume 37)

Cecilus and Halibel dodged rain by instinctive intuition. (Volume 38)

Reinhard, Cecilus, and Halibel can dodge a rain of light, although dodging a mist of light would be troublesome. (Volume 38)

 

[VortechsTG]

It happened in a split second.
Something struck her shoulder, and then she fell to the pavement. It hurt, and she was shocked, but she ignored that and stared at Otto, who had pushed her aside.
Right after pushing her away, Otto had frozen up, unable to move. He was looking down—looking at his legs.
“”
The front of both of his legs had been peeled like fruits. His pants and the skin beneath were cut, neatly revealing red and pink musculature. Untouched white nerves and bone and gray blood vessels were clearly visible. Otto was speechless as he peered inside his own legs.
There was not even the slightest bleeding. It was a sickeningly beautiful deconstruction of the human body. It was horrifying to think that there existed a level of knifework that could transform a body into such a twisted, aesthetic display.
“—It is so troublesome for a sister to have such a crude brother.”
Saying that, the figure put his mouth to Otto’s wound. His tongue wriggled, running all over the delicate parts of Otto’s legs that had been protected by skin just moments ago.

- Vol 20 Ch 1

 

[VortechsTG]

It will be animated in Season 5, here's the statements we have so far though. I imagine the dodging looks like them turning blurry, kind of like the Flash when he does phasing stuff.

It's literally just this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Another topic that gets lost in the dodging arguments. Nobody ever talks about Theresia completely destroying Wilhelm's leg, by passing through his nerves and muscles without doing any unneccassary damage, like Wilhelm was barely bleeding.

Or Rui/Louis cutting Otto's leg so neatly revealing his musculature without touching his nerves, blood vessels, or bones.

Crazy stuff.

Feats like these are just indicative of high precision, though, which I don't think really translates very well to a VS match. Like okay, you can strike certain parts of your opponent's innards...

Okay...?

 

[Zabazab]

Feats like these are just indicative of high precision, though, which I don't think really translates very well to a VS match. Like okay, you can strike certain parts of your opponent's innards...

Okay...?

There's also analytical precog

Unfathomably superior to Emilia, who at 7 years old dodged a rain of arrows faster than her eyes could track by reading the shooters' intent.[33] Far superior to Old Wilhelm who, invisible or not, can anticipate his opponents attacks[8] by watching the movement of their eyes, feeling their hostility, reading how they breathe as they aim. Comparable to Cecilus, who is constantly aware of everything in his surroundings, analyzing other's physical abilities, conduct, and sounds,[26] to always have a grasp the positions of everyone and everything nearby. Unfathomably superior to Roswaal, who when faced with an invisible attack, cast out of sync with the caster's gaze and breathing, all with a feint added for good measure,[34] easily pinpointed and neutralized it. At least comparable to Theresia, who can predict her opponent's future attacks[23] from the stance they take, from where their eyes are trained, and from the very air that hangs above them, and can see, read, and feel paths of hostility[23] raining down upon her.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay? Analytical Prediction is nothing special, this just seems to try and push for the idea that Natsu will absolutely never hit Halibel. This is especially ridiculous given that when Halibel inevitably has to attack, Natsu can resist it and counterattack, not just because of his resistances but also because of his higher durability.