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Yeah but this logic stops working beyond a single dimension.
Imagine having a 3D box that's infinite in length and width but only 10cm tall.
You could stack an infinite amount of those on top of each other without needing a 4th spatial dimension
That's because the boxes aren't truly parallel to each other.
 
whats the argument here regarding spaces and what not, what did i miss
and if its about kaguya switching dimensions explain how its not hax?
 
If it was spatial manipulation kaguya would have had "4B or low2c" with spatial manipulation. People on the wiki have it. But it's space time manipulation not spatial manipulation.

Yes it requires energy to do it no one is disputing that. But what amount? Like explain it are you saying it requires 4b amount of energy? Or low 2c? What exactly are you saying amd explain how you got the value
Karo im not attacking you🙏 but can you show me a link that explains Spacetime manipulation, not time manipulation or spatial manipulation but both together🙏
 
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."
 
Yeah but this logic stops working beyond a single dimension.
Imagine having a 3D box that's infinite in length and width but only 10cm tall.
You could stack an infinite amount of those on top of each other without needing a 4th spatial dimension
what kind of infinite? Aleph-Null or 2^Aleph-Null? those are two VERY different things
 
the point is how are you going to translate kaguya's teleportation into a measurable statistic, theres no KE, PE , and using the energy consumption as means to translate that to other effects doesnt work because theres no causation between them.
 
Karo im not attacking you🙏 but can you show me a link that explains Spacetime manipulation, not time manipulation or spatial manipulation but both together🙏
There isn't one on the wiki. Subset abilities are not explained most of the time. But if you check the spatial manipulation page there is a note at the end on space time manipulation
 
the point is how are you going to translate kaguya's teleportation into a measurable statistic, theres no KE, PE , and using the energy consumption as means to translate that to other effects doesnt work because theres no causation between them.
Do you need KE, PE, if you are significantly affecting a space-time continuum?
Though for the other I will pose a question about that ( though I have some answer I'm currently in a debate with a person and I'm gatekeeping that point)


There isn't one on the wiki. Subset abilities are not explained most of the time. But if you check the spatial manipulation page there is a note at the end on space time manipulation
so manipulating Time is Time manipulation, manipulating space is Spacial manipulation and manipulate both is Space-Time manipulation.

Can you tell me why again Amenominaka does not get a rating for Significantly affecting a Space-Time continuum?
 
Idk, I think he knows that you need uncountably infinite to reach the next dimension. If that's what you're referring to. (I could be wrong tho)
what kind of infinite? Aleph-Null or 2^Aleph-Null? those are two VERY different things
Doesn't the context make it obvious?
I'm talking about 2 or more 4D universes with infinite space coexisting without the need for an additional 5th dimension.

Also I don't fw dimensional tiering enough to remember what Aleph-null and 2^Aleph-Null mean so you would need to expand on that 😭
 
Do you need KE, PE, if you are significantly affecting a space-time continuum?
yes especially when your means of moving is via teleportation
so manipulating Time is Time manipulation, manipulating space is Spacial manipulation and manipulate both is Space-Time manipulation.

Can you tell me why again Amenominaka does not get a rating for Significantly affecting a Space-Time continuum?
she does which is why she has space-time manipulation in her profile.
 
oh god.....
see I knew he was talking about countably infinite.
Also I don't fw dimensional tiering enough to remember what Aleph-null and 2^Aleph-Null mean so you would need to expand on that 😭
Aleph null means a set of countably infinite items, you need at least an uncountably infinite (power set of countably infinite) number of 3D spaces to reach 4D. Which is prolly not what you're talking about.
 
Actually David, instead of me explaining set theory rn, I'll just link you the wiki standards since that is most likely what you care about.
scroll down to "Regarding separation of Universes"
 
Which numbers are you referring to? Are you talking about the density parameter from the Friedmann equations?

Except in those cases the speed of light is mentioned. Continued below.

In Uzuhiko's case, it is mentioned that rotational KE is used. But unlike the previous two examples, we have no idea how chakra and tears in spacetime are related. What is the exact relation between chakra and spacetime? Is chakra tearing space through its sheer mass? Or is it just fundamentally easier for Chakra to tear space? Unlike SoL statements or Uzuhiko where we are outright given the speed or AP, we have no idea how chakra is causing the tears in space. You claim that it is similar to how celestial objects cause curvature in space, but that is nowhere stated to be the case.

The issue in short is this:
1. SoL statements: character moves at sol. We don't need any assumptions to conclude the speed of the character. We only need assumptions for its repercussions.
2. Uzuhiko: The character can hit you with planetary KE. Again we don't need any assumptions to conclude the AP.
3. Tears in space: We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc. For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
To clarify, the only reason I mentioned Uzuhiko was in response to your claim about space-time tears causing black holes and gravitational effects. My point was Uzuhiko harnesses planetary energy without causing destruction, showing that Naruto’s universe doesn’t adhere to real-world consequences like black holes or gravitational anomalies when manipulating space or energy. This is crucial to understanding how power scaling in Naruto operates under different rules.





1. Speed of Light (SoL) Statements: You are correct that when characters move at light speed, no assumptions are needed for their speed. But the lack of real-world consequences, such as atmospheric destruction or time dilation, shows that Naruto doesn’t apply real-world physics for the effects of these feats.


2. Uzuhiko: While planetary energy is used, it doesn’t destroy the planet—something that would occur in reality. This shows Naruto’s universe picks and chooses when real-world effects apply, further supporting the idea that space-time tears wouldn’t follow real-world gravitational consequences.


Now for the final and most important part, the other parts are just supportive argument

Tears in space:
We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc.
Answer= We already agreed that Naruto hosts in him a mass of energy the being is considered to have a chakra pull so massive, it is immeasurable ( now I'm not saying infinite, just unquantifiable ).


For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
Answer- well I already explained how fiction logic does not always equate to real level logic, hence the examples above. The focus here is the feat just like in the case of Uzuhiko.

This is the feat here, Naruto just by existing is causing tears in space. An abnormality so bad it needs to be reported to the otutsuki clan. The reason the space curvature exceeded the amount required was because of the mass of energy present in Naruto.



Notice Momoshiki focus was kurama literally referring to him as energy.

Yes especially when your means of moving is via teleportation

she does which is why she has space-time manipulation in her profile.
No you are wrong




Guy I have been up since yesterday. I will reply later to any other argument I need to rest.
 
see I knew he was talking about countably infinite.

Aleph null means a set of countably infinite items, you need at least an uncountably infinite (power set of countably infinite) number of 3D spaces to reach 4D. Which is prolly not what you're talking about.
Hello please read my argument that took some time. I enjoy debating you.👍
 
Why aren't we scaling the war arc gedo mazo to 7x Bijuu level value (which would be like 30.1 GTs). It has 7 Bijuus right?
 
1. Speed of Light (SoL) Statements: You are correct that when characters move at light speed, no assumptions are needed for their speed. But the lack of real-world consequences, such as atmospheric destruction or time dilation, shows that Naruto doesn’t apply real-world physics for the effects of these feats.
I never said Naruto adheres to real world physics. If I thought that then I wouldn't spend time here. That has no bearing on my point tho.
2. Uzuhiko: While planetary energy is used, it doesn’t destroy the planet—something that would occur in reality. This shows Naruto’s universe picks and chooses when real-world effects apply, further supporting the idea that space-time tears wouldn’t follow real-world gravitational consequences.
Exactly, it picks and chooses when to apply real world physics. Which means it can choose to have tears in spacetime without having anything to do with mass and gravity.
Tears in space:
We need to assume that chakra causing tears in space is the same as mass causing tears in space cuz only then can you use the black hole calc.
Answer= We already agreed that Naruto hosts in him a mass of energy the being is considered to have a chakra pull so massive, it is immeasurable ( now I'm not saying infinite, just unquantifiable ).
Chakra isn't irl energy or matter. It's a supernatural concept that can be converted to matter or energy as we know irl. You need to prove that chakra bending space works the same way as energy or matter bending space cuz we can see chakra doesn't act like that. This is why we have standards for black holes. Even if a character supposedly creates a black hole, but it doesn't act the way a black hole would, it isn't given the stats of a black hole. Same with lasers and lightning. You need to first provide evidence that chakra bending space works in the same way as irl matter or energy.
For that to happen you'd also need to conclude that Naruto's chakra is causing an increase in mass surrounding him. But we don't see that at all. Only then can you claim anything about the AP.
Answer- well I already explained how fiction logic does not always equate to real level logic, hence the examples above. The focus here is the feat just like in the case of Uzuhiko.
Fiction still needs to prove certain things to get past the standards on this wiki. Tearing spacetime doesn't have concrete standards but your proposal isn't likely to be accepted.
This is the feat here, Naruto just by existing is causing tears in space. An abnormality so bad it needs to be reported to the otutsuki clan. The reason the space curvature exceeded the amount required was because of the mass of energy present in Naruto.



Notice Momoshiki focus was kurama literally referring to him as energy.

Like I stated above, you first would need to show that bending space via chakra functions the same way as bending space via matter or energy. You are starting with an assumption there. Which is not what we do when treating SoL statements or Uzuhiko having planetary KE.
 
Would it affect Butterfly Mode Choji? And that Earth Shinobi's Jutsu?
Pretty sure the Gedo Mazo folded those easily so the scaling chain is likely isolated. But you can probably argue that Choji would downscale 100x from Gedo Mazo which puts him at 300 MTs (7-A) which could scale to every "Elite Jonin" (currently 7-B+) tier.

This does have an issue in which Choji would have a jutsu that puts him 7x Bijuu level, even stronger than early KCM2 Naruto. Consistency issues.
 
Aleph null means a set of countably infinite items, you need at least an uncountably infinite (power set of countably infinite) number of 3D spaces to reach 4D. Which is prolly not what you're talking about.
That's what I thought but why would anyone assume I was talking about an uncountably infinite amount of universes? My point was basically the exact opposite
 
That's what I thought but why would anyone assume I was talking about an uncountably infinite amount of universes? My point was basically the exact opposite
Idk. Ask Ryzen. I correctly assumed you were talking about countable infinity. Anyways read the link I shared. That should conclude our discussion about 3D parallel spaces needing 4D plane to be separated if one or more of them are universal in size i.e Low 2C.
 
Anyways read the link I shared. That should conclude our discussion about 3D parallel spaces needing 4D plane to be separated if one or more of them are universal in size i.e Low 2C.
Honestly that page is kidna weird. It kidna makes it sound like any connected multiverse composed of spacetimes would be Low 1-C.

Which makes it sound a lot easier than I thought.
 
Honestly that page is kidna weird. It kidna makes it sound like any connected multiverse composed of spacetimes would be Low 1-C.

Which makes it sound a lot easier than I thought.
No. Being 5D doesn't equate to being Low 1-C. Every multiversal void is 5D, but to be Low 1-C, the 5th dimension needs to be of significant size (uncountably infinite). That is why most 2-C and above verses aren't Low 1-C on the wiki.
 
Also speaking of dimensional tiering, I am surprised none of y'all have started gooning about the prescience chapter. I mean even if I disagree, I was expecting some chaos by now.
 
No. Being 5D doesn't equate to being Low 1-C. Every multiversal void is 5D, but to be Low 1-C, the 5th dimension needs to be of significant size (uncountably infinite). That is why most 2-C and above verses aren't Low 1-C on the wiki.
Yeah I heard that (never actually saw it in the wiki rules) but that doesn't really make sense and nobody ever say what qualifies as "significant size"
 
Also speaking of dimensional tiering, I am surprised none of y'all have started gooning about the prescience chapter. I mean even if I disagree, I was expecting some chaos by now.
Well probably the only character who's affected by it rn is Shibai and he doesn't have a page yet. I'm fully expecting pure dimensional brainrot after he gets a profile 😭
 
Yeah I heard that (never actually saw it in the wiki rules) but that doesn't really make sense and nobody ever say what qualifies as "significant size"
Basically the 5th dimension needs to stretch out to a length equivalent of the width of uncountably infinite Low 2-C structures. That's what I mean by significant size.
Well probably the only character who's affected by it rn is Shibai and he doesn't have a page yet. I'm fully expecting pure dimensional brainrot after he gets a profile 😭
6D Shibai ftw.
 
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