Naruto Low 5-B Upscale CRT

[KingTempest]

UchihaSlayer96 said:
Additionally, SPSM Naruto from Part II fought Kaguya (to an extent), who's much superior to Toneri. Toneri is at best comparable to Hamura, who's weaker than Hagoromo, who's in turn weaker than Kaguya. It's really simple and widely accepted, so please let's not unnecessarily overcomplicate such a simple thing.

@OneBleachHurricane there is not a single reasoning on why Kaguya's superior to Toneri except "he should be comparable to her".
Hamura's comparable to Hagoromo who defeated Kaguya and sealed her.
Toneri has his power and the power of thousands of other Otsutsuki's sitting in his eye sockets, including Hamura.

Widely accepted ≠ Correct. We have a fallacy page for a reason, appeal to popularity is literally what these ratings are being based on.
All he said was "the fandom agrees with this, so let's leave it". The wiki is for accurate ratings, not fanmade ones.

Spoiler

SPSM Naruto sent her flying with punches and scales to Sasuke who made her bleed with regular Susanoo slashes

Baseless

What makes him weaker than Hamura?

AP wise? Baseless

All I'm hearing is "stronger". Kaguya was "stronger" than Naruto and Sasuke, but they could make her bleed and harm her.

We are talking about Attack Potency. Stop using "stronger" justifications, especially when the justification is a scaling chain full of people we've never seen fight.

Either find a statement or a feat that shows that Kaguya > Toneri ATTACK POTENCY WISE, not technique wise (switch dimensions, bones that make people crumble, truthseeking orbs with a shit ton of hax) and so on.

Enough with the headcanon and the "we already agreed" i don't care if you already agreed. This is flawed scaling, and using it because a lot of people agree is worst than an "Agree FRA" train.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I'm sorry but if I'm sent flying, that means I didn't tank it.

If you mean having no leverage and resistance to a force being applied on to you because you're flying/levitating, off guard, rushing in, etc.

Oh really?

Then Kaguya was durable enough to be relatively unharmed by the cutting effect of the multiple Rasenshuriken other than bruises and torn clothing.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

In all honesty, I always believed that he used SPSM against Toneri, and the BSM was a design error.

The visuals and novelization of the Last has him sporting Kyuubi chakra mode (KCM).Bijuu mode always came with his cloak flying out with the black inner shirt didn't it?

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Kaguya scales to Isshiki for putting him on the verge of death in the past.

This is like scaling a laser to base or SSJB Goku or scaling black zetsu to madara. Context matters in these type of cases

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Toneri being the strongest of the Ootsuki is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life...

Imma leave now, HST CRT's just annoy the hell out of me nowadays

 

[KingTempest]

Toneri being the strongest of the Ootsuki is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life...

We currently have BSM Naruto and CM Susanoo Sasuke scaling to the same AP as Night Guy.

There's more to strength than AP.

I never said he's the strongest of the Otsutsuki's, I said he has more AP than Kaguya.

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t think using the current, very awful profiles is a good idea if you’re trying to prove a point.

Also technically they’re not the same AP, since Night Guy scales to Juubidara, who scales above Juubito, who NaruSasu scale to.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"I never said he's the strongest of the Otsutsuki's, I said he has more AP than Kaguya."

Which means you believe Toneri is stronger than them... The dude who got one-shot by a non full power Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto...

I mean does no one else have a problem with that logic?

 

[Jvando]

We currently have BSM Naruto and CM Susanoo Sasuke scaling to the same AP as Night Guy.

There's more to strength than AP.

I never said he's the strongest of the Otsutsuki's, I said he has more AP than Kaguya.

And basically 90% of the people here disagree with you on that. There’s literally nothing to suggest his AP is greater than you just saying it is.

1) Toneri’s skill in manipulating TSBs is pointless in indicating his power. Madara had just as great TSB manipulation when he first got it but Kaguya was still indicated to be superior to him.

2) Toneri’s tenseigan also including Hamura’s byakugan literally means nothing since that’s literally a single organ from Hamura. Just because Hamura’s was 5-C, it doesn’t mean Toneri getting his and thousands more byakugan suddenly catapults him > than him or Kaguya

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I don’t think using the current, very awful profiles is a good idea if you’re trying to prove a point.

Also technically they’re not the same AP, since Night Guy scales to Juubidara, who scales above Juubito, who NaruSasu scale to.

Technically, for whatever Tier they may become:

Night Guy would scale above Juubidara due to being physically stronger

Juubidara scales above Juubito for having better Chakra Control and having more Chakra

NaruSasu somewhat scale to Juubito individually

 

[KingTempest]

And basically 90% of the people here disagree with you on that. There’s literally nothing to suggest his AP is greater than you just saying it is.

The whole world can disagree. I'm not saying it's greater than anyone thinks it is, I'm just saying that Kaguya doesn't scale to it.

1) Toneri’s skill in manipulating TSBs is pointless in indicating his power. Madara had just as great TSB manipulation when he first got it but Kaguya was still indicated to be superior to him.

Toneri transmutated TSBs into cages, turned them into orbs that could go through the moon (while Madara's orbs had a 70 meter range, unless we say 70 meter moon diameter), created tornadoes out of them and could maneuver and precisely control dozens of them while Madara has 2 forms for only 9, throwing ball that Lee could outrun and a rod.

2) Toneri’s tenseigan also including Hamura’s byakugan literally means nothing since that’s literally a single organ from Hamura. Just because Hamura’s was 5-C, it doesn’t mean Toneri getting his and thousands more byakugan suddenly catapults him > than him or Kaguya

A single organ was strong enough with god knows how many other ones to do something stated on Hamura's profile.

The Tenseigan is said to possess enough power to revive a destroyed planet

And Toneri had eyes so strong that he didn't even need the Tenseigan, which consists of Hamura's eyes, which can do these feats.

Which means you believe Toneri is stronger than them... The dude who got one-shot by a non full power Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto...

I mean does no one else have a problem with that logic?

So we're just gonna dodge the fact that Naruto, who was fighting this dude for a good amount of time and not hurting him at all, focuses a bunch of chakra into his arm and plows through his attack then punches him, CLEARLY AN AMP, and this is a future Naruto who clearly has higher AP and a different skillset which I sent above, and you still want to say it as if it's a casual Naruto?

What's the point of the fight scene if Naruto could casually one shot him the whole time? Obviously not a regular naruto.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Toneri transmutated TSBs into cages, turned them into orbs that could go through the moon (while Madara's orbs had a 70 meter range, unless we say 70 meter moon diameter), created tornadoes out of them and could maneuver and precisely control dozens of them while Madara has 2 forms for only 9, throwing ball that Lee could outrun and a rod.

Regular TSO (Different shapes, but retains same properties such, as turning it into a sword, staff, cocoon, shield) ≠ Transmuted TSO (Different properties such as turning it into a different matter, turning it into energy projectiles/sword, turning it into an elemental attack)

The 70-meter range was in reference to its non-transmuted and shape changed form or its default form which is an orb.

Mind you, Naruto did a similar thing to what Toneri did by turning his TSOs into Rasenshurikens or TBBs with Wind Chakra

 

[KingTempest]

Regular TSO (Different shapes, but retains same properties such, as turning it into a sword, staff, cocoon, shield) ≠ Transmuted TSO (Different properties such as turning it into a different matter, turning it into energy projectiles/sword, turning it into an elemental attack)

The 70-meter range was in reference to its non-transmuted and shape changed form or its default form which is an orb.

Mind you, Naruto did a similar thing to what Toneri did by turning his TSOs into Rasenshurikens or TBBs with Wind Chakra

I know, that's what I'm saying.
Toneri can transmute his TSOs into different properties, removing hax, extending range past regular parameters, etc.
Madara hasn't shown that.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Madara hasn't shown that.

Madara didn't do a lot of things during his time as a Jubi-Jin, either because of PIS or CIS or both, or the author didn't know what to do with him.

Against Guy, he didn't use Jutsu, Limbo, or TSO for offense, nor did he use Limbo for defense. He wanted to "Dance" with Guy and relied on CQC.

Against Naruto and Sasuke, he used some Jutsu and Limbo but then forgot to use his remaining TSOs for offense and defense.

 

[RanaProGamer]

http://fanfox.net/manga/naruto/v71/c688.1/1.html#ipg8 just found this, but Sasuke seemed to have stunned Kaguya with his Susanoo blade.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

http://fanfox.net/manga/naruto/v71/c688.1/1.html#ipg8 just found this, but Sasuke seemed to have stunned Kaguya with his Susanoo blade.

That's Kaguya dodging the sword swing

 

[RanaProGamer]

Is it dodging? It looked like it knocked her head down, and more blood spewed compared to the previous panel.

(Edit: Nevermind, the anime confirms she dodged it)

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The movement lines indicate Kaguya quickly flew up like a jumping motion, which is maybe why she didn't notice Naruto moving in front of her, the blood is just her bleeding.

If you compare the two panels, Kaguya is above the sword swing whereas in the previous panel the sword was aimed at her chest/torso.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Makes sense

 

[KingTempest]

Madara didn't do a lot of things during his time as a Jubi-Jin, either because of PIS or CIS or both, or the author didn't know what to do with him.

Definitely wasn't fluid with them though.
We saw Obito prior who could do everything with his orbs.
The best thing we've seen Madara do w as surround himself w/ the orbs against Guy.

Against Guy, he didn't use Jutsu, Limbo, or TSO for offense, nor did he use Limbo for defense. He wanted to "Dance" with Guy and relied on CQC.

That's different. He wasn't fighting Guy, he didn't even dodge his attacks, he just took it like a man.

Against Naruto and Sasuke, he used some Jutsu and Limbo but then forgot to use his remaining TSOs for offense and defense.

Yhwach moment. Had so many abilities that he couldn't showcase them all. Same reason why people didn't use the Paths of Pain.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This thread has kinda lost it's original purpose, we agreed to put this topic on hold for now, so this should be closed, if KingTempest wants to make a new scaling thread for God Tiers, then he can in a separate thread

For now, I will close this as we agreed to put this on hold

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to unlock this thread due to that our upscaling discussion has been finished, and a semi-rule added to the Powerscaling page.

Anyway, what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I do not want to step on any toes. If our staff here think that this thread should remain closed, they should feel free to close it again.

 

[Dalesean027]

This was on hold for a few months so I think whatever the most recent arguements were on both sides needs to be restated and elaborated on but that's just my thoughts personally it's up to the mods to decide really

 

[RanaProGamer]

The thing is, ever since the thread was put on hold, there have been certain changes that have been discussed, but it doesn't change the scaling much.

Basically, BSM Naruto who was not at full power (as he released half of Kurama) scales far above Toneri who performs a feat that reaches 355.31 Exatons as Naruto was able to overpower and one-shot him. The AP difference of 355.31 Exatons and baseline Low 5-B is 1.2x which is basically non-existent.

How does the scaling go now?

Toneri (355.31 Exatons) < Surpressed BSM Naruto (The Last) < Full Power BSM Naruto (The Last) < SPSM Naruto (Part 2 and New Era)

So either we decide to scale those who scale to BSM Naruto to Low 5-B or scale those who we stated are stronger than Toneri to scale to Low 5-B.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think this should be closed honestly. @LordTracer is planning and working on a Low 5-B upscaling CRT that's based on the currently accepted scaling, and will affect most of the God tiers' ratings potentially. So we should preferably just wait for that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I can close this again then if you wish.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Closing it.