Naruto: Shippuden Akatsuki (+others) AP upgrade

[Foliedeux]

SO I'm getting two different answers regarding Sakura... either Sasori was holding back which should lower his durability and Sakura would've died without Chio, or Sakura was just that strong and fast. Which one is it.

Also, did we see hoe Sasori killed the 3rd Kazekage. He uses poison a lot so it doesn't mean he physically beat him.

Sasori only held back once Chiyo brought out the mother and father puppets, he was monologuing how he wanted to kill Sakura and how she was insanely quick with the databooks stating this is due to her evasion, not Sasori's character. Them beating Sasori is due to his character, however them contending with him has nothing to do with that. They actually are insanely powerful, no reason for Sasori to lie, he even trusted them to fighting Orochimaru (His rival)

Doesn't matter, he uses his jutsu that made him the strongest (on a similar level) and it is considered to make Sasori incredibly powerful. Chiyo never once questions his strength and it is supposed to be a direct comparison to Deidara (Who fought Gaara) while Sasori fought and defeated a stronger Kazekage. Sasori also considers his own body superior to the third kazekage, and stated that the 3rd was difficult to beat, implying there was a fight and they were relative enough to dodge eachothers attacks for a time. (Since Sasori's poison is instant paralysis and kill)

 

[Damage3245]

Rasa doesn't even scale to 6-C and has no showings remotely comparable to the Biju Bomb, so this is a moot point.

 

[Wuke]

Rasa doesn't even scale to 6-C and has no showings remotely comparable to the Biju Bomb, so this is a moot point.

If he doesn't scale to Rasa on the wiki then that needs to change too, because Rasa literally brawled and subdued shukaku with his gold dust

 

[Foliedeux]

Exactly.

So much speculative reasoning going on in this thread to justify these upgrades.

How is that an "Exactly"

"I have made a consistent case even disregarding the anime."
"Exactly!!"

?

 

[Wuke]

Sasori only held back once Chiyo brought out the mother and father puppets, he was monologuing how he wanted to kill Sakura and how she was insanely quick with the databooks stating this is due to her evasion, not Sasori's character. Them beating Sasori is due to his character, however them contending with him has nothing to do with that. They actually are insanely powerful, no reason for Sasori to lie, he even trusted them to fighting Orochimaru (His rival)

Doesn't matter, he uses his jutsu that made him the strongest (on a similar level) and it is considered to make Sasori incredibly powerful. Chiyo never once questions his strength and it is supposed to be a direct comparison to Deidara (Who fought Gaara) while Sasori fought and defeated a stronger Kazekage. Sasori also considers his own body superior to the third kazekage, and stated that the 3rd was difficult to beat, implying there was a fight and they were relative enough to dodge eachothers attacks for a time. (Since Sasori's poison is instant paralysis and kill)

Yeah the two things arent mutually exclusive

 

[Foliedeux]

Rasa doesn't even scale to 6-C and has no showings remotely comparable to the Biju Bomb, so this is a moot point.

In the numerous fights with Shukaku rampaging and bloodlusted he never used a Bijuu Bomb? I thought this was a rationalist website, not an empircal one.

Also, the Bijuu Bomb scalese to the Bijuu's durability and other attacks. I have ZERO idea why you're acting like their Bijuu Bomb is multiple orders of magnitude stronger than their normal stats... lol.

 

[Arcker123]

All bijuu have 6-C dura, why do they need bijuu bomb feats specifically?

 

[Damage3245]

If he doesn't scale to Rasa on the wiki then that needs to change too, because Rasa literally brawled and subdued shukaku with his gold dust

That doesn't imply harming him or overpowering the Biju Bomb.

You're lacking in crucial feats, and resorting to total speculation.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

That doesn't imply harming him or overpowering the Biju Bomb.

You're lacking in crucial feats, and resorting to total speculation.

you're just using big words and clearly skimming everybody's arguments
pls get a different staff

 

[Wuke]

That doesn't imply harming him or overpowering the Biju Bomb.

You're lacking in crucial feats, and resorting to total speculation.

No, you are just ignoring my arguments. I already showed why the strikes should scale regardless given that they can harm other bijuu with it, and they can tank their own BB, idk why you're placing the BB on a pedestal, just seems like incredulity

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yeah I obviously agree with the OP. It makes sense for Akatsuki members to be Tier 6, while all the other feats are 7-C or a bit above. Make Sage Mode Naruto Biju level and let's pretend that a much stronger form almost died for a Bijū didn't happen.

This topic needs a discussion rule.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Bijuu power levels are radically different by the end of the series than how they are portrayed earlier on in Shippuden and in part 1, and back scaling them causes numerous problems to the integrity of the scaling chain.

a lot of times these things don't make much sense because in the context of long-running series a lot of Authors don't have "power levels" set in stone until their most crucial moments and the best compromise we can make is to just create a scaling chain relative to their impact in the story for consistency sake. and most of the Akatsuki stuff is either off-screen and devoid of context or expanded in non-canon material, making their consistent showings in the war arc our primary source.

 

[Foliedeux]

Yeah I obviously agree with the OP. It makes sense for Akatsuki members to be Tier 6, while all the other feats are 7-C or a bit above. Make Sage Mode Naruto Biju level and let's pretend that a much stronger form almost died for a Bijū didn't happen.

This topic needs a discussion rule.

How does KCM1 Naruto who almost passed out from fatigued after almost solo stomping every Edo Tensei + Kage, fighting Nagato / Itachi, then having to fight every Jinchuuriki at once and then struggling to beat a Perfect Jinchuuriki a good argument?

Sage Naruto also was fast enough to react and move around the 3rd Raikage, and even damaged him through his lightning cloak with just a Rasengan (Not including his own attack hitting him)

Not Bijuu level tho?

 

[Wuke]

Bijuu power levels are radically different by the end of the series than how they are portrayed earlier on in Shippuden and in part 1, and back scaling them causes numerous problems to the integrity of the scaling chain.

a lot of times these things don't make much sense because in the context of long-running series a lot of Authors don't have "power levels" set in stone until their most crucial moments and the best compromise we can make is to just create a scaling chain relative to their impact in the story for consistency sake. and most of the Akatsuki stuff is either off-screen and devoid of context or expanded in non-canon material, making their consistent showings in the war arc our primary source.

Or just stated to be stronger. I already gave the argument for the bijuu/jinchuuriki being weaker in the war arc if anything. So you're saying narrative impact determines power??? So Jiraiya should be one of the strongest characters in the verse, got it. It just seems to me like you're blatantly ignoring the narrative of the akatsuki which was to CAPTURE and KILL bijuu and the databook supports this! My interpretation follows the narrative, yours contradicts it. So if you want to talk about narrative consistency, why don't you start there

 

[M3X_2.0]

Stamina argument doesn't help you. As long as he can use Kurama's chakra, he doesn't get tired. He showed no signal of being weaker because of the chakra. He was full when he fought Son Goku, and needed a boost in strenght to escape.

This bullshit makes characters clearly below Bijū level as Bijū level.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I thought Obito was amping the Bijuu that fought KCM Naruto since KCM2 Naruto could smack them and yet Obito can fight him just fine?

 

[Foliedeux]

Bijuu power levels are radically different by the end of the series than how they are portrayed earlier on in Shippuden and in part 1, and back scaling them causes numerous problems to the integrity of the scaling chain.

a lot of times these things don't make much sense because in the context of long-running series a lot of Authors don't have "power levels" set in stone until their most crucial moments and the best compromise we can make is to just create a scaling chain relative to their impact in the story for consistency sake. and most of the Akatsuki stuff is either off-screen and devoid of context or expanded in non-canon material, making their consistent showings in the war arc our primary source.

How does back scaling cause any problems with the scaling chain, elaborate. Also you realize that saying the Bijuu are stronger causes narrative problems correct? Why doesn't Obito, Zetsu, or anybody with a valid opinion on the matter ever say they are more powerful? Wouldn't that be crucial to his plan? Seems like a leap, and I demand serious proof for that serious claim. (Occams Razor)

We don't need power levels to interpret the series for our self. Cringe. Akatsuki stuff being off screen doesn't matter, when we already have enough information to make a case, such as Kakuzu was slow enough to get hit by Yugito but could beat her in a close range brawl that lasted multiple hours. Not Bijuu level though?

Non canon? You can't make these claims without evidence, why are these works non canon? Do you think the Databooks aren't canon? Because they are written and signed by Kishimoto himself literally in the books.

 

[Wuke]

I thought Obito was amping the Bijuu that fought KCM Naruto since KCM2 Naruto could smack them and yet Obito can fight him just fine?

There's no proof hes amping them and obito scales way above the edo jinchuuriki anyway

 

[Foliedeux]

Stamina argument doesn't help you. As long as he can use Kurama's chakra, he doesn't get tired. He showed no signal of being weaker because of the chakra. He was full when he fought Son Goku, and needed a boost in strenght to escape.

This bullshit makes characters clearly below Bijū level as Bijū level.

You realize he does get tired while using Kuramas chakra right? Stamina is needed to utilize Ninjutsu, what are you talking about? That's a basic concept outlined in Part 1. Also, no, you can focus your power on clones and waste said power, him using the chakra doesn't mean it is perpetually at full power. It is a pool of chakra that he uses, not just a state of being.

Bad argument.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Imagine calling my argument a "bad argument" while you defend the thread. I'll just wait for it to be closed.

 

[Wuke]

You realize he does get tired while using Kuramas chakra right? Stamina is needed to utilize Ninjutsu, what are you talking about? That's a basic concept outlined in Part 1. Also, no, you can focus your power on clones and waste said power, him using the chakra doesn't mean it is perpetually at full power. It is a pool of chakra that he uses, not just a state of being.

Bad argument.

People always think output is at 100% for some reason

 

[Foliedeux]

Imagine calling my argument a "bad argument" while you defend the thread. I'll just wait for it to be closed.

?

I guess making no argument is better than making a bad one, congrats on the improvement!

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My interpretation follows the narrative, yours contradicts it. So if you want to talk about narrative consistency, why don't you start there

explain to me how Six tailed naruto can be both simultaneously stronger than and weaker than Sage mode Naruto, explain to me why Kakazu gets one-shot by an incomplete FRS while the third raikage can easily tank a much stronger version. explain to me how Hidan can get destroyed by a few paper bombs while Bijuu's tank their own tailed beast bombs. explain to me why Shukaku can be tagged by part 1 naruto and struggle against Gamabunta while also being strong enough to damage 1 eyed Rinnegan madara and tag him with his sand. the same Madara that blitzed Sage Mode naruto who has faster reactions KCM.

 

[M3X_2.0]

?

I guess making no argument is better than making a bad one, congrats on the improvement!

Thanks!!

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

For one, Sasori is holding back in the fight. Chiyo is also very strong, having fought the likes of Hanzo and Tsunade. Sakura would've died instantly if Chiyo hadn't been controlling her, plus, Oro and Sasori capture the 5 tails iirc

you mean the same Sasori that was Orochimaru's rival that got demolished by four-tailed naruto?

 

[Wuke]

explain to me how Six tailed naruto can be both simultaneously stronger than and weaker than Sage mode Naruto, explain to me why Kakazu gets one-shot by an incomplete FRS while the third raikage can easily tank a much stronger version. explain to me how Hidan can get destroyed by a few paper bombs while Bijuu's tank their own tailed beast bombs. explain to me why Shukaku can be tagged by part 1 naruto and struggle against Gamabunta while also being strong enough to damage 1 eyed Rinnegan madara and tag him with his sand. the same Madara that blitzed Sage Mode naruto who has faster reactions KCM.

Where are you getting weaker and stronger from? The Rasenshuriken ignores durability. The Raikage is an edo, and we dont see what happens in between manga panels, he could have easily regenerated it, or his lightning cloak could have cellular durability. In fact, the third raikage is stated to have a naturally tough body, which can easily refer to cellular durability. Paper bombs are no joke, they could dismember obito and when concentrated even blow up hashiramas deity gates. That's not full power shukaku, it's stated. Also Gamabunta held down the nine tails. Shukakus attack against madara was assisted by gaara, not a contradiction. Did you try watching the series?

 

[Arkenis]

How does back scaling cause any problems with the scaling chain, elaborate. Also you realize that saying the Bijuu are stronger causes narrative problems correct? Why doesn't Obito, Zetsu, or anybody with a valid opinion on the matter ever say they are more powerful? Wouldn't that be crucial to his plan? Seems like a leap, and I demand serious proof for that serious claim. (Occams Razor)

We don't need power levels to interpret the series for our self. Cringe. Akatsuki stuff being off screen doesn't matter, when we already have enough information to make a case, such as Kakuzu was slow enough to get hit by Yugito but could beat her in a close range brawl that lasted multiple hours. Not Bijuu level though?

Non canon? You can't make these claims without evidence, why are these works non canon? Do you think the Databooks aren't canon? Because they are written and signed by Kishimoto himself literally in the books.

Pretty sure they generally exclude databook statements due to the "inconsistencies" with scaling.

 

[Wuke]

you mean the same Sasori that was Orochimaru's rival that got demolished by four-tailed naruto?

Wait? You mean the orochimaru whose body was rejecting him, had no arms which significantly weakened him, blitzed 4 tails naruto, and was playing around anyway??

 

[Wuke]

Pretty sure they generally exclude databook statements due to the "inconsistencies" with scaling.

The discussion rule only says when not supported by the manga/narrative, which there have been PLENTY of supporting arguments already made.

 

[Wuke]

you mean the same Sasori that was Orochimaru's rival that got demolished by four-tailed naruto?

Also Sasori wasn't his rival??? He literally just had a grudge against him, nothing to indicate rivalry. Try again

 

[Arkenis]

you mean the same Sasori that was Orochimaru's rival that got demolished by four-tailed naruto?

I don't think you should be calling them rivals at all, And also 4t naruto can literally just scale that high.

 

[Wuke]

I don't think you should be calling them rivals at all, And also 4t naruto can literally just scale that high.

Half Kurama stalemated 5 bijuu anyway, its fine for 4 tails naruto to be bijuu level, regardless of my other arguments

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Where are you getting weaker and stronger from? The Rasenshuriken ignores durability. The Raikage is an edo, and we dont see what happens in between manga panels, he could have easily regenerated it,

stop using your headcanon, the fact that they mention his durability contradicts your regeneration argument.

his lightning cloak could have cellular durability. In fact, the third raikage is stated to have a naturally tough body, which can easily refer to cellular durability

FRS Ignores Durability

Raikage has a naturally tough body

Pick one

Paper bombs are no joke

ahh yes the uber powerful paperbomb. why does the series make a big deal of Tailed beasts when your average Shinobi scrub can create tailed beast level power with a few paper bombs.

Also Gamabunta held down the nine tails

Using weight doesn't = AP

> That's not full power shukaku

find me the quote

Shukakus attack against madara was assisted by gaara, not a contradiction

Do you mean the same Gaara who is implied to = Shukaku ?
ah yes Shukaku the Tailed beast who gets tagged by part 1 Naruto, surely two of them is enough.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wait? You mean the orochimaru whose body was rejecting him, had no arms which significantly weakened him, blitzed 4 tails naruto, and was playing around anyway??

Blitzed 4 tails Naruto my ass.

also Jiraiya was heavily injured by four-tailed Naruto, who would be Orochimaru's peer without his sickness.

 

[Arkenis]

This sasori stuff shouldn't be this hard, He's stated to have beaten the third kaze, third kaze>rasa~gaara>shukaku. Stop tryna find weird ways to discredit Kishimoto's blatant narrative for Sasori being the strongest Sand Village ninja cuz you just don't want akatsuki scaling to jins. And dude in part one it's literally stated shukaku was being held back due to gaara still being awaking and shukaku not being able to draw out his true power. Gamabunta also talks about how shukaku is just too strong to continue doing battle with him after gaara actually goes to sleep. And Shukaku tagged madara while he was in mid air which is generally harder to move your whole body also the attack was a wide range one so it's gonna be easier to land a hit on.

explain to me how Six tailed naruto can be both simultaneously stronger than and weaker than Sage mode Naruto, explain to me why Kakazu gets one-shot by an incomplete FRS while the third raikage can easily tank a much stronger version. explain to me how Hidan can get destroyed by a few paper bombs while Bijuu's tank their own tailed beast bombs. explain to me why Shukaku can be tagged by part 1 naruto and struggle against Gamabunta while also being strong enough to damage 1 eyed Rinnegan madara and tag him with his sand. the same Madara that blitzed Sage Mode naruto who has faster reactions KCM.

 

[BlackeJan]

This is fun to watch lol

 

[Wuke]

stop using your headcanon, the fact that they mention his durability contradicts your regeneration argument.

his lightning cloak could have cellular durability. In fact, the third raikage is stated to have a naturally tough body, which can easily refer to cellular durability


"S


Pick one



ahh yes the uber powerful paperbomb. why does the series make a big deal of Tailed beasts when your average Shinobi scrub can create tailed beast level power with a few paper bombs.



Using weight doesn't = AP

> That's not full power shukaku

find me the quote



Do you mean the same Gaara who is implied to = Shukaku ?
ah yes Shukaku the Tailed beast who gets tagged by part 1 Naruto, surely two of them is enough.

The Rasenshuriken ignores conventional durability. BY ATTACKING THE CELLS. If the Raikage has greater cellular durability, not an antifeat. Plus, I gave another argument outside of that why it doesnt work, that wasnt addressed. Because bijuus can be weaponized within shinobi, and also, paperbombs could be hard to make, we dont know! "Shukakus true strength is surpressed" Chapter 135

 

[Wuke]

Blitzed 4 tails Naruto my ass.

also Jiraiya was heavily injured by four-tailed Naruto, who would be Orochimaru's peer without his sickness.

I can tell you when he blitzed him. Also it's implied only SM Jiraiya was relative to Oro

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

This sasori stuff shouldn't be this hard, He's stated to have beaten the third kaze, third kaze>rasa~gaara>shukaku. Stop tryna find weird ways to discredit Kishimoto's blatant narrative for Sasori being the strongest Sand Village ninja cuz you just don't want akatsuki scaling to jins.

So would you argue that Sakura is Bijuu level when her punch dislocated Sasori's main body.

 

[KingTempest]

Me and Shadow butt heads a lot.

I agree 1000000000% with what Shadow says here though.