Naruto Revisions: The Last (Hopefully...)

[Kepekley23]

Continued from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1293484

A summary of the necessary changes:

• 8-A scaling for several characters (SuperSaiyanJulian helped out immensely by making a list of which ones would scale)

• The 9 Bijuu's scaling (7-A physically, High 7-A with Bijuudama)

• High 6-A scaling for Second and Third Stage Juubi, Juubito, Naruto and Sasuke, via DodoNova2's calculation.

• Rinnegan Obito should be 7-C physically via fighting Kakashi and 7-B+ with his best attacks since he could hurt KCM Naruto.

• Physically scale Madara and Hashirama to 7-C via scaling from Obito.

Credits to Dark649 for the list above.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Well Madara was able to beat down an entire armada of Shinobi who should be at least be comparable to Itta and his Katon matched Obito's which means he should be at least comparable to Obito physically. And Hashirama is stronger than him.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I will repost the list once more on this thread:

So here are all of the characters(if not most) who would need to be upgraded to Multi-City Block level due to the Sound Four:

Naruto Uzumaki (Teenager)

Sasuke Uchiha

Hatake Kakashi

Temari

Kankuro

Kimimaro

Butterfly Choji

Yamato

Base Pai

Zabuza Momochi

Itachi Uchiha

Shisui Uchiha

Jirobo

Might Guy

Kisame Hoshigaki

Sasori

Sai Yamanaka

Sakura Haruno

Kabuto Yakushi

Anko Mitarashi

Asuma Sarutobi

Shino Aburame

These are all if not most. If some of them shouldn't be upgraded or if some of them are left please let me know.

 

[Promestein]

This all seems fine to me. Nice work.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

SM Hashirama should scale to BSM Naruto at least.

 

[Theglassman12]

Can someone tell my why Zabuza should scale to the sound four? He only fought Kakashi throughout the first arc iirc, and the sound four has fought team 7 and their friends without their teachers, who have most likely gotten stronger thanks to the chuunin exams.

 

[Kepekley23]

Sage Mode Hashirama is Low 6-B via feats, that's consistent with everything shown on-screen.

 

[Joseph619]

Agrre with Kepekley. No unnecessary scaling without feats or explicit statement with power comparison (for example, Sakura surpassing Tsunade). Simple fighting side by side is not enough, all shonen have friends fighting together regardless of tier difference

 

[Kepekley23]

@Theglassman12

The high jonin-level fighters from Part 1 should scale above the S4. Plus, Kabuto is above the Sound Four and he is stated to be comparable to Kakashi (who hasn't grown stronger since then), so:

Kakashi ~ Kabuto ~ Zabuza > S4 (With the possible exception of Kimimaro)

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, that makes sense.

 

[Joseph619]

Yeah the relevant major chracters should all be stronger than sound 4. I mean they got beaten by preteen K11 after all

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Kepekley

Base Hashirama has on screen feats of being comparable to 100% Kurama. He's even stated of having chakra levels comparable to 100% Kurama. It makes no sense for a character with half his Chakra Level (BM Naruto) to be vastly superior to him with the usage of SM when SM Hashirama would have to absorb twice the amount of Nature Energy just to enter SM.

Ok, Hashirama has a Low 6-B feat. Clearly via scaling its not his max. Btw, can you link me to said calc.

'Are we seriously going to ignore BASE Hashirama being comparable to 100% Kurama?

 

[Kepekley23]

Susanoo-Kurama's Bijuudama is Low 6-B. SM Hashirama would scale to this.

Him being 6-B messes up the scaling. Rinnegan-Madara's Tengai Shinsei is Low 6-B. which is consistent.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

This picture shows Madara's armoured Susanoo tanking a TB. So Madara's complete Perfect Susano is at least High 7A. Also Sasuke and Naruto didn't surpass Madara (EMS) and Hashi before the Sage power up. Kakashi stated that Naruto surpassed Hashi only after he saw Six Paths Sage Mode.

Juubito was weakened after he released the Shinjuu and also lost because he lost the will to fight...

 

[Kepekley23]

'Are we seriously going to ignore BASE Hashirama being comparable to 100% Kurama?

You can't seriously be arguing this.

 

[Joseph619]

Chakra level does not determine your tier. Fourth Raikage has been repetedly been said to have Bijuu level chakra, he's not 7-A for that.

I still can't believe people are using chakra level for tier argument.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Chakra level does not determine your tier. Fourth Raikage has been repetedly been said to have Bijuu level chakra, he's not 7-A for that.

@Joseph

Hashirama has comparable chakra level to 100% Kurama.

• Means both have the same potential.

• Hashirama states BM Naruto has almost as much chakra as he does when he links with Minato's kyuubi

• Hashirama has fought Kurama and EMS Madara simultaneously for x amount of time and ******* catches a BD and throws it back at Them and tanks the blast with his wood.

So no, i'm not just basing it off of Chakra level (Which yes, does actually matter when SM gets involved).

Base Hashirama goes Sage Mode and low diffs 100% Kurama and continues to fight Madara all without having the intent to kill until he realizes he can't talk with Madara.

So yes, feats, statements and implications prove Base Hashirama ~ Kurama.

Tell me what sense does it make for someone with half his chakra levels to be stronger in SM than he is with SM?You can't because it makes no sense. Hashirama would have to have absorbed twice the Nature Energy to enter SM that BSM Naruto would have because he has twice the chakra.

 

[Joseph619]

Base Hashirama is not equal to 100% Kurama. Are you really serious?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Kepekley

You keep using that Low-6-B feat as an excuse:

• SM Hashirama Destroyed PS Susanoo with his 1000 hand Buddha.

• Treated Kurama like a toy and casually put him to sleep

• Himself nor his Buddah Suffered any damade from the "Blast" of Several dozen 100% Kurama level biju bombs.

And he did all this without the intent to kill. Nowhere does this feat Scream it's his maximum. So why are you pushing it as it is?

We have enough evidence to suggest Base Hashirama > BM Naruto. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to put 2 and 2 together to know via scaling, SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto. Jesus christ, his SM Key should read:

"At least Low-6-B (Feat), Likely High 6-A (Should be twice as strong as BSM Naruto)"

 

[Joseph619]

Are we conveniently forgetting that Mokuton can suppress Biju chakra? That's the primary reason Yamato was assigned to take care of Naruto

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Base Hashirama is not equal to 100% Kurama. Are you really serious?

And this statement of yours is based on what exactly?

Mine is based on:

• Manga facts: Base Hashirama fought both 100% Kyuubi and EMS Madara for a period of time evenly before using SM.

• Manga shows Kurama using Biju Dama Against him and it does jack shit. 100% Kurama that is.

• SM Hashirama quickly and easily dispatches of 100% Kurama and his buddah suffered 0 damage from Kurama's many BD exploading.

• Hashirama states Naruto with Minato's Kyuubi linked to him and his has almost as much chakra as he does which is futher implication that Hashirama has the sane potential as 100% Kyuubi.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

what's with Naruto being Large Mountain, Shouldn't it be small island?

 

[Kepekley23]

@TenshinG

Large Mountain and Small Island are the same thing here.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Are we conveniently forgetting that Mokuton can suppress Biju chakra? That's the primary reason Yamato was assigned to take care of Naruto

Mokuton isn't going to suppress a Biju Bomb Explosion. And you're conveniently forgetting how SM Works. And even if you tried going that route to discredit the proof, EMS Madara is also on par with 100% Kurama via feats. Mokuton can't suppress Uchiha chakra.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Also Bruh. . . someone needs to calc this. I already know the Larva Juubi is Country, I'm talking about Kurama and Gyuki's full powered Bijuu-dama combinatio

 

[Joseph619]

@TFO: Mokuton has specific property of restraining bujuu chakra. Yamato was assigned for this very reason so that Naruto didn't go berserk. Chakra absorption is a key power of Hashirama, which is a hax. That doesn't mean base Hashirama is stronger than 100% Kurama.

Here's Hashirama basically putting Kurama to sleep with a mere touch. He was famous for being bijuu suppressor. That doesn't mean base Hashirama is stronger than 100% Kurama. Try to see the difference between hax and AP

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Joseph

That's SM Hashirama btw and again, you're ignoring EMS Madara scaling to 100% Kurama and that Base Hashirama has comparable chakra levels meaning comparable potential.

 

[Joseph619]

@Joseph
That's SM Hashirama btw and again, you're ignoring EMS Madara scaling to 100% Kurama and that Base Hashirama has comparable chakra levels meaning comparable potential.

How many times do I have to repeat that? Chakra levels do not equate to attack potency. You're going in circles now.

SM Hashirama or Base doesn't matter, it's mokuton which suppresses the biju. All moktuon suppress biju chakra, even Yamato's

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Look, I'm not going to argue it any more. Bottomline is, i disagree with BSM being vastly superior to SM Hasgirama. It makes no sense to me and the feats say otherwise. If everyone else agree's with you guys, whatever. I made my case, we can move on. I'll just be beating a dead horse continuing to argue.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Also Dariel has a calc whereSage Mode Juugo's lotus cannon has a higher yield.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogariel_Senju/Jugo%27s_Chakra_Blast_Calculatio

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Gwyn did a re calc

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gwynbleiddd/Naruto_calc_-_Jugo's_blast

 

[Joseph619]

There's a reason we're actually discussing everything now. Context is very important in Naruto, it's not like Dragon Ball where everything is A > B > C. That's why it needs much more indepth analysis. Simply saying yeah feats but not looking at context can be catastrophic and inaccurate stats.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Joseph
That's SM Hashirama btw and again, you're ignoring EMS Madara scaling to 100% Kurama and that Base Hashirama has comparable chakra levels meaning comparable potential.

How many times do I have to repeat that? Chakra levels do not equate to attack potency. You're going in circles now.
SM Hashirama or Base doesn't matter, it's mokuton which suppresses the biju. All moktuon suppress biju chakra, even Yamato's

Ninja...did I ******* say AP? NO.

And again, Mokuton hasn't shown being able to surpress Explosions. Nor does ots properties give it special "durability" over Biju attacks. That's your head canon. 100% Kurama doesn't have the AP to harm even Base Hashirama. And like I said, you can't say the same for Mokuton vs. Susanoo.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

There's a reason we're actually discussing everything now. Context is very important in Naruto, it's not like Dragon Ball where everything is A > B > C. That's why it needs much more indepth analysis. Simply saying yeah feats but not looking at context can be catastrophic and inaccurate stats.

Ironic given you're ignoring Context to justify Hashirama not scaling or being comparable...

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Gwyn did a re calc
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gwynbleiddd/Naruto_calc_-_Jugo's_blast

Dariel's calc seem's more likely given that A dodges instead of taking it

 

[Omimi]

copy-past @TheFinalOrder

Hashirama states that Naruto has almost as much Chakra as he does


=>wrong Hashirama never said that naruto+kurama chakra reserves = his chakra reserves

he said the amount of chakra naruto shared with all ninja was = his chakra reserves

and we all know that wasnt even half of yin kurama reserves that yang kurama borrowed from yin kurama

his was during the time Naruto pooled his Chakra with Minato's and the other Kyuubi this implying Base Hashirama is >= 100% Kyuubi in chakra quantity.

=>naruto and kurama was exhausted so yang kurama had to borrowed chakra chakra from yin kurama+minato

so i dont know why r u saying that yang kurama chakra was still at 100%


again hashirama said the amount of chakra naruto shared with all ninja was = his chakra reserves

AND am sure that amount of chakra naruto shared with all ninja was not even 50% of yang kurama or yin kurama full reserves let alone 100% Kyuubi

 

[Omimi]

Base Hashirama goes Sage Mode and low diffs 100% Kurama and continues to fight Madara all without having the intent to kill until he realizes he can't talk with Madara.
1.jubito 1shot Hashirama (in manga)

2.Hashirama said he is no match for jubito (in manga)

3. fail to restrain jubito with his seal (in manga)

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Base Hashirama goes Sage Mode and low diffs 100% Kurama and continues to fight Madara all without having the intent to kill until he realizes he can't talk with Madara.

1.jubito 1shot Hashirama (in manga)

2.Hashirama said he is no match for jubito (in manga)

3. fail to restrain jubito with his seal (in manga)

And...never said anything about Juubito. And my apologies, i forgot to address you.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

@omini don't mean to intrude BUT that was an edo, base hashirama who was also holding back. like, no matter yall say, edo<<< alive forms. its surprising that juubito escaped from hashi's godly gates, but when madara came back to life, he did the same. shouldn't alive hashi also scale to him then, making him even stronger than imcomplete juubito? oh, and since base hashi=ems madara=100 kurama, then wouldn't sm hashi be about 2+ times stronger than his base?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Omimi

1.)Hashirama never said the amount of Chakra Naruro shared with the Alliance was equal to his own. He said and I Quote (Have the Volume):

"I can't believe he shared his chakra with every other shinobi! He's got almost as much chakra as I!"

Ref. Chapter 644

2.)Naruto was fighting in KCM since Chapter 628 when he exited BM before Juubi did tenpenchii which gives Kurama plenty of time to have been building up Chakra.

• Chapter 629 Naruto stayed in base until chapter 632.

• In 633, Naruto confirms to Sai that Kurama hasn't yet finished recharging his chakra which confirms that from tge time Naruto exited BM, Kurama's been building up chakra.

• 633 - 642, Naruto fights in KCM before attempting to go BM when tge form fails and Kurama advises Naruto to fight in Base for awhile if he wants to go Perfect BM.

Exact Statement:

"If you want to enter perfect biju mode as soon as possible, you'll have to fight in Normal Mode for while!"

• 642 - 643 Naruto enters SM. It's at this point Obito was about to blow them all to hell. Kurama asked his other half for Chakra in 643 and Naruto enters BM at the end of 643.

• 644 Kishi shows us Naruto/Minato and Both Kyuubi's Linking up. In 644, Kishi straight out says to us through Choji that tge cloaks Naruto handed everyone are Bigger and Stronger than before (Because both Kyuubi are linked, duh)

^this would not be the case if Kurama was exhausted of his chakra and Naruto had to borrow the other Kyuubi's. The cloaks would be the same size as originally. And in 644, Hashirama makes the statement.

Sensing Naruto's chakra while linked to the other Kyuubi, Hashirama states that he Almost had his level of chakra.