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With the recent tiering system revisions, I figured this topic would come up in its application. The purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate the reasoning used on the profile of the Root.
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Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed, it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarly large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.
Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.
On another note, I am told that the actual translation of the "dimensional theories" statement is supposed to be:
"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。
あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"
"According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.
Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things."
Can any translators confirm this statement and the meaning behind it? Thank you.
@DontTalk: If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level. But yeah, take that as just a first impression.
@DarkDragonMedeus
@Qawsedf234
@Deagonx
@Ultima_Reality
As this is a staff thread, any regular users who want to contribute must get consent from an existing staff member. Do not spam. Derailing will be deleted. Cite your sources.
Our Current Tiering Requirements
Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed, it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarly large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.
1-A: Transcendent
Characters or objects that functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System. These characters are completely transcendent to even those that have absolute power over a single infinite hierarchy of levels of infinity.Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level
Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions. More information on the concept is available on this page.Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.
1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters that stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).Current Profile Statements about the Root
Swirl of the Root
「 」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...
vsbattles.fandom.com
- Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed.
- Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of its definitions.
- It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition.
Current Opinions
@Firestorm808 : I would assume it doesn't meet the current requirements. You would need a blatant statement for actual/hypothetical infinite transcendence. Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.On another note, I am told that the actual translation of the "dimensional theories" statement is supposed to be:
虚淵 玄(Nitroplus)『Fate/Zero 1 第四次聖杯戦争秘話』第2回 Illustration/武内 崇・TYPE-MOON | 最前線
あの奈須きのこがシナリオを担当した大人気ゲーム『Fate/stay night』の前日譚を虚淵玄が描いた傑作小説『Fate/Zero』が星海社文庫の創刊に堂々の登場! 1巻目となる「第四次聖杯戦争秘話」は『最前線』にて全文公開!
sai-zen-sen.jp
"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。
あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"
"According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.
Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things."
Can any translators confirm this statement and the meaning behind it? Thank you.
@DontTalk: If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level. But yeah, take that as just a first impression.
Proposal
- Without evidence of infinite transcendence, the Swirl of the Root will be designated as one level of infinity above the highest dimensionality mentioned in the series outside the Root, that being the MoonCell created a barrier that cut through 8 dimensions (1-C)
@DarkDragonMedeus
@Qawsedf234
@Deagonx
@Ultima_Reality
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