Naruto Revisions: The Last (Hopefully...)

[TheFinalOrder]

@omini don't mean to intrude BUT that was an edo, base hashirama who was also holding back. like, no matter yall say, edo<<< alive forms. its surprising that juubito escaped from hashi's godly gates, but when madara came back to life, he did the same. shouldn't alive hashi also scale to him then, making him even stronger than imcomplete juubito? oh, and since base hashi=ems madara=100 kurama, then wouldn't sm hashi be about 2+ times stronger than his base?

@Bolded:

I said this, lol, they're ignoring it.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Either way the facts are:

• Base Hashirama Stalemated EMS Madara and 100% Kyuubi while not having killing intent.

• Through Statements, Feats, Context, implications, Base Hashi ~ EMS Mads ~ 100% Kurama.

• BM Naruto only has the power of 50% Kurama.

At this point, Saying BSM Naruto >>>>>>>> SM Hashirama is tantamount to saying BM Naruto with 50% Kurama is >>>>>>> Base Hashi/EMS Madara.

 

[Amexim]

I agree with TFO.

While Chakra AMOUNT doesn't mean AP, the fact still remains that Hashi was still fighting against Majestic Cloak Kurama and Madara without trying to put Kurama down using hax. The scans he posted demonstrate that he can put Kurama to sleep using hax, but we also know that he had to fight physically up to that point. Him catching a Biju bomb in the hands of his Golem and further conflict still make that clear. Can't we just scale Juubito up to Hashi and then give him a "likely higher"?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Also, I want to apologize to both Kepekley and Joseph. I feel like I was coming off a bit hostile there, but that wasn't my intention. Regardless of what may be decided, I appreciate both of your contrabutions as with everyone else.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

This picture shows Madara's armoured Susanoo tanking a TB. So Madara's complete Perfect Susano is at least High 7A. Also Sasuke and Naruto didn't surpass Madara (EMS) and Hashi before the Sage power up. Kakashi stated that Naruto surpassed Hashi only after he saw Six Paths Sage Mode.
Juubito was weakened after he released the Shinjuu and also lost because he lost the will to fight...

It seems my post was forgottten. Also I will say it again. Juubito was weakened and Naruto had the help of the whole Shinobi Alliance. SM and Bijuu chakra helped Naruto against Juubito and also the others. The Shinjuu Tree absorbed his chakra like nothing and had to be saved Saratobi. No way BSM Narusto is above SM Hashirama, Edo/EMS Madara. Hashirama said that his own power is not enough for Juubito. Naruto had everybody's help and the Bijuu chakra's to put Juubito

Kakashi said that Naruto surpassed him only after the Sage power up! Also, don't forget that Madara in his fight with Hashi had to spend a lot of chakra to control Kurama and have Susanoo. EMS Madara shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I can agree with Base Hashirama and Madara's Perfect Susanoo becoming High 7-A. Scaling the latter's Perfect Susanoo from Sasuke's Complete Susanoo is nothing bad, really. TFO does make sense, but I'd have to read the thread again since I'm in a rush.

No, Juubito shouldn't be scaled down to Hashirama. That'd just result in an unnecessary downgrade.

If anything, the questionable thing is about the stuff with BSM Naruto, Hashirama and others scaling to Juubito. Apologies if this was addressed before, I don't have time to look through the old thread now, but:

- Sage Naruto's Rasengan damaged Juubito. Even if the damage was not so big, a 7-C character doing anything to a High 6-A character is a no-no. If it was with Rasenshuriken, it'd be better...probably. And wasn't Toad Kumite also hinted to be capable of working? Not sure.

- An unstable Juubito casually destroyed the Four Red Yang Formation, which had the combined power of Sage Hashirama and the rest of the Hokage, and easily did the same to Myoujinmon, with Hashirama saying afterwards that he was no match for Obito. And yet, a character that he's twice as strong as could destroy a stabilized Juubito's chakra arms and TSB shield. That's obviously contradictory and inconsistent. By that logic, Sage Hashirama would be able to do the same to a stabilized Juubito, despite him being insignificant to an unstable Obito.

Another contradictory occurrence during the war is Madara being able to hold back Sage Hashirama, when he needed Majestic Attire to combat him in his prime...

- BSM Naruto's Big Ball Rasengan Barrage could destroy the TSB shield, when four Juubidama couldn't...what?

- What that guy said above about Obito losing his will to fight.

There's also the fact that the fight is commonly regarded as PIS. There must be a reason why the characters were never upgraded to Country level scaling to Obito, and I've only seen it brought up like...twice?

Well, I don't agree with scaling anyone to Juubito. Should we just vote and go with the majority or something?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Another contradictory occurrence during the war is Madara being able to hold back Sage Hashirama, when he needed Majestic Attire to combat him in his prime...

I agree with incosistensies in Juubito battle. Its because of PIS, to show that Sage power is effective against him etc...

Edo Madara and Edo Hashi are Edos and not at full power. Edo Madara at life would be Rinnegan Madara who would be >> EMS Madara and stronger than SM Hashi. Also SM Mokujin appears to be = with Perfect Susanoo. Madara needed majestic attire for Hashi Ultimate attack. Perfect Susanoo is not weak. Also, Majestic attire is Perfect Susanoo covering Kurama. Its not like Madara's Susanoo powered up when covered Kurama but Madara could use both of their offence so stronger attack BUT the defence of the Susanoo is Madara's feat alone. His Susanoo remained half even after Hashi's strongets attack.

 

[Joseph619]

I too agree not scaling anybody to Juubito. He basically stomped everyone and the few moment Naruto hurt him was extreme PIS, one of them literally the infamous talk no jutsu.

 

[Omimi]

It seems my post was forgottten. Also I will say it again. Juubito was weakened and Naruto had the help of the whole Shinobi Alliance. SM and Bijuu chakra helped Naruto against Juubito

1.Juubito was never weakened 2.it was naruto who was protecting(via chakra clock) whole Shinobi Alliance against Juubito and jubi

 

[Omimi]

@Burning Full Fingers

BSM naruto also had other 6 biju chakra buff which everyone forgot

and sm hashirama was never stronger then BSM naruto

naruto vs jubi/jubito is consistent so calling his all feats PIS/Outlier is wrong (more then 50 chapter of feat cant be PIS/Outlier)

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

@Burning Full Fingers
BSM naruto also had other 6 biju chakra

and sm hashirama was never stronger then BSM naruto

The other 6 Bijuu were so small that didn't matter. The chakra's were used so they connect with the chakra of the Bijuu's inside the Juubi. The situation was not the same like Six Paths Naruto.

Juubito released the Shinjuu which wanted Bijuu chakra to activate. Also EMS Sasuke begun to point Juubito and was not even at EMS Madara's level. So no. Also Kakashi said that Naruto surpassed Hashi after the Sage power up. SM Hashi > BSM Naruto. Also nobody said that BSM Naruto was stronger than Hashirama in the Juubito fight. The Kages were impressed that Juubito was stronger than Hashi not Naruto.

 

[SunGodAttun]

I wanted to have your opinion on this:

Kisame [could break out of chakra enhance wood] [could restrain KCN4 Naruto ]

[also could tank a headbut from base Bee] [could overpower] [raikage] ,

[could push back] [Naruto]

 

[Dzhindzholia]

TheFinalOrder makes sence,i also support his opinion.I have read the whole Naruto manga and watched almost every episode(missed some fillers) and i can not accept BSM Naruto being stronger than Hashi or Madara,it contradicts everything that was said and shown in the manga(Anime).

About Juubito.Naruto was able to hurt him only because of senjutsu,no one should scale to Juubito.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

about Chakra not =Ap... if you really look at it, there are many cases that show that more chakra does actually mean higher AP, and there are cases of it not being the case, chalk that up to inconsistent writing, so id say we should just analyze these things from a case to case basis.

 

[Rocker1189]

about Chakra not =Ap... if you really look at it, there are many cases that show that more chakra does actually mean higher AP, and there are cases of it not being the case, chalk that up to inconsistent writing, so id say we should just analyze these things from a case to case basis.

I would say it depends on the skillset of said Character. Someone like Shikamaru can not have Chakra equal to his AP, because he uses Shadow binding not a Bijuu bimb for example. His binding will be stronger but he would not do any more dmg than usual. So yeah bascially I agree with you.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

How did this become about Them scaling to Juubito? Nobody scales to Juubito. Juubito is quite clearly > Hashirama and BSM Naruto and CMS Sasuke.

SM Naruto hurting Juubito isn't an inconsistentcy. Senhutsu is their weakness and it allows others to actually hurt them without being anywhere near their level, I thought this was clear that It's like Kryptonite.

As for Juubito breaking the barrier and seal, that means nothing towards the scaling. It proves why He's Superior to Hashirama. Naruto destroying the chakra arms isn't in consistent with them destroying the barrier, a Jutsu strength depends on how much Chakra you put into it. Examples:

• Chibaku Tensei

• Rasengan

Etc. The barrier isn't indicative of Hashirama's max, and neither is the TSB or His Chakra arms for Juubito.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

@TheFinalOrder Agreed.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Btw, Base Hashirama and EMS Madara would scale to Low 6-B, not High 7-A for tanking 100% Kurama's BD (Going by the calc Kepekley linked).

http://topstrongest.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Adam_of_darkness/Naruto-_Kurama%27s_Bijuudama

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Oh, that was Prime Kurama. I thought it was Majestic Attire for some reason. If the calc is fine, I agree with it. OBD have them at Low 6-B to 6-B as well, though I don't know the reason.

And I'm fed up of this thing with Sage Hashirama and BSM Naruto. Can we just do it like this:

Hashirama: At least Small Country level (Can fight against Madara and Kurama, the latter of whom could do [link calc here this] with an uncharged Bijuudama) | At least Country level, likely far higher (Considerably stronger than base. Could restrain and seal Second Form Juubi's movements)

Key: Base | Sage Mode

Then BSM Naruto could be Small Country level+ for being twice as weak as Sage Hashirama, and we could mention his feats against Juubito as a justification for 'likely far higher'. And then the others scale accordingly.

If this isn't okay, I leave it to you guys. I won't discuss here again about any issue pertaining to these specific forms of these guys.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I suppose Burning makes sense considering Juubito might be upgraded to High 6-A.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I suppose Burning makes sense considering Juubito might be upgraded to High 6-A.

Juubito should be upgraded. It doesn't even make sense to have Toneri at that level and Juubito who has the Juubi (even if it is not at full power) not.

Also I agree with Burning but also I agree with TheFinalOrder so as to solve the BSM Naruto/Hashirma/EMS Madara problem.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree with BFF's suggestion

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Now, the only problem is do we scale Juubi's Charged BD from Tenpenchii or have them separate??

I.E.

• 2nd stage Juubi = High 6-A via Whether Manipulation

• 3rd stage juubi = Low 6-B with Biju Dama?

I don't think so as in chapter 628, Kurama stated Juubi was charging it's chakra which culminated in Tenpenchii and going to 3rd stage.

It's not a Situation as with Kaguya and ETSB. I believe the stats should be:

2nd Form Juubi: High 6-A (Tenpenchii Calc) | High 6-A, Possibly Higher (Stronger than it's 2nd form).

Hashirama: Low 6-B, Possibly Higher (Fought Madara and Prime Kyuubi in based, Tanked Prime Kyuubi's Biju Dama) | High 6-A, Possibly Higher (Considerably stronger than base, could restrain 3rd form Juubi)

Naruto: At Least 6-C (BM is 50% of Prime Kyuubi who is Low 6-B, Possibly Higher) | High 6-A (Destroyed Juubito's chakra arms which are stronger than 3rd form Juubi's Biju Bomb which was blocked by the Hokage's Barrier and Consistently Damaged Juubito's TSB.)

Juubito: At Least High 6-A (Chakra Arms Destroyed Hokage's Barrier, Casually broke SM Hashirama's Seal that Restrained Juubi and Hashirama admits inferiority to him.) | At Least High 6-A (Stronger than before, Dominated BSM Naruto and Curse Mark Susanoo Sasuke simultaneously)

 

[Dark649]

No possibly and at least for them. Hashirama restraining does't mean he scales.

 

[Kepekley23]

Low 6-B Base Hashirama? Literally what? He is consistently 7-A to High 7-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

Prime Kurama isn't Low 6-B either. That's Susano-Kurama.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Back to scaling "almost" how we use to...ƒÿò Not gonna bother tho as this needs to get done.

 

[Kepekley23]

Correct me if I'm misremembering, but I'm almost certain the Low 6-B feat is for Susano Kurama, not Prime Kurama.

 

[Dark649]

The Low 6-B calc is here.

 

[Kepekley23]

After a quick check, the Low 6-B calc is for a Susano-Kurama feat. Not just Kurama.

Base Hashirama: 7-A to High 7-A (insert reasoning), Low 6-B to High 6-A with Sage Mode

 

[Galiel_Elisaie]

I never understood Naruto scaling here.Even if TT Obito is changed to High 6-A it's still a huge downplay.TT Obito, TT Madara, base Madara, Hashirama, Kurama, all of them should be relative to Juubi and around the same tier.Tailed Beasts after merging together are not multiplying, Ten-Tails is simply 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9.So Ten-Tails power is equal to that of all tailed beasts combined which it is, except from half Kurama but I hope you get my point.So seeing how base Madara and Hashirama were more powerful than Kurama I'd say that they are relative to the Ten-Tails, especially considering the fact that each of them is more powerful than strongest part of Ten-Tails - Kurama(Nine Tails).Or maybe I am wrong, then I beg you to explain it to me.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So would anyone scale to hashirama in sage mode?

 

[Kepekley23]

Not sure.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

would Minato be High 6-A aswell...

 

[Dark649]

No, Minato would have been only if he got all the power of Kurama, which did not happened.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

ahhh i see

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Kepekley

Majestic-Attire Kyuubi is not a fusion of their powers. It's simply Armor, so The Biju Bombs it fires are still all Prime Kyuubi. It's explosion has nothing to do with Madara. Madara only stuck a PS Sword in it so Hashi couldn't catch it, he even taunts him on it in the flash back.

So yes, Prime Kyuubi is Low 6-B.

 

[Dark649]

No, it's Perfect Susanoo + Kyuubi = Low 6-B Majestic-Attire Kyuubi.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

No, it's Perfect Susanoo + Kyuubi = Low 6-B Majestic-Attire Kyuubi.

What TFO says makes sense. Madara's sword gives cutting power to Kyuubi's Bijuu Dama.

In Naruto's and Sasuke's case the power is combined since they share the chakra. In Madara's case this doesn't happen. He forcefully makes Kyuubi to attack but that doesn't mean they share the same chakra source.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

No, it's Perfect Susanoo + Kyuubi = Low 6-B Majestic-Attire Kyuubi.

Again, PS + Kyuubi =/= PS power fused with Kyuubi. That's Biju Susanoo and The Susanoo Kyuubi fusion from Vs Momoshiki.

The low 6-B calc is on Prime Kyuubi's BD like I said. PS nor Madara has anything to do with it being at that level. How is this hard to understand?