Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling

[M3X_2.0]

No he doesnt need a sick key, it it useless

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree with Jvando about the Madara situation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The proposals seen here look good.

 

[AstralKing7]

Thanks thanks for the evaluation

 

[BlackeJan]

It was said somewhere (iirc) that Hiruzen or Kakashi said that if he Jiraiya should be the next Holage instead of Tsunade cause of his skills.

If Tsunade is to be Rel with transformation then so should SM Jiraiya as well and Snake Oro

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think there's anything linking Jiraiya's Sage Mode to the stats of Tsunade's transformation and Orochimaru's giant snake form.

I'll take a look through the sandbox now.

 

[Damage3245]

Notes on the proposal in the sandbox:

I don't think that Kisame's statement mentions anything in regards to Itachi's speed. Not sure that's good justification.

There is some circular reasoning going on between the Six Paths of Pain and Sage Mode Naruto.

Tobi was able to toy with Naruto's team because he's intangible, not because he was shown to be significantly faster than them.

Killer B's feat of travelling from one mountain to another over a short span of time isn't support for "At least MHS+" speeds.

Wasn't Konan blitzed by Tobi at least once during their fight? I don't recall her keeping up with him in speed a whole lot.

 

[AstralKing7]

I don't remember Konan getting blitzed at all.

Tobi still scales faster than Naruto and co who weren't even close to be able to tag him before he activated his Kamui

 

[M3X_2.0]

Killer B crossed a mountain while Jügo and Suigetsu couldn't see him. Two MHS+ characters couldn't see Bee. And the entire fight was just him toying with Taka, and even giving Sasuke a hard time.

Konan was never blizted by Tobi.

Jvando is mrk and didn't change Nagato's key. The key is his Edo form, not the Pains.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I fixed the justification for SM Naruto, I believe the other should be fine as they are.

 

[Damage3245]

The Konan scene I remembered was this followed by this. As for the rest of the fight, Konan doesn't show any sign of actually being equal to Tobi in speed; she throws ranged attacks at him, he phases through them. She charges at him (leaving an opening so he would materalize) and he catches her and still manages to avoid the damage of her explosions by warping them away. Then he rushes her as she's preparing an attack and instantly Genjutsu's her.

I don't see her being "At least Massively Hypersonic+" for that. Just MHS+ seems fine.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

That seems.fine to me. Once that change is made, can I update the profiles?

 

[AstralKing7]

That's not a blitz wtf Damage ƒÿ¡. She wasn't even focusing and she literally had an opening.

Guess I'll go get the whole scenes for the fight and not jsut one instance that's obviously a misinterpretation

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; I just described the entire fight in summary. Please reread it though and see if there's anything else.

@Wrath of Itachi; Naruto doesn't have a justification for being "Likely far higher".

 

[AstralKing7]

I jsut read the fight. Damage next time you bring scans please show the events prior which lead up to them.

The small scene that you showed having Konan getting "Blitzed" is false and misinterpreted. She literally got stabbed right before that even happened

Next Konan has attack speed that scales to Obito. She was even able to attack him with her papa we before he could finish using Kamui.

Next evidence is before she split the sea she was literally able to slip her paper bombs around Obito before he could finish using Kamui and she was able to close this distance between her and Obito right after he solidified

 

[Damage3245]

> The small scene that you showed having Konan getting "Blitzed" is false and misinterpreted. She literally got stabbed right before that even happened

I'm not seeing how this is relevant. Do you disagree that Konan got attacked by Tobi before she could react?

As for the rest, Konan's attacks still don't suggest anything higher than MHS+ to me.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I am with Astral here

 

[AstralKing7]

Actually damage you are completely wrong because after I got those scans I found another scan where she was completely out of chakra. And we both know what that means. I don't think I have to tell you chakra is equal to stamina right?

Please re read the manga again because what you are doing is completely dishonest when you are going back to the manga and picking out scenes which are useful for you argument

Damage she literally moved her paper bombs faster than Obito could move. That's her attack speed. She attacks with paper. What don't you understand cause that's as simple as it gets

 

[Damage3245]

Clearly she was not completely out of chakra since she was preparing a Ninjutsu as she was blitzed.

I suggest you tone it a down a notch; just because I might have missed a page doesn't mean you should accuse me baselessly of only picking out pages that suit my argument. You're making assumptions that just make you look bad. There's no need to try and turn a civil thread into an argument.

I'll be back on this thread in a couple hours.

 

[Antvasima]

@Staff members

What are the conclusions here?

 

[M3X_2.0]

We are still discusssing the justifications for every Tier, DDM, Damage and Jvando are helping us.

I know I am not a staff member but I want to help anyway

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; as M3X said, we're currently going through the revision tier by tier and discussing the justifications. The Low Tiers and Mid Tiers have already been updated.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage she was nearly out of almost all of her chakra.

She was preparing a Jutsu. It doesn't even take that long for her to prepare her jutsus.

You continue to ignore that lol but u can literally see her breathing heavy and even on the ground. She couldn't even react to Obito even tho she reacted to him earlier before she used that jutsu.

At this point you are downplaying when she states the jutsu takes a lot of chakra

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; saying that she's better as "Massively Hypersonic+" instead of "At least Massively Hypersonic+" isn't downplaying.

In both the cases of her combat that you linked, she already had Tobi surrounded by paper bombs. She mixed in paper bombs to the barrage of paper she was sending Tobi's way, and as Tobi was falling he was already surrounded at that point. Yes, she reacted to him activating his teleportation but I don't see why that makes her higher than MHS+.

As for Obito, the only solid reason in the sandbox for why he should be "At least Massively Hypersonic+" is because he fought Minato. This was at the time when Obito was wearing the Tobi-bodysuit IIRC and even then he didn't manage to keep up with Minato who had a pretty distinct advantage over him in that fight.

I think it would be better for both Konan and Tobi to be just MHS+.

I recommend that you don't try and accuse your opponent of "downplaying" when I'm trying to be as fair as possible here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the summaries. It doesn't seem like you need my help then, so I will unsubscribe. If that should change later, you can leave me a message.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So are the other justifications fine? Is Konans the only one we still need to discuss?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Now that I think about it, I think these characters should scale to Sub-Rel. Since Tobi fought Minato and he is listed as Sub-Rel on the list, we should discuss if tobi scales to Sub-Rel or not.

 

[AstralKing7]

Exactly^


Damage what do you mean as fair as possible?? You are saying you are being fair like you can just decide what happens. If you're wrong dude you're wrong.

 

[JooCipher]

Obito did fight somewhat on pair with Minato so I guess putting a "possibly" or "likely" Sub Rel on his profile sounds fair

 

[M3X_2.0]

We can also put "Sub-Relativistic" reactions with Sharingan

 

[AstralKing7]

I feel like he should have sub rel perception speed with sharingan not reaction but he would normally just need the reaction speed to be sub rel anyway because you have to have speed relative to the opponent you are fighting

 

[AstralKing7]

Obito also activates his abilities faster than Minato can teleport if that is any support for him being sub rel again and scaling to Minato more solid

 

[MostPowerfull]

Minato sure is Sub-Rel. Not only for being able to hit Obito just as he minimally contracted his muscles and solidified, but also his impressive reactions against A's Top Speed.

I think I agree with Tobi it should be MHS+ w / Sub-Rel reactions.

 

[Mindovin]

From what I remember only time Minato used his speed against Tobi he need to coordinate with his kunai to bypass Kamui.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What do you mean by "Used his speed"? Minato normally would scale to Sub-Rel

 

[AstralKing7]

Minato is faster than Ay he scales for sure. No need to make this any more difficult than what it is. We can use supporting statements as well. Ay also considers Minato faster. Actually this is good. Obito was fast enough to perceive and react to Ay

Yeah Obito has more stuff backing him up to sub rel.

I'm completely for it now guys

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Obito reacted to him with no effort. I dont really think there is much of a difference between the Onito that found Minato and the one at the Five Kage Summit.

 

[Mindovin]

Running speed not FTG. Obito ambush, he teleports. Obito attacks, he waits. He and Obito run each other but hee need to coordinate with his kunai. He teleports to Tobi. so I can't safely say he runs at max speed or something similar. Only thing possibly scale Tobi to Minato is this but I'm not sure how or it's possible.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage what do you mean as fair as possible?? You are saying you are being fair like you can just decide what happens. If you're wrong dude you're wrong.

Dude, I have no idea what you're talking about now. You're coming off as unnecessarily hostile when all we're doing is discussing some ratings.

 

[Damage3245]

> Minato is faster than Ay he scales for sure.

Isn't that just in terms of reactions? I don't remember any speed he used to overwhelm A that wasn't done through his teleportation.