- 15,998
- 6,001
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
- 15,415
- 15,768
Only the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan does. Base Sharingan and MS definitely don’t (actually MS could be arguable but it’s very weird).
- 10,760
- 16,024
Bandit seems to believe so
- 15,998
- 6,001
MS is literally why Itachi survived Kirin, lol.
- 15,415
- 15,768
*Susano’o
- 3,955
- 3,103
- 21,468
- 30,790
He pulled out Susanoo, it didn't raise his physicals
Oof
Even that is sketchy (we've had our many debates)
- 10,760
- 16,024
So activating MS is what saved Itachi instead of Susanoo then?
- 15,998
- 6,001
Susanoo is literally a power of MS, stop playing stupid, c'mon.
- 10,760
- 16,024
- 15,415
- 15,768
Can someone summarize what’s happened in here, why is High 7-A Haku a discussion (as amazing as it would be, it doesn’t make sense).
- 15,998
- 6,001
He pulled out the MS, which contains Susanoo, an ability that raises his physicals.
- 3,295
- 1,922
- Thread starter
- #1,933
I have never been a fan of this idea.
- 10,760
- 16,024
Using the Statement that Haku is above Kakashi, the statement that Guy is a threat to the Akatsuki, etc.
Haku clashing with Base Lee, taking hits from Base Guy, and Lee equates to Haku being above War Arc Kakashi
- 10,760
- 16,024
The Susanoo has its own physicals which are greater than Sick Itachi's
- 15,998
- 6,001
Again, faucet of the MS.
I said around, not above.
- 10,760
- 16,024
Which doesn't make Itachi himself the same level as Susanoo
- 15,998
- 6,001
It is literally his chakra that sustains it, but, okay I guess.
- 21,468
- 30,790
Itachi's fingers don't get stronger when Susanoo is active.
Simple.
Simple.
- 11,928
- 11,547
But are you sure that simply being out of chakra (I'm being generous here, Haku was actually just "low on chakra") is enough to say that Haku being trashed by a characters Tiers below him (KN0 Naruro) is actually consistent? I mean, I know that when a character is low on chakra, he tired as ****, but it was never a reason to say that their durability decreased.
And like, you'd have a High 7-A character fighting two Low End 8-B characters, while the High 7-A has a 7-C partner fighting another 7-C character.... I mean, it sounds weird, really weird. I know that things aren't always consistent in fiction, and calling them weird isn't an argument, but like, c'mon, Haku being able to literally one shot 90% of Konoha is just stupid and makes no sense with the narrative.
- 15,415
- 15,768
So Part I Kakashi, the one that scales to the Sound Four.
Eight Gates. Those are things that exist. This was directly shown in the series when Sixth Gate Guy pummeled 30% Kisame. Also with the way the databook words it, it’s not just AP. It’s AP + taijutsu skill + determination that lets him be “more than equal to anyone in the Akatsuki.”
This is actually valid, however, neither of those two scale to War Arc Kakashi in base. Guy scales to Part I Kakashi, slightly above him, and Lee... is kinda featless tbh. If anything, Lee should be scaling to Haku due to their clash.
- 15,998
- 6,001
- 21,468
- 30,790
Base Guy is inconsistent via his "outlier" scaling to Obito
- 15,415
- 15,768
If those are the only arguments, Haku’s tier shouldn’t change. Well, actually, he should be solid 7-C, not ‘At least 8-B, possibly 7-C’ but you know what I mean.
He scales above P1 Kakashi and Zabuza, and he scales to base Guy, who also scales (slightly) above P1 Kakashi and Zabuza.
The only thing that’s possibly inconsistent is Haku getting absolutely bullied by KN0, although you could say Haku was still suppressed there and KN0 should have an ‘up to’ tier anyways.
He scales above P1 Kakashi and Zabuza, and he scales to base Guy, who also scales (slightly) above P1 Kakashi and Zabuza.
The only thing that’s possibly inconsistent is Haku getting absolutely bullied by KN0, although you could say Haku was still suppressed there and KN0 should have an ‘up to’ tier anyways.
- 15,998
- 6,001
That's the thing with me, he was already suppressed, he used way too much chakra against Base Naruto and Sasuke, so much to the point where his needles couldn't even pierce his skin that deep.
- 11,928
- 11,547
Well, isn't that enough to scale? It's been years since I've read that part of the manga, but I do remember KN0 defeating Haku, or at least, having feats enough to scale. Don't you think the same thing?
You don't need to concede just because "it doesn't make sense to everyone else". An argument is an argument and needs to be countered first. And that's what I trying to do here. Actually, I'm not even completely disagreeing, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. While I think that Haku should be a bit higher, I don't think he should be THAT high.
- 15,415
- 15,768
I think I’ve already listed my gripes with that, Sixth Gate Guy was squaring up with the jinchūriki, who scale to KCM, who Obito scales above.
Also Guy only blocked a single hit from Obito, so yeah. Definitely an outlier.
- 10,760
- 16,024
Why?
- 15,998
- 6,001
The exact exchange is:
Haku throws needles, Naruto deflects, Haku strikes and attempts to hit Naruto, Naruto dodges and then grabs him, breaks all his mirrors, Haku states he can't hold his chakra back anymore, gets punched, and stands up, and says he's finished. The previous chapter, Haku states "I can't let this fight go on! My own art forces me to expend a great deal of chakra, so there's a limit to how long I can go on using it!", before immediately going for Naruto. His attacks are even stated to get weaker as it goes on.
I think bare minimum he should be 7-A, tbh. But his feats are weird, so I understand contention against him.
- 10,760
- 16,024
Zabuza sure but does Haku have any Lifting Strength feats on that Level?
- 21,468
- 30,790
Wasn't 6th Gate Guy sending them flying?
And idk if the Jins scale to KCM. Heck, they fought him in base, and Naruto could block them with chakra arms but he was getting pushed back by a base Han and knocked around w/out the chakra arms.
Clashed with his Gunbai, deflected his kunai, could keep up with him in speed, and could block him while getting complimented by KCM Naruto.
- 3,295
- 1,922
- Thread starter
- #1,954
No, I don't remember him having them. I guess he has it for scaling to Kakashi and Zabuza.
- 11,928
- 11,547
Hmm, this changes a few things. I remembered as a stomp in KN0 Naruto's favor, not like a fair match like that. But still, KN0 being able to harm Haku is actually enough to scale him to High 7-A (???). I get that his AP was getting weaker, sure, but by how much? The gap between High 7-A and KN0's Tier (7-C) is actually huge, and depending on how weak Haku was, it'd still be enough for KN0 to be one shot'ed.
I mean, if you ask me, I wouldn't separate Part 1 and 2 Kakashi. I'd make him as "Part 1 and 2 | War Arc Kakashi | Dual MS" and only that. Maybe we can work with that if people agree.
- 10,760
- 16,024
- 15,415
- 15,768
V2 Fū blocked a hit from him iirc.
Actually that’s partial transformations, not base. And KCM Naruto is still capable of taking hits from the V2 jinchūriki, most notably Yagura and Yugito.
That’s not really clashing, it’s just Obito blocking his hit. We don’t scale AP to things like kunai and shuriken, and speed doesn’t really matter to me rn. Our speed scaling is weird in general.
- 15,998
- 6,001
It is never stated, but it's noted he is very heavily suppressed. Haku still aimed for non-vitals, as stated by Sasuke, and literally pierced his leg in the same panel, and then next chapter Sasuke continued to adapt to his (restricted) speed, and is noticeably shown dodging, THEN Haku goes for his "deathblow" before Naruto can react.
I agree.
- 15,415
- 15,768
