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Understood. I greatly appreciate you helping clarify those things. I know you get a lot of requests like that so I'm grateful to you for taking the time here.
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This thread has been quiet for some time, and there's an outstanding aspect of the Avalon situation, so I wanted to leave a short message to address my current input.
Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as though even the original text regarding "up to the sixth dimension" is clear enough about what the paranthesised text is referring to - there is still some level of doubt here. However, the statement doesn't need to disprove Avalon is 6-D - it needs to prove it. Considering both the vagueness of the statement, Executor's notes on it, and the chunking chosen in the translation, it is evidently does not prove this alone. I would say, however, this might suffice as proof of a range feat, if more context can be given to the term "communication" used.
There is more to address going forward in this thread, but before addressing that at another time, I wanted to make my verdict on the Avalon situation clear. Everything about the statement could both be canonical and correct, and yet Avalon could also have below sixth-dimensional durability, and there would be no contradiction between those two claims. So, it's a formally invalid argument to say Avalon has 6-D durability for these reasons. The guidebook evidence does not do enough to prove 6-D durability for Avalon, and so, this should not be on the profiles.
EDIT: Meant "durability" there, not "AP".
Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as though even the original text regarding "up to the sixth dimension" is clear enough about what the paranthesised text is referring to - there is still some level of doubt here. However, the statement doesn't need to disprove Avalon is 6-D - it needs to prove it. Considering both the vagueness of the statement, Executor's notes on it, and the chunking chosen in the translation, it is evidently does not prove this alone. I would say, however, this might suffice as proof of a range feat, if more context can be given to the term "communication" used.
There is more to address going forward in this thread, but before addressing that at another time, I wanted to make my verdict on the Avalon situation clear. Everything about the statement could both be canonical and correct, and yet Avalon could also have below sixth-dimensional durability, and there would be no contradiction between those two claims. So, it's a formally invalid argument to say Avalon has 6-D durability for these reasons. The guidebook evidence does not do enough to prove 6-D durability for Avalon, and so, this should not be on the profiles.
EDIT: Meant "durability" there, not "AP".
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Got permission from Ultima again a bit ago but never commented
The original text says
To further go into why this means Avalon itself is a 6d place with 6d durability, in case you're unaware, the noble phantasm works by enshrouding the user in Avalon, the location.
As we know of life currently, it is composed of three things, the mind, the body, and the soul. These three components work together to ensure life continues on, the body needs the mind and soul to control it, as an empty body is nothing, however the soul needs the body to act as an anchor, or else it is dissipated and returned to Akasha, we are told this a few times, for instance Illya in FSN, Ishtar in Babylonia, Ciel in Tsukihime, etc
So based on quite literally every description of the third magic, it seems like it does in fact, only materialize the soul, and that this in and of itself, the materialization of the soul to allow it to be 100% in charge, using its genes instead of the body's, no longer being at risk of eventually dying due to the loss of a body, etc, this is what the "next stage of life" is
For the first, its impossible feat is the denial of nothingness, for the second, the operation of parallel worlds, for the third, the materialization of the soul, the fourth is unknown, and the fifth's exact domain isn't known, but its impossible feat is related to consumption and extinction.
Materialization of the soul as a whole is far beyond what magecraft, which can't even actuate the soul and interact with it in any meaningful way, that is the impossible feat, not infinitely amping it
You know, the thing the limit exists for
Gilgamesh being called worth multiple souls, or servants ripping out multiple souls at once does not at all change the very direct statements that exist saying that they are converting it to magical energy which there is a limit on, a limit which can not at all be exceeded. I'm not sure what to tell you, it simply is how the verse works, and often, there's a reason beyond just energy that servants are setting up or soul ripping multiple people.
So to answer "why does it need 6 if each one is infinite?" Because the Root is simply that far beyond everything else, as we are told time and time again, and beyond that, because that is simply how the ritual is designed, to reach the Root by releasing the souls (fun note btw, the souls of the servants are released from the grail at the end, they aren't like, broken down into purely energy) so they can make their way back to the throne, and the energy is then used to help reach a path to the root
The original text says
As other have posted its along the lines of saying it blocks physical interference, things from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension), I would argue that the parenthesis is implied to apply to everything before it via the way its written. This is also implied because well, as posted by Regidan, Obscurant Wall of Chalk exists, this skill specifies that if it were ranked higher it would be similar to Avalon in that it could block/dodge attacks from higher order dimensions, this very clearly shows the higher dimensional thing for Avalon is not merely communication
Due to this statement, it then becomes completely impossible to argue that Avalon only blocks higher dimensional communication, as Obscurant Wall of Chalk specifies that it can block attacks from higher dimensions, meaning the up to sixth dimensional in parenthesis does in fact, apply to everything that comes before it. Obscurant Wall of Chalk is referring to Avalon in the description here, if the principle of being able to avoid (phase through or block depending on tls, generally defend against though) attacks from a higher dimension is close to Avalon, that shows that the idea that Avalon is only able to block communication from higher dimensions can not be correct.
To further go into why this means Avalon itself is a 6d place with 6d durability, in case you're unaware, the noble phantasm works by enshrouding the user in Avalon, the location.
If it is able to block attacks from higher dimensions by enshrouding the user in the location, then that means the location itself is why those attacks can't reach or else do damage, meaning the location itself is 6 dimensional (as that is specified as the limit which it can block). This solves your issue of supposed vagueness of the description, as it becomes clear that it can in fact, work against attacks and other physical interference from those higher dimensions as well, although even beyond that, if the reason it works against anything higher dimensional is because it is moving you to that location, in order for the location to defend against it, it has to be higher dimensional itself, this just becomes exceptionally clear when Obscurant Wall of Chalk is taken into account, as it removes any potential doubt of it working on attacks as well.
Except we're told very clearly what that next level of life is, its not needing the original body as an anchor. The next level of life is having the soul be a perpetual motion machine not limited by the restrictions imposed by the flesh of the world, allowing the "invincible command terminal" to be at full power
Instead, when a soul is manifested by the third magic, it can now, ignore the container its placed in, and use the "genes of the soul" (the soul is all that matters now, so the limits of the body matter not, as the body itself isn't in control, or limiting its power)
You argue that the third magic is actually giving them some sort of infinite amp, which gives them the infinite energy, however, this is not said or implied actually, in fact further descriptions of Heaven's Feel leave out this assumed infinite amp you're proposing it gives, and hammer home that all it does is materialize the soul, and that everything else comes as a consequence of that
As we know of life currently, it is composed of three things, the mind, the body, and the soul. These three components work together to ensure life continues on, the body needs the mind and soul to control it, as an empty body is nothing, however the soul needs the body to act as an anchor, or else it is dissipated and returned to Akasha, we are told this a few times, for instance Illya in FSN, Ishtar in Babylonia, Ciel in Tsukihime, etc
So based on quite literally every description of the third magic, it seems like it does in fact, only materialize the soul, and that this in and of itself, the materialization of the soul to allow it to be 100% in charge, using its genes instead of the body's, no longer being at risk of eventually dying due to the loss of a body, etc, this is what the "next stage of life" is
This is a weird chain of logic "its one of the five magics, those do impossible things, therefore this means the soul does not possess infinite energy on its own, but rather is amped by the impossible powers of the third magic". The first thing (it being something outside of the reach of magecraft) simply does not lead to the second (it gives an infinite amp to the soul), rather, we know very concretely what the impossible feat of the third magic is, it is materializing the soul, you know, the listed domain of the third magic, each domain of a true magic is its impossible feat.
For the first, its impossible feat is the denial of nothingness, for the second, the operation of parallel worlds, for the third, the materialization of the soul, the fourth is unknown, and the fifth's exact domain isn't known, but its impossible feat is related to consumption and extinction.
Materialization of the soul as a whole is far beyond what magecraft, which can't even actuate the soul and interact with it in any meaningful way, that is the impossible feat, not infinitely amping it
Well you see, we are in fact, directly told that not only does everything have said limits for mana, but specifically, and very much in plain english, that servants absorbing souls is converting them to mana
You know, the thing the limit exists for
So Servants convert souls to magical energy, there is a definitive cap on magical energy that is repeatedly stated throughout the series, but you're right, its totally headcanon that they convert it to magical energy, and that a cap exists.
Gilgamesh being called worth multiple souls, or servants ripping out multiple souls at once does not at all change the very direct statements that exist saying that they are converting it to magical energy which there is a limit on, a limit which can not at all be exceeded. I'm not sure what to tell you, it simply is how the verse works, and often, there's a reason beyond just energy that servants are setting up or soul ripping multiple people.
This is awful as evidence, yes, the holy grail can store multiple servant's souls, this means what exactly? Why would being able to store a servant's soul mean it can now do what it needs 6 or 7 for with 1? Because there's infinite energy in one? Have you ever thought that perhaps something like reaching a path to the Root maybe just isn't within the bounds of infinite energy to accomplish normally (one soul), or else stuff like the explicitly infinite energy kaleidosticks would just bring Illya to a path to the Root when she got serious. As for other wishes, it doesn't actually at all need to be fully filled to achieve wishes which can be realized within the confines of our world, we are told this very explicitly in Fate/Zero, its why with both Saber and Gilgamesh still alive (meaning at most 5 servants died), it is able to in theory, fulfill Kerry's wish, and then achieve Kirei's instead. Now I already know the response to this would be "well it should be able to do that with 1" and the simple reply to that is it is designed to not do that. It is only ever meant to grant the wish to go to Akasha, to achieve magic, that it is able to activate with less power than needed to punch through the world is an unintended side effect, and only used to give other magi outside of the big three families false hope, and even besides that point, the lesser grail needs to activate over time, and the greater grail is hidden.
So to answer "why does it need 6 if each one is infinite?" Because the Root is simply that far beyond everything else, as we are told time and time again, and beyond that, because that is simply how the ritual is designed, to reach the Root by releasing the souls (fun note btw, the souls of the servants are released from the grail at the end, they aren't like, broken down into purely energy) so they can make their way back to the throne, and the energy is then used to help reach a path to the root
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I'll be brief so as to not continue expanding the word count of this thread past the point of viability, and I am more interested in engaging with the points considered most crucial by other staff, but I saw my stance misrepresented a few times above so:
Neither the fact of a maximum capacity, nor the conversion to magical energy were called into question. My point was simply this: The proposed mechanism to avoid the proof that human souls are made up of finite quantities of energy was the theory that Servants are taking finite portions from an infinite amount because they cannot store all of it at once. This is contradicted by what we are shown in the series because servants will often absorb many souls at once. If your theory were true, this would never serve any purpose as they would need to absorb a single human at intermittent periods in order to recharge back to their maximum.
In Fate/Stay Night, Rider and Shinji created an absorption field that simultaneously collected the souls of an entire high school.
Again, this renders your theory impossible. This entire debacle serves no purpose, because a single one of these souls could be used to fill Rider up to her maximum capacity. This just isn't how it works. Humans provided finite amounts of energy, and Servants explicitly benefit from collecting huge amounts -- dozens or hundreds of people -- at the same time.
This is not my stance. I went to considerable length in the last two comments about this subject to clarify that this wasn't my stance after the first time you described it this way, and somehow we are still here again.
Neither the fact of a maximum capacity, nor the conversion to magical energy were called into question. My point was simply this: The proposed mechanism to avoid the proof that human souls are made up of finite quantities of energy was the theory that Servants are taking finite portions from an infinite amount because they cannot store all of it at once. This is contradicted by what we are shown in the series because servants will often absorb many souls at once. If your theory were true, this would never serve any purpose as they would need to absorb a single human at intermittent periods in order to recharge back to their maximum.
In Fate/Stay Night, Rider and Shinji created an absorption field that simultaneously collected the souls of an entire high school.
Again, this renders your theory impossible. This entire debacle serves no purpose, because a single one of these souls could be used to fill Rider up to her maximum capacity. This just isn't how it works. Humans provided finite amounts of energy, and Servants explicitly benefit from collecting huge amounts -- dozens or hundreds of people -- at the same time.
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This does not at all disprove my argument. I am literally showing you scans which directly says what I'm saying, there exists a verifiably true cap on magical energy, which is what souls are converted to very explicitly according to Apoc. Its said in very very plain textI'll be brief so as to not continue expanding the word count of this thread past the point of viability, and I am more interested in engaging with the points considered most crucial by other staff, but I saw my stance misrepresented a few times above so:
This is not my stance. I went to considerable length in the last two comments about this subject to clarify that this wasn't my stance after the first time you described it this way, and somehow we are still here again.
Neither the fact of a maximum capacity, nor the conversion to magical energy were called into question. My point was simply this: The proposed mechanism to avoid the proof that human souls are made up of finite quantities of energy was the theory that Servants are taking finite portions from an infinite amount because they cannot store all of it at once. This is contradicted by what we are shown in the series because servants will often absorb many souls at once. If your theory were true, this would never serve any purpose as they would need to absorb a single human at intermittent periods in order to recharge back to their maximum.
In Fate/Stay Night, Rider and Shinji created an absorption field that simultaneously collected the souls of an entire high school.
Again, this renders your theory impossible. This entire debacle serves no purpose, because a single one of these souls could be used to fill Rider up to her maximum capacity. This just isn't how it works. Humans provided finite amounts of energy, and Servants explicitly benefit from collecting huge amounts -- dozens or hundreds of people -- at the same time.
Your entire counter argument hinges on "well, servants absorb multiple people at once, therefore these very clear scans can't be true". This is not an argument at all, you've never addressed the actual evidence, you instead just continue to go "well why do they do this then?" As for why do they not just absorb a single human over large periods of time, well, simply put, the human would die and their soul is sent to Akasha, not only that, its just not very efficient either?
Like, I'm not exactly sure how you think their absorption works, if they take the soul and convert it to mana, the person just drops dead, in the example you're trying to use with Rider, the people she was absorbing energy from were specifically melting down into mana for her. If someone dies, and they take some of the soul, they simply do not have the ability to wait and keep coming back to that soul, that soul will no longer exist in our plane of reality
Now, what if they kept someone alive? Well, absorbing energy from still living people is a lot harder, and when that's done, its not via absorbing their souls, they instead absorb their life energy, like they do with their master. Life energy is very explicitly super limited. It recharges over time, but if you absorb too much, well its life energy, and so the person will instantly die which results in the same thing as above. Life energy is not the energy of the soul, instead it is replenished by the soul via the magic circuits over time. In the case of absorbing from multiple living people at once, then absorbing that much Od becomes almost necessary as the amount is lower than what would be obtained from souls, but even ignoring that, its simply much easier to do than just camp one person and wait for them to recharge whenever you need more energy, it simply makes more sense.
So with both keeping someone alive to constantly feed and killing them not exactly working to use exclusively one person for this purpose, then we're left with killing multiple people for energy as the viable solution.
If we look at cases where people are actually doing this too, its almost exclusively when they're also using up that mana, think about it, Caster absorbs magic from multiple people, and uses absurd amounts to keep up all her passive stuff around the city and temple for instance, maintaining Blood Fort Andromeda also takes a massive amount of energy as it is a very large and powerful bounded field, etc
Now you keep bringing up Blood Fort Andromeda as some sort of gotcha, however Blood Fort Andromeda doesn't exactly help you here, its a rather weird case in fact.
So Blood Fort Andromeda when not activated simply drains the Od of everyone within constantly, providing a small amount from everyone to both Rider and her master, this is notably, not absorbing the souls. Blood Fort Andromeda's full effect wasn't even used to try and provide energy for Rider, it was just because Shinji sucks
He notes he only set it up to have something for negotiations with Tohsaka, he then notes he's keeping it up again, because he sucks
"Stop? Stop what? Don't tell me you're telling me to stop this boundary field. That'll be such a waste. I can't just stop something I've already started."
"Stop. Do you know what you're doing?"
This is my power. The only one who can decide whether or not to stop it is me, and if you want it stopped, isn't it logical to at least kneel and beg to me?
Geez, you and Fujimura, you guys don't know your positions."
Rider for her part in this, does not want to kill people, even going so far as to purposely spare Emiya so he can be healed, then when she learns Shinji refuses to do so, she decides to drink his blood so he doesn't go to waste
Shinji then notes in his plea for his life, that so far only everyone's life force has been absorbed, rather than anyone dying and having their souls taken"I have gone easy on him. I believe he can still be saved if you heal him."
"…Hey, what are you doing, making choices on your own? Who said to go easy on him? …Geez, Servants shouldn't give opinions to their Master."
"Then you have no intention of saving this person?"
"Nope. First of all, I can't use any healing magic. He's just going to die, so let him be at ease."
"I understand. I shall not melt him in my boundary field. I shall quench my thirst directly."
A heavy metallic sound echoes.
…My body is lifted a little.
"…Ah."
…She is staring at my bloody neck.
The Servant in black opens her mouth delicately and…
…Bites into my neck as if kissing it.
And this is true, we're later told that people were just hospitalized for malnutrition symptoms
I tighten my grip.
There's no hesitation.
Just a little sympathy.
It's because Shinji wasn't taught the basic rules of magithat there's no problem with killing other magi.
Your Master's life's in danger…!"
Then in Heaven's Feel, its only activated because Sakura goes berserk, and in her case its again, not souls she absorbs, but just the magical energy of living people, specifically Tohsaka and Emiya
Now I mentioned Blood Fort Andromeda is weird, it never actually absorbing the souls of anyone is part of that, but another part is that it ever being said to absorb souls in the prologue is actually rather inconsistent with not only every showing of it, but every description
So I've already shown the times it's been used, not only was it not because Rider wanted energy, but it also never absorbs the souls of anyone, only their magical energy of their living body, but here are the descriptions of it
Even Pandemonium Cetus (Blood Fort Andromeda but shot as a laser and amplified) is consistent with this
What I am noting here is that Blood Fort Andromeda seemingly doesn't actually even absorb souls, it only absorbs life force, life energy, etc. It does this by dissolving people into blood, which as seen during the above Dead End, Rider can drink to recover her own magical energy.
So what we have here now for Blood Fort Andromeda, is a bounded field that has in fact, explicitly never ever absorbed even a single soul, and may possibly not even be able to absorb souls and only absorb magical energy from still living people, so I don't believe it at all helps you disprove what I'm saying about the cap on energy being why souls do not provide an infinite amp
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Just recently @DarkGrath told me to repost here the answer I wrote to his last post
Further elaboration that I wrote in other message to him: Because, under the premise that the "up to the sixth dimension" mean exclusively the communication part and thus is only a range feat, that would still mean that the location Avalon need to be a 6D realm to be incommunicable from anything below the sixth dimension, because the only thing that the NP Avalon do is just partially place the user in Avalon.
Now though, I would also like to point out how despite some possible vagueness in the statement about if the "up to the sixth dimension" also apply to the rest of previous things or just the communication part, it's much more likely to it to be also refering to the rest of listed thing.
So with all things considered, while there could exist some room to interpretation about the "up to the sixth dimension" statement, is considerably more likely that the statement apply to all of the defensive capabilities of the NP Avalon.
Even under the interpretation that the NP Avalon don't grant 6D durability and instead is just a range feat (which I disagree but not the point rn), it wouldn't change at all the 6D ratings of the profiles, why? Because Avalon is actually a location, a place inside the planet, and what the NP Avalon do is just partially summon Avalon, so those able to destroy the planet would be destroying a 6D realm, which mean that the ratings of the character would remain the same because the justification was always that characters can destroy the planet that have a 6D realm inside.
Further elaboration that I wrote in other message to him: Because, under the premise that the "up to the sixth dimension" mean exclusively the communication part and thus is only a range feat, that would still mean that the location Avalon need to be a 6D realm to be incommunicable from anything below the sixth dimension, because the only thing that the NP Avalon do is just partially place the user in Avalon.
Now though, I would also like to point out how despite some possible vagueness in the statement about if the "up to the sixth dimension" also apply to the rest of previous things or just the communication part, it's much more likely to it to be also refering to the rest of listed thing.
- First of all, the NP Avalon is a defensive ability, more specifically is said to "provides the greatest defence" and is called “absolute defence” various times, so it wouldn't makes sense that its most powerful ability is one that block communitication when its whole purpose and kit is focused on being the strongest defense there are.
- In the same material where is mentioned the sixth dimension part is also similarly said that it block True Magic, specifically referencing the Second Magic with the "operation of parallel worlds" part (something also said in all the other materials about Avalon). The Second Magic is an magic that let the user see and manipulate parallel worlds timelines as simple pages of a book something that by itself is already a higher dimensional feat (more specifically 5D from all the previous threads)
So if is clarified that it can block hax, including 5D hax, and then in the same paragraph it mention "up to the sixth dimension", then it makes sense that the sixth dimension part apply to the defensive capabilities in general of the statement and that's the reason of why it can block 5D hax.
- Regarding the "shut out all physical interference", something that support how this ability also refer to higher dimensional defense is the description of one of Mash (a Knight of the Round Table in Fate) skill:
So through this skill we can confirm how the NP Avalon is able to defend against physical attacks from higher dimensions (and that if Mash rank was higher she could also do it).
So with all things considered, while there could exist some room to interpretation about the "up to the sixth dimension" statement, is considerably more likely that the statement apply to all of the defensive capabilities of the NP Avalon.
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DarkGrath is a woman, just a heads up. She/They.
Blocking multi-dimensional communications doesn't require that Avalon be a 6-D realm.
Well, it isn't it's most powerful ability, blocking communications isn't a particularly powerful ability no matter what. It's only from a battleboarding perspective that we are popping our eyes out at the mention of six dimensions. As Executor points out, the only scan in existence that refers to these dimensions does so in a way which strongly suggests it's only referring to the communications. That does not mean it is the "strongest" ability it has.
He's can view the timelines within the book, but the worlds themselves aren't pages in a book to him, it doesn't grant a form of transcendence. The main function of the ability is to travel to other dimensions/worlds.
No, because we don't know what "similar in principle" means and this comparison actually harms Avalon, not helps it. Mash's ability doesn't defend against these attacks by way of durability, it just plucks her out of the time axis so the attack misses her. All this would really suggest is that Avalon transferring someone to the land of fairys makes attacks miss them. It does not bolster the case for 6-D durability, it makes it worse.
It isn't, we already went over this with an independent translator. It's far more likely that it only refers to the communications part.
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With regards to the mechanics of Avalon and related skills, we are told how it works. It's not done by having any sort of qualitative superiority but by shifting its time axis.
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It would though with the sixth dimension part.
It would objetively speaking be its most powerful ability, after all the energy used to block a punch isn't at all the same that the energy needed to block something (in this case communication) at higher dimensions, it's not battleboarding mentality is just very common sense. No, what Executor said is that it's up to interpretation and that either thing is possible, but if needed to choose (because you persistently insisted on him to choose something) he thinks it only refer to the communication part just from the proximity of the text, the point with Paul and my post is to show how is more likely to refer to the defensive capabilities of the NP Avalon in general when considering all the context.
I don't know how that is the only conclusion you could reach when the novel and manga adaptation very clearly show him manipulating the timelines that he see as pages of a book (you know, the same thing that BB also do and that staff have said in this and past threads is a 5D feat), the text went to the point of even state how the pages were being born and erased from him simply moving his fingers, and then its show how by passing the pages of the book the protagonist of Fate/Strange Fake was created. But if even more scans of the Second Magic manipulating worlds is needed then:
And more, among the fact that even with a limited use of the Second Magic the Jewel Sword use the power of infinite parallel worlds:
As well as Tsubame Gaeshi manifesting multiple simultaneous attacks (at Kojiro peak in Shimousa they reach the infinite simultaneous attack) through a limited use of the Second Magic:
You understand that this would mean that the NP Avalon defend the user from attacks by putting them in a higher dimensional plane correct? Which means that the location Avalon is a higher dimensional realm, something that support how Avalon is 6D if added with the "up to the sixth dimension" in parenthesis in the description of the NP Avalon, so at the end the ratings would stay exactly the same because people able to destroy the planet would be destroying the 6D realm inside it.
Edit: Was writing this before the two previous post were send so I didn't saw them until later, I'm not going to engage in the part about people consuming souls and only getting finite energy because I think that was already countered sufferently enough in previous responses, I only want to address the Hundred Faces arguments because is genuinely speaking bad.
Hundred Faces just possess multiple personalities from the medical condition called Dissociative Identity Disorder, they just can manifest them as different bodies by dividing their own spirit origin in multiple parts.
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@Expectro2000xxx Being granted permission for a single post does not mean you are able to post indefinitely. Make sure you are getting staff permission for each comment.
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Depends. If you're able to observe the entire timeline because you're in some realm that contains and is external to it, then that does imply at least one higher dimension. To be outside of the time axis and still be in some kind of space, you need to be in a coordinate that's not in any of the points in (x,y,z,t), which requires a fifth dimension. It's similar to how we consider a space between different timelines to be a 5-D region.
Now, the reason we don't consider a space between timelines to be automatically Low 1-C is because we also require a higher-dimensional space to have significant enough size to qualify for Low 1-C, similar to how we don't give out Low 2-C for destroying small intervals of spacetime, or High 1-C for verses featuring string theory cosmologies where dimensions are compactified to the order of a planck length.
So, if we put the purported R-F Interactions aside, a relevant question is: How big is the Moon Cell? And, for the matter, how big is Avalon? (And for the matter you could extend this question to "How big are the verse's higher-dimensional spaces?")
The above explanation also ties into the matter of souls being higher-dimensional and yet seemingly only providing finite amounts of power. Now, as I pointed out up there, Nasuverse seems to correctly depict higher-dimensional spaces as having infinitely more room in them than lower-dimensional ones. Is this contradicted by souls being finitely powerful? Not exactly, and for that I refer to the very first section of the Tiering System's FAQ page.
Basically, while higher-dimensional beings might be infinitely larger, they really aren't necessarily infinitely stronger, and these facts are not mutually exclusive. Energy and mass are quantities that apply to both higher-dimensional and lower-dimensional spaces, and so being 4-dimensional or higher alone doesn't grant you the ability to exert infinite energy, any more than us being 3-dimensional does.
That said, this also means that, if a verse showcases higher-dimensional beings with finite power, and then later on shows some unrelated higher-dimensional space, the existence of the former doesn't prevent the latter from being Tier 2 or 1. For reasons outlined here and here. So, overall, the Moon Cell's higher-dimensional status can still make it Tier 1, even if the souls' higher-dimensional status doesn't make them Tier 2/1.
That said: What the souls argument can disprove, in the end, is the idea that higher dimensions in Nasu provide Reality-Fiction Transcendence, since this would imply that they provide infinitely greater power no matter what and pretty much bypass all of the above factors. It just doesn't disprove Tier 1 in general because R-F Transcendences aren't the only possible avenue for getting to that tier.
As for the rest:
You focus a fair bit on disproving the idea of a "topic shift," I've noticed. This seems to be what Paul was bringing up, so that's understandable, but I don't think it's terribly relevant. A shift in topic need not exist for her explanation to be seen as a generic one, if what she's saying is basically "So, you know higher dimensions? Yeah, BB is that." This is certainly a valid reading of this bit:
The bolded part seems to be harkening back to the argument you made previously, which was basically "The Moon Cell is non-physical and therefore non-spatial and as such the statements about higher dimensions are metaphors for something else." I already wrote a response to that in the previous thread, so, I refer you to it.
If you wholesale accept Rin's explanation as a blanket theory for how higher dimensions in Nasuverse work, then you, as far as I can tell, are also forced to accept the parts where she states that the 3-dimensional world is embedded within the higher-dimensional space and "drawn in a book" from its perspective. That is, indeed, quite strong evidence for higher dimensions being infinitely greater in power, especially in conjunction with this scan I posted up there.
So, as I see it, if you go down that route, you have two portrayals of higher dimensions in Nasuverse: One that points towards infinite superiority (BB) and one that doesn't (Souls), and as an outsider it's not wholly clear to me which one should be picked. Your argument would be far more compelling if what we had was an ambiguously high-tier case contrasted with a solidly low-tier one, but as I see it, what we have here is (At worst) two cases that are equally strong in their respective directions.
Of course, you could try and take down the Moon Cell thing by arguing that its "higher dimensions" aren't literal ones, but as I've said, in doing so you vastly decrease the importance of the point regarding Nasuverse Souls. You can't use both sword and shield at the same time here. If you start using one, you have to drop the other.
Do you say that souls are amplified when materialized by Third Magic, then? Paul's counterpoint is essentially that this "next level of life" is a direct consequence of souls being materialized, and nothing else. So I'll admit that your argument that Third Magic does an unmentioned... something that turns the soul into a pool of infinite energy doesn't seem particularly compelling. Especially given this bit:
That said, I do think the arguments for the opposing side are also a bit weird, considering you've just posted a quote where a character mentions burning out his own soul as fuel to such a degree that he barely has any soul anymore, and others where similar statements are made. In the face of that I'm not sold on how "Servants only convert the tiniest portion of souls absorbed into mana while the infinite majority fades out of reality" pans out as a counterargument.
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Not exactly. It's odd because the manner in which we're discussing the Third Magic is fairly detached from the way it's discussed in the series, so I think it will be helpful to clarify: The primary function of the Third Magic is immortality, it allows your to live without a separate body, because your soul can materialize. This is what is done to servants, it's the same process, the Holy Grail "gives shape to their soul" when the portions of them come for the war.
The main person seeking to use the Third Magic is a guy named Zouken Matou. He's been living for hundreds of years and keeps transferring his soul into new bodies, which keep dying of old age faster and faster, because his soul is deteriorating. If he uses the third magic, his soul will become immortal and he won't need to swap bodies anymore.
And when we are talking about the "infinite energy" it seems fairly clear this isn't in the fashion of an infinitely-large reservoir of energy, as the soul is described as a "perpetual motion machine" which suggests it can just keep going forever by itself. The "eternal continuation of the soul."
It's also just, definitely not the case that souls don't have finite energy. Paul very heavily emphasizes the maximum capacity that servants have, but the amount of energy that Servants (who are, themselves, souls) varies from servant to servant.
When Sakura absorbed Gilgamesh, the Holy Grail was already ready with five servants instead of the usual seven, because Gilgamesh's soul has more energy than the average servant. This amount was equated to "hundreds of thousands of souls."
Moreover, we know that it's not the case that they take some finite amount of energy and then the rest slips away, they can store the entire thing. Read this, I'll highlight the important part.
Caster had built up a reservoir of energy that was explicitly described as made up of "more than a thousand souls."
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No lol, that's how Mash's Skill works. We're told how Avalon works, it's by sending the user to Avalon/enshrouding them in it, it's very explicit and there's not even room to interpret differently. The only power of Avalon is making it so you're in Avalon. Hell this weird interpretation doesnt even make sense, shifting out of the time axis wouldn't let you avoid or block higher dimensional attacks, because those higher dimensions would be superior to the time axis, in other words, it has to be through superiority that Avalon can block (because it doesn't dodge, we literally see it blocks) attacks, all in all this comment makes 0 sense
Rhongomyniad additionally isn't even using them for fuel or anything, but rather just storing and granting them eternity, as the Lion King has become the king of the dead in this singularity
However for the Lucius bit, that needs a bit more context. Lucius burning his soul to move his body is simply not literal, looking at the rest of his monologue, we see Bedi wasn't being literal with everything he said
Bedivere (Lucius) has been alive for over 1500 years, a time Roman says is impossible, as even if Excalibur grants eternal life to the body, it will not stop the loss of the mind, in other words, the other parts of the trinity. Bedi possesses an unaging immortal body, the same as Artoria, thus he didn't actually ever need to burn his soul as fuel for it because lolexcalibur, rather, that's metaphorical for the fact that over the course of those years, to even keep going, he's worn down his mind and spirit, that's the exhaustion of his soul that's accumulating, when he actually does use up his soul is when he activates Excalbur, putting his soul into it to activate it, this is because, to activate the true name of an NP you put a piece of your Saint Graph into it. At the point he does that, we also learn he is just a plain human with a normal person's level of circuits, something impossible if his soul had literally been burnt for fuel
However we get yet another case where this isn't actually souls converted to mana.
No lol, that's how Mash's Skill works. We're told how Avalon works, it's by sending the user to Avalon/enshrouding them in it, it's very explicit and there's not even room to interpret differently. The only power of Avalon is making it so you're in Avalon. Hell this weird interpretation doesnt even make sense, shifting out of the time axis wouldn't let you avoid or block higher dimensional attacks, because those higher dimensions would be superior to the time axis, in other words, it has to be through superiority that Avalon can block (because it doesn't dodge, we literally see it blocks) attacks, all in all this comment makes 0 sense
Nothing here supports your argument? Your entire argument is "but muh it doesn't provide infinite amps". However everything you listed there that has or takes multiple souls besides Hassan, is a thing with absurd higher d power that would necessarily need more than infinite energy. Rhongomyniad the Sacred Lance, Onreido Castle which would delete the multiverse, the grail, etc. Hassan has multiple souls because Hassan is multiple people, it's really as simple as that, each one has a seperate mind and personality, which necessitates them having a different soul and everything, which is what we see.
Rhongomyniad additionally isn't even using them for fuel or anything, but rather just storing and granting them eternity, as the Lion King has become the king of the dead in this singularity
However for the Lucius bit, that needs a bit more context. Lucius burning his soul to move his body is simply not literal, looking at the rest of his monologue, we see Bedi wasn't being literal with everything he said
He's just making a point to describe how weakened he's become over the centuries, he didn't literally burn his soul bit by bit as fuel, same as his body isn't ash, and he doesn't lack a mind (he literally says his mind is still strong the next sentence), instead, later in the singularity we learn the truth
Bedivere (Lucius) has been alive for over 1500 years, a time Roman says is impossible, as even if Excalibur grants eternal life to the body, it will not stop the loss of the mind, in other words, the other parts of the trinity. Bedi possesses an unaging immortal body, the same as Artoria, thus he didn't actually ever need to burn his soul as fuel for it because lolexcalibur, rather, that's metaphorical for the fact that over the course of those years, to even keep going, he's worn down his mind and spirit, that's the exhaustion of his soul that's accumulating, when he actually does use up his soul is when he activates Excalbur, putting his soul into it to activate it, this is because, to activate the true name of an NP you put a piece of your Saint Graph into it. At the point he does that, we also learn he is just a plain human with a normal person's level of circuits, something impossible if his soul had literally been burnt for fuel
The reason this works btw, is explained rather clearly, when the soul is in a body, it is given a time limit, this time limit is the reason Zouken's soul is rotting. Thusly, if the body wasn't needed because the soul itself had become manifested as the third magic does, he would no longer rot.
That does not suggest that whatsoever? What part of having an unlimited source of energy, combined with perpetual motion machine (which would require infinite energy to work forever btw, due to the laws of thermodynamics), suddenly leads to the wildly different conclusion of "this just means it can keep going by itself because of the eternal continuation of the soul". A here does not lead to B, the text pretty plainly says there's unlimited energy, not just that the soul doesn't die, if that's all it was it would say it plainly
It also varies from human to human, yes. Servants are not souls by the way, I know you're trying to use the line saying they're souls materialized by the Heaven's Feel, but we're also told it's just a mockery of that. What a servant is not a manifested soul, but a copy of a soul placed into a container. This container is composed of magical energy.
This does not show your point, not only is Caster well, better than every other servant at this sorta thing as an AoG mage, this additionally isn't "she ate a soul, got 100% of the energy from it then manifested it" or "she took a soul and somehow stored all the energy from it in the air" this is "the mana she did acquire, put into the air".
However we get yet another case where this isn't actually souls converted to mana.
Caster explicitly keeps people alive to just suck out their magical energy over time to have an endless battery. As you quoted, she says that humans had only low amounts of magical energy, this is why draining too much resulted in them being in a coma, because what she was sucking out was their Od, their life energy. What this all seems to lead to is that Caster, despite Shirou's statement, isn't sucking the souls out of people (which is why they're still alive and just in comas). In fact we get explicit confirmation they're alive when Rin finds 50ish men rendered impotent to drain energy from, and we're told that she's using living people as a battery. So Shirou was just wrong.
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For the sake of concision, I'll wait until the other reviewing staff members provide their input, but I will note one thing:
Though again, this argument is just entirely untenable based on the source material, as indicated by the staggering number of hoops being jumped through in attempts to explain away the numerous instances in the lore where this theory is contradicted, and the complete absence of anything in the source material actually suggesting this.
Also, this is not possible. It's restated by the narration directly:
The collected magical energy, the stolen souls, remains here, and the mountain should consume anyone that may approach it.
It's then restated by Archer:
You created your territory here and collect souls from the people in this town.
It was also restated by Rin:
Yeah. As my Servant puts it, there's a witch up there. She is supposedly collecting souls on a large scale, so it'll be a problem if we don't do something about it fast.
And then restated by Saber:
I hear it is where the life of the region flows to, so it would be a perfect base to collect souls from.
And again restated with regard to Rider:
Like taking souls from the people in town, just like what Rider did
So, it can't just be Shirou. You'd have to argue that Shirou, Archer, Rin, Saber, and the narration itself were all mistaken about this.
This is wrong. A theoretical "perpetual motion machine" would be able to keep going forever without an external energy source due to consuming no energy. It's not possible to create one due to friction. However, the concept is that it can continue forever just from it's own mass inertia. The fact that this, specifically, is what the materialization of the soul is likened to hurts the argument that each individual human souls contains an infinite amount of energy.
Though again, this argument is just entirely untenable based on the source material, as indicated by the staggering number of hoops being jumped through in attempts to explain away the numerous instances in the lore where this theory is contradicted, and the complete absence of anything in the source material actually suggesting this.
Also, this is not possible. It's restated by the narration directly:
The collected magical energy, the stolen souls, remains here, and the mountain should consume anyone that may approach it.
It's then restated by Archer:
You created your territory here and collect souls from the people in this town.
It was also restated by Rin:
Yeah. As my Servant puts it, there's a witch up there. She is supposedly collecting souls on a large scale, so it'll be a problem if we don't do something about it fast.
And then restated by Saber:
I hear it is where the life of the region flows to, so it would be a perfect base to collect souls from.
And again restated with regard to Rider:
Like taking souls from the people in town, just like what Rider did
So, it can't just be Shirou. You'd have to argue that Shirou, Archer, Rin, Saber, and the narration itself were all mistaken about this.
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Discussion rules can be overturned simply by presenting new evidence. This thread most definitely has valuable things to say.
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The thing being argued can be repeated if new evidence exists.
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Who should I ping?
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Ideally those who are able and willing to contribute to Tier 1 topics.
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I was/am primarily waiting for @Ultima_Reality and @DarkGrath to continue their evaluations. I wasn't in any particular rush for this to be finished, so I haven't been nagging them too much over it, as I am sure they are busy with other things and this certainly isn't an easy thing to engage with.
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I'm busy right now, so, not exactly in a position to engage in wiki stuff at length. I'll try to drop by later today.
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No worries. I've been pretty busy myself the last few weeks so if you don't get to it today it's not a big deal.
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Well?
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Yeah, I got caught up in some account problems as of late. Couldn't log into the forum for a while. It's late here right now, but I'll set apart some time to look over this in more depth later.
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I am currently attending to university exams, so my response to this will inevitably be delayed. I apologise in advance. I will see if I can give a proper response within the next three days or so.
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I am currently focusing on University entrance exams coming later this week, so I can't delve into wiki discussions at any significant length, currently. I'll only be free to do so in the next week.
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@Ultima_Reality Can you comment now?
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Ultima said on Discord that he's not interested in dealing with high tier stuff until his revisions are over. I will ask some other mods to look it over.
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Ask for who? Have you asked yet?
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Despite my best efforts, I think this thread also has fallen into the trap of becoming far far too long for anyone to reasonably evaluate, so I will close it now and later on address one matter at a time in separate threads.
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