Nanatsu no Taizai AP Issues

[Peter1129]

They actually could through sheer downscaling. And also I only said Pre-Purgatory Hunter Fest Ban might be High 7-A+ due to the sheer downscaling and stomps plus power boosts in between them. It's not guaranteed that he'll be High 7-A+ for all we know he might become baseline 6-C.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Once again, you don't downscale to a whother other tier via sheer downscaling

 

[Peter1129]

You actually could do that. Lots of other verses do that. But like I said Pre-Purgatory Hunter Fest Ban is probably going to be 6-C. I only said High 7-A+ is a possibility via downscaling. Though I don't think that's going to happen since Drole's 6-C is quite a bit above baseline 6-C.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Just cause a lot of verse do something wrong, doesn't mean we should do it here, plus that's probably Hyperbole

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We do in fact downscale to other tiers depending on the situation. It's a case by case thing.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

^Fair Enough, but not with a feat that's not near Baseline, I was told that pushing for higher or lower results based off scaling should not be done frequently

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

For example, Soul Calibur characters downscale for feats a lot. Like due to it taking 2 characters to reasonably beat one, they scale to half that AP value. However, simply being much weaker doesn't mean you downscale to a lower tier unless that feat was like..literally baseline.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Dragonmasterxyz

Yeah, that's the issue with these scalings, we're jumping whole tiers from a Non-baseline feat based off one character stomping another who can stomp another, which just feels wrong, also jumping from 400ish Gigatons to 500 Gigatons because a character can stomp another, all this jumping feels wrong

 

[Peter1129]

@Dragonmasterxyz Low 7-B and 7-A are definitely staying due to upscaling and some downscaling due to how close the High 7-C and 7-B are to Low 7-B. And we've already decided to change the High 7-A+s to 6-C. So all that's left now is High 6-C+. So what do you think about the High 6-C+ stuff?

Should Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas be High 6-C+ (550 Gigatons) for stomping Near-Noon Escanor whose durability is 2x his AP which was already vastly above Vessel Tarmiel who is 221.8 Gigatons? The gap from 443.6 Gigatons to 550 Gigatons is 1.24x.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Near Noon Escanor is not vastly above Tarmiel, he's stronger by an unknown amount, and then Meliodas is 2X that, so the 440ish Gigatons, we shouldn't push Assault Mode Meliodas 110 Gigatons higher randomly cause of a stomp

 

[Zezu1995]

what about pushing him after the fight where he was confirmed to be stronger and even true form chanlder was scared when he tried to kill elizabeth after meliodas woke up

 

[Peter1129]

Near-Noon Escanor is vastly stronger than Vessel Tarmiel though. It's an 88k+ vs 114k+. That's a huge difference in power between them. And this isn't even counting Escanor's power level as it gets even closer to noon. 114k is at the start of his battle with Meliodas before he grew strong enough to draw blood from Meliodas. And even tiny differences in power can lead to stomps or one shots.

3k Meliodas effortlessly killed 2k Dale after he stopped holding back. 5k Hendrickson and 5k Albions no sold and pretty much stomped 4K King. 8k Diane no sold and one shot Albions. 11k King one shot Albions in a weakened state. 32k Meliodas stomped 27k Galand. 50k Escanor was pretty much able to no sell and stomp 40k Galand. 56k Meliodas was able to stomp 54k Drole and 50k Gloxinia in succession. 60k Meliodas was able to toy with and stomp 52k Deriere. 88k+ Archangels toyed with 60k Estarossa. 142k Meliodas stomped 114k+ Escanor. 201k Ludoshel overpowered both 168k Cusack and 173k Chandler.

 

[ByAsura]

Near Noon Escanor has a PL of 114,000 to Tarmiel's ~88,000. He's definitely vastly superior, but even that doesn't matter since Meliodas easily gave Escanor internal damage with one hit (he was coughing blood), seemingly broke his hand, and actually withstood the reflected full countered attack like it was a breeze. This should be more than enough for him to be a measily 24% higher, especially since Full Counter reflects an attack with more than two times its original power, possibly even several, and Assault Mode Meliodas has a PL of 142,000.

Edit: Peter commented while I was still editing.

I've also been trying to get Ruin upgraded a bit. He would be Large Town level+, possibly City level (16+ megatons), which is a great supporting feat for the lower tiers of the verse.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Power levels are BS

The whole comparison doesn't even work, since the numbers are super inconsistent

That means that 142,000 Meliodas gets At High 6-C (443.2 Gigatons), we are not giving him an extra 110 Gigatons so we can have Low 6-B just because we want it, it isn't even a tier jump, its just pushing for a random higher number so we can have the High 6-C+ so that we can have Low 6-B, Meliodas should just be At High 6-C (At least 443.2 Gigatons)

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

It's like if a calc that is 25 Megatons, and then a character is vastly superior to that character, then I say well, since he's far stronger, we should bump him to 50 Megatons, this is based on nothing other than being far stronger, all we know is the character than is vastly stronger is that he is far stronger than 25 Megatons, you don't assign a random new number that's higher in value so that we can get to a new tier because we want it

 

[Peter1129]

Power levels aren't BS and the numbers aren't super inconsistent. The character with the higher power level has always been the one winning unless they had hax like Merlin. Also why are you bringing up Low 6-B when all we are asking about right now is if the jump to High 6-C+ is allowed due to how small the gap is. Why are you so against small tier jumps like this anyway? NNT isn't even the only verse that does this. Many other verses jump tiers either by upscaling or downscaling if the gap is small.

 

[Peter1129]

RWBY characters jumped from 8-C+ (1.42 Tons) to baseline High 8-C (2 tons) via stomping.

One Punch Man has 8-As backscaling from a casual (1.77 Kilotons) via being much weaker but still being able to put up a fight. And I think the 7-Cs are from casually stomping Low 7-Cs that are ridiculously more powerful than their base form which is comparable to the casual 1.77 Kilotons feat.

Dragon Ball Toei/GT has 3-C+ (4.454 YottaFoe) from a super casual (3.07 YottaFoe) feat by transforming.

Nasuverse has 7-B+ backscaling from a near baseline 7-A feat.

Pokemon has High 7-As upscaling from a 7-A+ feat.

Soul Calibur like Dragonmasterxyz said has 7-B+ downscaling from 7-As.

I'm pretty sure there are more but these are the main ones I remember off the top of my head.

 

[Zezu1995]

a shit ton of animes/verses grew a tier from stompping idk why yall started with NNT... lol seems fishy

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm against small tier jumps that make no sense, going from being near baseline 6-C to High-7-A would be fine in a scenario, but High 6-C and High 6-C+ Are not separate tiers, they're the same tier, the + just means it has passed the half way point, so just randomly assigning a new number in the same tier without a calc or multiplier is not ok with me

 

[RotofBots]

I won't comment on the rest but low 7-B definitely seems fine.

 

[ByAsura]

It doesn't make "no sense", Escanor took a >443.6 Gigaton attack like it was nothing, and then got absolutley obliterated by Meliodas. I'll grant that the Small Country level jumps could be unjustified, but this one is not.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Jumping random numbers in the same tier because of Character A stomping Character B is unjustified

 

[ByAsura]

It's not jumping random numbers, it's based on a tiny difference well under 24%. You're being completely unreasonable here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

It is jumping random numbers, the increase of 24% is completely fan made and has no multiplier, you're just giving to Meliodas cause he's far stronger than Escanor, it'd be the same as. Having a 20 Megaton feat and then have a far stronger character than that, so you decide to give him 25 Megatons, based on just being stronger, it's giving a character a specific higher value just cause you want to, I was told by Antvasima that you can't just jump to the half way point in a tier to get a + because you a character is far stronger than another

 

[ByAsura]

No. Tarmiel is 221.8 Gigatons. 221.8 x 2 = 443.6 Gigatons, since Escanor with a 114 k pl tanked a full counter, which is ~24% away from being a Large Island level+, even when not accounting for Full Counter more than doubling the strength of an attack.

I'm not speculating or jumping to random tiers, I'm basing it on the fact that Escanor, who is vastly superior to Tarmiel, and Meliodas absolutely tanked this same attack after it was reflected, and Meliodas could very very easily punch him in the gut hard enough to make him spew blood. Plus, Tarmiel and Sariel peformed this feat with no effort.

All of these should be far more than enough to close such a tiny gap.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The increase of 24% still comes from nowhere

The same argument could have been made for 30% or 50% or 75% I don't care if there is a long scaling chain and stomps, you can't just give a once again, Random, increases in statistics because you want to have a character be stronger, if so, why not give every character in the verse 24% increases all the time, because characters are always getting wrecked by other characters, "I mean it's only 24% it's no big deal at all"

This increase isn't based on a multiplier or calc, it's just fan's wanting characters to be a higher value because they want them to be stronger based on stomps

 

[ByAsura]

No it doesn't. I explained it, but you just refuse to listen despite giving no actual evidence to the contrary.

I'm not arguing for those, I'm arguing for something much more reasonable. So you're deciding to ignore the entire scaling of the verse just because you don't believe it's true? The multiplier of Full Counter is established on multiple occasions, and makes sense with verse scaling (except for some instances, like Derieri tanking a Full Counter from Estarossa) since it curbstomps foes like Albion.

No, it's based on series scaling, explainations and logic, also I could make the same argument to call you a downplayer. This is just going in circles.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm well aware of the 2X multiplier that comes from Full Counter and am completely fine with it

Escanor is above Tarmiel, so he's at least 221.8 Gigatons

142,000 Meliodas scales to 2X Escanor because of Full Counter so he's at least 443.6 Gigatons

But somewhere along the way, people said, hey lets make that result 550 Gigatons because he's stronger by a lot

 

[Andytrenom]

If a character stomps someone close to a + he wouldn't get a + for that, but if there's an actual multiplier then I think it would be fine.

 

[ByAsura]

@Aubin That's not what happened. Escanor's (enormously low-balled) durability scales from tanking the attack like it was nothing, and Meliodas could easily harm him.

Edit: Actually, never mind. I could go either way at this point.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Andytrenom

That's exactly what I'm saying, they're pushing someone to a + because he stomped someone close to +

 

[VersusJunkie54]

NNT power levels have questionable reliability, but they're nothing like DB power levels. They are reliable to an extent that we can use them to roughly pinpoint characters who otherwise don't have many other feats they could potentially scale to.

Obviously using them to justify multipliers is a no no. As is trying to multiply an AP value by some PL increase.

Also, lets talk about the Sinner really quick because the previous revision finalized before be became The Disapointment.

 

[ByAsura]

The Sinner scales to most of the higher-ups, so I think it wouldn't be too derailing if this became his downgrade/coffin.

(Mostly copy pasted from my response in a previous thread).

After King made The Original Demon bleed from the mouth, he stops the spear with his shoulder [1] [2]. Although King could have used up magic power depending on translation (one says changing form from long distance is taxing, one says using it over long distance in general does), and Zeldris did feel the need to stop him from getting hit by King's blast, but this seemed to be very powerful, and Zel used God rather than his own power.

The Original Demon is certainly stronger than Ludoshel in Margaret's body, as A) he's the combination of Chandler and Cusack, B) popped the darkness shield created by 5-C Meliodas that Margaret/Ludo could only penetrate with an Ark forcefield [3] [4] [5] [6], C) Merlin stated that any chance she, Escanor, and Ludo had was lost [7], and D) He withstands a massive attack from Ludo's true body.

Also, when Escanor and TOG clashed, the latter was obviously very casual [8] [9] [10] and slices through his chest like paper [11]. It's clear he can easily stomp Escanor because he does just that.

 

[Peter1129]

Pretty sure the Original Demon is currently Low 6-B because he at least has the combined powers of two High 6-C+ that are stronger than Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas. But if High 6-C+ is no longer accepted than he also gets downgraded.

 

[Elizhaa]

So yeah
Low 7-B is fine

7-A is fine

High 7-A+ becomes 6-C

High 6-C+ in debate whether or not upscaling of 1.24x via stomping is allowed.

Low 6-B can't be decided until High 6-C+ is finalized.

I agree.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also, I read the CRT; I agree with Peter1129 and ByAsura's points on the scaling.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Here's what I think for scaling

Low 7-B's stay the same

7-A's stay the same

High 7-A+'s become At least 7-A, likely 6-C

At least High 6-C (At least 221.8 Gigatons): Near Noon Escanor

At least High 6-C (At least 443.6 Gigatons): Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas, Zeldris with God and Ominous Nebula, Ludoshel in Magarets Body, Chandler, Cusack

At least High 6-C+ (At least 887.2 Gigatons): Prime Meliodas, Full Power Zeldris, Sunshine Mael, True Body Ludoshel, Elizabeth, 4C Mael, True Wings King, Original Demon

Low 6-B (1 Teraton): 50% Demon King and Supreme Deity, Post-Purgatory Meliodas, Post-Purgatory Ban, Demon King Possessing Meliodas, Wild

Low 6-B (2 Teratons): 100% Demon King and Supreme Deity

This should be what we use

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So, who agrees with above^

 

[Peter1129]

High 7-A+s should just be 6-C. He only one who would be at least 7-A likely 6-C would probably be Pre-Purgatory Hunter Fest Ban who is currently just High 7-A.

Disagree with your High 6-C+ since most of them would be Low 6-B. Even if we assume True Form Chandler and Cusack are just 443.6 Gigatons (which they aren't due to scaling). Anybody who stomps the Original Demon would be Low 6-B. And everybody on your High 6-C+ list can stomp the Original Demon.

And to be honest The Original Demon should just be baseline Low 6-B since he has the powers of True Form Chandler and Cusack both of whom are far stronger than Post-Revival Assault Mode Meliodas who stomped Near-Noon Escanor who no sold an over 443.6 Gigaton attack twice while he was heavily wounded.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The Original Demon should not be Low 6-B, he gets At least High 6-C+, I can maybe agree with people who stomp him being Low 6-B