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Don't Get Carried Away, Monster! Heracles Vs Shiki Tohno

WILL THE MEME COME TO LIFE? or will Heracles throw the omnipotent Cu at Shiki as an NP and pull out a victory? CAN SHIKI KILL SERVANTS?
utw_carnival_phantasm_-_05_bdh264-1080p_flac078e60eb-mkv_snapshot_09-10_2011-11-03_20-02-13.jpg

088089kd8.jpg


Melty Blood Tohno key is being used.



SBA

Nanaya personality emerging is restricted.

let the Tier 0 meme battle begin!

no but for real this is a serious match up.

Heracles: @Kenboxx

Shiki: @HyperZero95 @Stillwinston @Popted2

Inconclusive:
 
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CAN SHIKI KILL SERVANTS?

Well we do have this statement from Nasu

Q: Since Saber and Gilgamesh have physical bodies in Fate/Stay Night, can Shiki see lines on them?

A: Not just when they have a physical body, the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are effective even when they're in spiritual bodies. For Shiki [Ryougi], if the opponent can be recognized as "living" (not "life", but "live"), she can see the lines of death. For example, the ghosts in Overlooking View were dead, but they were "living" in the sense that they can interfere with the current world.
Also, why she didn't succeed against the Sarira in Araya's arm is because it belonged to an enlightened one who achieved "becoming extinguished, alive." To kill it by the lines of death means she has to decipher advanced "lines of death" levels higher than the normal concept of death. But what's sad about bones is that rather than having to do that, they'll turn into ash if you burn them. If you have time to be using Death spells, level up and beat it physically.

So yes Tohno can see death lines and points on a servant so can he hold his own vs a servant in close combat well if we go by word of god

NASU If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko. If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class

So WOG thinks Tohno wont be able to fight even a defensive fight vs a average servant which would have a B rank NP of course this site does not seem to take WOG word on things like power level so just looking at the feats Nanaya was able to take out Kouma without the mystic eyes of death in melty blood

Berserker biggest strength is his god hand but the mystic eyes should be able to by pass that NP making it not matter for this fight

I got to be real Ik that the upgrades for tohno do to his feats in melty blood were added but I don't see him beating servants in a fight

You seem to know a lot about Tohno feats in melty blood who do you think wins?

Side note does Berserker have 9 lives for this fight
 
Well we do have this statement from Nasu



So yes Tohno can see death lines and points on a servant so can he hold his own vs a servant in close combat well if we go by word of god



So WOG thinks Tohno wont be able to fight even a defensive fight vs a average servant which would have a B rank NP of course this site does not seem to take WOG word on things like power level so just looking at the feats Nanaya was able to take out Kouma without the mystic eyes of death in melty blood

Berserker biggest strength is his god hand but the mystic eyes should be able to by pass that NP making it not matter for this fight

I got to be real Ik that the upgrades for tohno do to his feats in melty blood were added but I don't see him beating servants in a fight

You seem to know a lot about Tohno feats in melty blood who do you think wins?

Side note does Berserker have 9 lives for this fight
i mean this guy speed blitzed someone who could fight Arcueid and Dead Apostle Ancestor high tiers while closing his eyes (literally). Nasu's statements hold little weight when massively contradicted by other statements and his own works. it's like when he said Excalibur and Ea can't be replicated, yet Shirou and Archer have done both for Excalibur and the Moon Cell has done so for Ea. if his word is contradicted, it shouldn't be counted when his own works and even other statements contradict it.

i won't make arguments for Tohno winning here, since I'm abiding by the profiles here and I don't know how exactly they stack up to each other. but since you're asking me who I think would win personally, Fate characters generally are massively out classed by Tsukihime in feats, like consistent lightning timing and Tohno scaling above people who survived the moon being slammed into them, along with White Len's Tatari Nanaya physically destroying Nrvnqsr, which requires the power to obliterate a continent to physically destroy. Fate scaling to Tsukihime never really works well. not to mention Nasu never even mentioned which Shiki at what time period. it could easily be referring to his early game Tsukihime self.

but yeah, the idea of this thread is to go by the profiles. if we're using stuff outside of it, all of this changes massively, and not in favor of any Servant. if i wasn't going by profiles on this site I wouldn't of made this, since I think it's spite tier in favor of Tohno.

with that being said, in terms of profiles I know that Berserker is significantly above lower servants in speed, so I'm wondering how he stacks up here. he isn't surviving MEoDP since I think it's rated as 1-A here and is too haxy in general. but I don't know how well Tohno can survive getting hit with a direct attack from Berserker's blade. probably not very well. so it likely comes down to speed. and i don't know who is faster by the standards of the profiles.
 
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While Berserker is superior to other Servants in terms of speed, it's not by a significant amount as a weakened Saber could barely keep up with him and Archer managed to kill him 6 times. Meanwhile MB Tohno speedblitzed Vampire Sion, who can fight Arcueid and Night of Wallachia, who are peers to Servants in speed. Combine this speed advantage with MEoDP and he should takes this.
 
i mean this guy speed blitzed someone who could fight Arcueid and Dead Apostle Ancestor high tiers while closing his eyes (literally). Nasu's statements hold little weight when massively contradicted by other statements and his own works. it's like when he said Excalibur and Ea can't be replicated, yet Shirou and Archer have done both for Excalibur and the Moon Cell has done so for Ea. if his word is contradicted, it shouldn't be counted when his own works and even other statements contradict it.

i won't make arguments for Tohno winning here, since I'm abiding by the profiles here and I don't know how exactly they stack up to each other. but since you're asking me who I think would win personally, Fate characters generally are massively out classed by Tsukihime in feats, like consistent lightning timing and Tohno scaling above people who survived the moon being slammed into them, along with White Len's Tatari Nanaya physically destroying Nrvnqsr, which requires the power to obliterate a continent to physically destroy. Fate scaling to Tsukihime never really works well. not to mention Nasu never even mentioned which Shiki at what time period. it could easily be referring to his early game Tsukihime self.

but yeah, the idea of this thread is to go by the profiles. if we're using stuff outside of it, all of this changes massively, and not in favor of any Servant. if i wasn't going by profiles on this site I wouldn't of made this, since I think it's spite tier in favor of Tohno.

with that being said, in terms of profiles I know that Berserker is significantly above lower servants in speed, so I'm wondering how he stacks up here. he isn't surviving MEoDP since I think it's rated as 1-A here and is too haxy in general. but I don't know how well Tohno can survive getting hit with a direct attack from Berserker's blade. probably not very well. so it likely comes down to speed. and i don't know who is faster by the standards of the profiles.
Being off topic a little but Shirou never replicated excalibur it was caliburn. For archer you talk about nameless?

And where you get moon cell replicating EA ? Gilga in Extra series is not from moon cell but from the throne
 
Being off topic a little but Shirou never replicated excalibur it was caliburn. For archer you talk about nameless?

And where you get moon cell replicating EA ? Gilga in Extra series is not from moon cell but from the throne
Pretty sure at the end of HF he projected Excalibur to destroy Angra Mainyu. Archer also stated he could replicate it in UBW but it would use too much magical energy for him to survive using it.

the Throne is replicated from by the Moon Cell and every Heroic Spirit in it and everything they have.
 
Pretty sure at the end of HF he projected Excalibur to destroy Angra Mainyu. Archer also stated he could replicate it in UBW but it would use too much magical energy for him to survive using it.

the Throne is replicated from by the Moon Cell and every Heroic Spirit in it and everything they have.
The throne is not replicated in the moon cell, the moon cell only have a similar function by using the every timeline they have see and we don't know if the moon cell have every heroic spirit let alone everything they have. Otherwise it would not have summon Gil from the real throne.

For shirou i don't recall it being excalibur.
 
The throne is not replicated in the moon cell, the moon cell only have a similar function by using the every timeline they have see and we don't know if the moon cell have every heroic spirit let alone everything they have. Otherwise it would not have summon Gil from the real throne.

For shirou i don't recall it being excalibur.
the Moon Cell replicated Gaia and its systems, which is why there are earth like things in SE.RA.PH. it has its own replicated version of the throne.

as for Excalibur
13-HF16-17-23.jpg

basically Nasu's statements need to be examined to see if they are valid and don't contradict his works or even other statements.

@Stillwinston Shiki does a Herculean task FRA
heh, is this implying you're voting for Shiki or Heracles? just to be sure.
 
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the Moon Cell replicated Gaia and its systems, which is why there are earth like things in SE.RA.PH. it has its own replicated version of the throne.

as for Excalibur
13-HF16-17-23.jpg

basically Nasu's statements need to be examined to see if they are valid and don't contradict his works or even other statements.


heh, is this implying you're voting for Shiki or Heracles? just to be sur.
Throne of heroes is not part of gaia system, and moon cell doesn't have a replica of throne of heroes. It just have the data of the being because it's obversation system and can summon these data. Like i tell the gilga in extra series is from the real throne so we don't even know if moon cell was able to replicate it . J'y
 
the Moon Cell replicated Gaia and its systems, which is why there are earth like things in SE.RA.PH. it has its own replicated version of the throne.

as for Excalibur
13-HF16-17-23.jpg

basically Nasu's statements need to be examined to see if they are valid and don't contradict his works or even other statements.


heh, is this implying you're voting for Shiki or Heracles? just to be sure.
Going by what Nasu said

Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?

A:
Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

It seems like what Shirou projected was a sword with similar performance of course IK you will just show the image of him with the black sword but that could have just been them reusing the image to save time so they would not have to come up with a design for a new sword
 
Throne of heroes is not part of gaia system, and moon cell doesn't have a replica of throne of heroes. It just have the data of the being because it's obversation system and can summon these data. Like i tell the gilga in extra series is from the real throne so we don't even know if moon cell was able to replicate it . J'y
Hakuno finds Gilgamesh in the throne, which is in the Moon Cell. the Moon Cell replicated it among many other things.
Going by what Nasu said



It seems like what Shirou projected was a sword with similar performance of course IK you will just show the image of him with the black sword but that could have just been them reusing the image to save time so they would not have to come up with a design for a new sword
he projected an inferior version, but it is still the same sword, just a degraded version. Nasu said there are other NPs that may have a similar performance, meaning entirely different NPs with a similar effect, which Shirou wouldn't have access to.

regardless, this is kind of getting derailed. Nasu has made quite a few statements that don't make sense and don't follow the logic of his own works. i don't think they should all be disregarded, but measured on a case by case basis. in regards to scaling Fate to Tsukihime, it just falls flat on its face for a nigh infinite number of reasons from a power and lore standpoint. since TAs make most DAAs seem like children, but the top tier DAAs can fight the strongest one and a lot of the Tsukihime cast can.

with that being said, in terms of using the profiles on here i am neutral for now.
 
Hakuno finds Gilgamesh in the throne, which is in the Moon Cell. the Moon Cell replicated it among many other things.

he projected an inferior version, but it is still the same sword, just a degraded version. Nasu said there are other NPs that may have a similar performance, meaning entirely different NPs with a similar effect, which Shirou wouldn't have access to.

regardless, this is kind of getting derailed. Nasu has made quite a few statements that don't make sense and don't follow the logic of his own works. i don't think they should all be disregarded, but measured on a case by case basis. in regards to scaling Fate to Tsukihime, it just falls flat on its face for a nigh infinite number of reasons from a power and lore standpoint. since TAs make most DAAs seem like children, but the top tier DAAs can fight the strongest one and a lot of the Tsukihime cast can.

with that being said, in terms of using the profiles on here i am neutral for now.
Where do you get that hakuno find gilga in the throne? Hakuno have found gilga in the far side, where gilga was sealed.
 
Where do you get that hakuno find gilga in the throne? Hakuno have found gilga in the far side, where gilga was sealed.
BB sent him back to the Throne after stomping Leo and Gawain and Hakuno went there to retrieve him and that was still in the Moon Cell.
 
Do you have this part pls i don't recall anything on the sort.
i'll look for it in a bit, but BB did this which really just seems to be referring to the Throne.
EP381.png

edit: looking more into it it seems it was referring to sending him back to the unaltered Imaginary Number Space.

but we know the Moon Cell copies things from Earth directly and SE.RA.PH has a lot of things from Earth. the Moon Cell drawing Servants from the Throne from Gaia doesn't really make much sense since it simulates and stores things from Gaia.

regardless, i think we're in agreement Nasu's statements don't hold up well anyways a lot of the time and should be measured on a case by case basis. with that being said, any thoughts on the fight itself?
 
Yeah, Gil was sent back to the Imaginary Number Space not the Throne, also the Throne is something that outside of the world and not part of the world itself
•Birth of Heroic Spirits
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. Also, Emiya and Artoria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.

Which hints that it's close to the root which is stated to be outside the world


So the conclusion is that Mooncell can only observe and record what is in the world, not with things that outside of the world.
 
Yeah, Gil was sent back to the Imaginary Number Space not the Throne, also the Throne is something that outside of the world and not part of the world itself


Which hints that it's close to the root which is stated to be outside the world


So the conclusion is that Mooncell can only observe and record what is in the world, not with things that outside of the world.

the throne was created by the world though wasn't it? well Alaya. you'd think the Moon Cell having replicated pretty much everything in Gaia which would include Alaya would be able to replicate the same thing. especially since the Moon Cell has the abilities and stuff of characters like the Earth Mother Goddess and her descendants.
 
the throne was created by the world though wasn't it? well Alaya. you'd think the Moon Cell having replicated pretty much everything in Gaia which would include Alaya would be able to replicate the same thing. especially since the Moon Cell has the abilities and stuff of characters like the Earth Mother Goddess and her descendants.
No it wasn't the throne was "created" by the root. Alaya just have access to it
 
No it wasn't the throne was "created" by the root. Alaya just have access to it
the Throne being created by the Root is never supported absolutely anywhere to my knowledge whatsoever. being outside of the world does not mean the Root is involved, especially in context that is likely referring to outside of the world of Gaia/Alaya, not all of creation. where are these statements saying the Throne is created by the Root?
 
the throne was created by the world though wasn't it? well Alaya. you'd think the Moon Cell having replicated pretty much everything in Gaia which would include Alaya would be able to replicate the same thing. especially since the Moon Cell has the abilities and stuff of characters like the Earth Mother Goddess and her descendants.
On the point is the Throne is outside of the world which is beyond Mooncell's observation area, and Mooncell recreating the Throne is a mistake.

If it was created by alaya, it would be a part of the earth which would clearly contradict the fact that it is completely outside the world.
the Throne being created by the Root is never supported absolutely anywhere to my knowledge whatsoever. being outside of the world does not mean the Root is involved, especially in context that is likely referring to outside of the world of Gaia/Alaya, not all of creation. where are these statements saying the Throne is created by the Root?
Literally all creation is the creation of the Root, everything originates in it and everything ends in it.
 
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On the point is the Throne is outside of the world which is beyond Mooncell's observation area, and Mooncell recreating the Throne is a mistake.
alright then.
If it was created by alaya, it would be a part of the earth which would clearly contradict the fact that it is completely outside the world.
being created by Alaya doesn't necessarily mean it would be in the world if they did it through some unknown means but it's honestly irrelevant here now.
Literally all creation is the creation of the Root, everything originates in it and everything ends in it.
you knew exactly what i meant by not related to the Root. as in the Throne and its system wasn't made/shaped by the Root. i just find that such an odd mechanic for the Root to create, but perhaps.

regardless, the main point is that Nasu's statements can contradict his works and be discarded if they do. and Excalibur not being able to be replicated is an example of him not knowing what he's talking about. i don't think we really need to go further on this.
 
regardless, the main point is that Nasu's statements can contradict his works and be discarded if they do. and Excalibur not being able to be replicated is an example of him not knowing what he's talking about. i don't think we really need to go further on this.
Besides, that statement has multiple other problems beside contradictions. It excluded a great deal of characters that can fodderize, let alone fight, Servants. By seriously using that statement, you are supporting the idea of things like Types not being able to fight Servants just because they were excluded, which obviously makes no sense. The quote also is unclear in regards to what version of Tohno is being used. Going by his feats, its definitely referring to early game Tohno, who has a less evolved MEoDP and little combat ability.
 
Besides, that statement has multiple other problems beside contradictions. It excluded a great deal of characters that can fodderize, let alone fight, Servants. By seriously using that statement, you are supporting the idea of things like Types not being able to fight Servants just because they were excluded, which obviously makes no sense. The quote also is unclear in regards to what version of Tohno is being used. Going by his feats, its definitely referring to early game Tohno, who has a less evolved MEoDP and little combat ability.
Servants don't shrug off moons getting slammed into them, where as a character Tohno has physically fodderized did. that's all that really needs to be said in regards to Nasu's statement being contradicted. it can even argued to just be a complete recton consider these feats came out later. but yeah, there is way too many ways to poke infinite holes into that interview statement.

going off the profiles though, I don't know how Tohno's AP stacks up to Heracles, but it shouldn't really matter due to MEoDP. but i'm staying neutral anyways.
 
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