My Hero Academia: Sniper Rifle

[Onelixy]

I was looking at a calculation Therefir posted on his blog, and there seems to be an issue with the timeframe.

As @Therefir first correctly states;

"In My Hero Academia Chapter 379, Lady Nagant fires a bullet across the country from Tokyo to the U.A. Flying Fortress located on the coast of Hamamatsu, before Shigaraki even has a chance to fully lower his arm."

+

"As we can see here, Shigaraki moved his arm after the bullet was fired, and when he was hit by it his arm was in front of him, so I'll assume that his arm crossed a distance of at least 90 degrees."

However, the bullet was already traveling before we see Shigaraki's second hand in the air. Therefore, the suggested time it would take Shigaraki to move his hand at least 90 degrees does not apply to the bullet, as the bullet was already on the way, as Therefir seemingly acknowledges.

Here are the panels in question.

I edited the panels here to give a visual representation of what I'm talking about.

It should also be noted that while Nagant probably didn't move far from the Hospital, she was in a different location when she started shooting.

 

[Onelixy]

@Therefir @TheRustyOne @Damage3245

Not sure who or what to tag, but I'm trying to open a dialog here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

These scenes are meant to happen simultaneously. Shigaraki’s first arm gets shot off, he tries the second arm, and it too gets shot off. These happen in rapid succession

 

[Onelixy]

These scenes are meant to happen simultaneously. Shigaraki’s first arm gets shot off, he tries the second arm, and it too gets shot off. These happen in rapid succession

That's an interesting interpretation, but I think that needs to be substantiated.

The bullet is seen being fired before we see Shigaraki again.
Unless we for whatever reason conclude it all happened simultaneously, chronologically, the bullet was in motion before we see Shigaraki's second hand raised in the air.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll wait to see what Therefir has to say.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Unless you think Nagant is predicting Shigaraki’s movements 10-15 seconds into the future, her bullets need to be moving in coordination with Shigaraki’s hand turn

 

[Onelixy]

Unless you think Nagant is predicting Shigaraki’s movements 10-15 seconds into the future, her bullets need to be moving in coordination with Shigaraki’s hand turn

I'm not claiming to know how Nagant shot. My sole claim is that the bullet is depicted as already traveling before we see Shigaraki's hand in the air.

 

[Maitreya12]

Yeah I’d say these scene are happening at the same instance. The bullet was fired at the same moment Shigaraki’s hand is turning.

 

[Onelixy]

Yeah I’d say these scene are happening at the same instance. The bullet was fired at the same moment Shigaraki’s hand is turning.

While that's possible, it seems strange to treat it as a matter of fact. How do we know this is the case in this specific sequence, yet not the case in others? Are we just picking and choosing at will, or is there a way to confirm it?

I'd argue the panels are intentionally depicting the sequence in chronological order as usual. How would we determine who's correct?

 

[TheRustyOne]

@Therefir @TheRustyOne @Damage3245

Not sure who or what to tag, but I'm trying to open a dialog here.

Normal users cannot ping people, they won't get a notification. Only staff can ping people.

Since Therefir made the calc, I'll also just wait for his response.

 

[Therefir]

I'm not seeing what exactly is wrong?

Nagant shoots a bullet>Shigaraki have his hand in the middle a swing>Shigaraki's hand gets hit by that bullet, but now his hand is teared apart in front of him and not behind with his entire body being turned around by the force of the bullet.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not seeing what exactly is wrong?

Nagant shoots a bullet>Shigaraki have his hand in the middle a swing>Shigaraki's hand gets hit by that bullet, but now his hand is teared apart in front of him and not behind with his entire body being turned around by the force of the bullet.

He's saying the distance used is wrong because supposedly the bullet already traveled a good distance before Shigaraki even moved his arm

 

[Therefir]

How is Nagant supposed to be able to see the future and shoot Shigaraki before he even started moving his hand?

When the bullet she previously shoot is still on Shigaraki's head?

 

[Onelixy]

I'm not seeing what exactly is wrong?

Nagant shoots a bullet>Shigaraki have his hand in the middle a swing>Shigaraki's hand gets hit by that bullet, but now his hand is teared apart in front of him and not behind with his entire body being turned around by the force of the bullet.

It's the order of sequences that's wrong.

1. The bullet is fired.
2. We see Shigaraki's hand.
3. You then used Shigaraki's hand to get a timeframe.
4. That timeframe was then applied to the bullet, but the bullet was already traveling

Meaning the timeframes don't align unless we, like the two other users above, conclude that it happened at the exact same moment for this specific sequence. Albeit there's no evidence for this.

How is Nagant supposed to be able to see the future and shoot Shigaraki before he even started moving his hand?

When the bullet she previously shoot is still on Shigaraki's head?

As I said above, I'm not claiming to know what exactly takes place. But to me, treating the sequence like any other, the bullet was already moving first.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Just saying, even if you were to really harp on this whole "sequence of events" thing and didn't think the events were happening simultaneously, Nagant's bullet hardly moved before the scene cuts to Shigaraki

 

[Therefir]

Just saying, even if you were to really harp on this whole "sequence of events" thing and didn't think the events were happening simultaneously, Nagant's bullet hardly moved before the scene cuts to Shigaraki

Yeah, as we can see here the bullet have barely leave the barrel before we cut to Shigaraki.

And the previous bullet is still bouncing off Shigaraki's head.

 

[Therefir]

Also, my calc at most will be only used for support, as TheRustyOne's calc gave higher results.

Or maybe it would just be discarded entirely, I'm not sure.

 

[Onelixy]

Yeah, as we can see here the bullet have barely leave the barrel before we cut to Shigaraki.

And the previous bullet is still bouncing off Shigaraki's head.

The timeframe had to be short due to the bullet bouncing off Shigaraki's head, agreed.

But I don't agree with the rest.
How far or where Nagant's bullet could be located when we see Shigaraki isn't something we know.
We only know the bullet was fired before we see Shigaraki's hand in the next panel.

Per usual, I'm just pointing out what I believe is a flaw.

 

[Onelixy]

Just saying, even if you were to really harp on this whole "sequence of events" thing and didn't think the events were happening simultaneously, Nagant's bullet hardly moved before the scene cuts to Shigaraki

I'm not "harping" on anything. It's how something chronologically happened.

First, the bullet was fired.
We then go back to Shigaraki with his hand raised in the air.
Where the bullet is when we see Shigaraki isn't known or shown, as it started traveling before we saw Shigaraki.
Therefir then deduced a speed for Shigaraki's hand to get a timeframe and then applied it to the bullet, but the bullet was already moving.
As demonstrated above, the sequence would have to look like this for the timeframe to be applicable to the bullet.

It's actually the same reason why this calc (Ninja Deku) from early 2019 was invalid as well, which I think @Therefir agreed with back then(?). As we don't know where Deku is located after we see Shinso's capturing weapon. For it to be valid, the order of sequences would have to be different to prove where Deku was during the third action.

I've made my case. Do with it what you will. I'm not expecting people to be eager about this due to previous interactions I've had and seen.
I guess @TheRustyOne could come with some input if they want, as the calculation is related to their work as well.

Either way, thanks for hearing me out.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Nagant fires, and instantly afterward we see Shiggy is moving. We have no reason to assume the bullet traveled a greater distance by the time we see Shigaraki's panel. While at first it seems like a valid assumption to make, however her landing this shot and why she fired is important as well.

Both reasoning seem possible, but they actually aren't when we don't look at the scene in a vacuum. Considering Shigaraki's movement is literally the very next panel, and Nagant can't see the future. The possibility that she fired because she saw him start to move is very likely and is in fact what I believe happens.

I won't say he was already in this pose, he could be but I won't say that. But I'm saying she fired when she saw him begin to move. I don't see how Nagant could've fired before he started his movement. He may not have been in that pose, but he must have begun moving his arm for her to fire.

I think you're too focused on the panel's placement. You see the bullet being fired panel first and assume she fired before he started to move. However your missing the reason why Nagant fired in the first place. She cannot guess when Shigaraki will move, which can only mean she fired when she saw him move.

We can't say she fired earlier or else we need to explain how she knew the exact time he was going to move and where exactly his hand would be.

The calc only fails if she fired before he began moving. And her firing because she somehow knows when he'll start to move and where his hand will be is far more unlikely than her firing because she sees him start to move and can clearly tell where is hand is going.

I believe Therefir's calc is still fine. Maybe I'm missing something and I'm completely off. But I took a long look at these panels and the previous chapters for some time. And I don't see any other option that is more feasible than what we have right now.

 

[Onelixy]

If that's the conclusion people on the site have decided to go with, I can't do much.

We have no reason to assume the bullet traveled a greater distance by the time we see Shigaraki's panel.

I just want to note that it's entirely possible Nagant's bullet has already traveled an unknown distance when we see Shigaraki, but we're assuming it hasn't for the sake of the calculation.
I'm surprised both CloverDragon and Maitreya claim that "these scenes are happening in the same instance/simultaneously", with no evidence.

However your missing the reason why Nagant fired in the first place. She cannot guess when Shigaraki will move, which can only mean she fired when she saw him move. We can't say she fired earlier or else we need to explain how she knew the exact time he was going to move and where exactly his hand would be.

We have no idea what Nagant sees or how she fires at Shigaraki. Whether there's any amount of prediction involved, how detailed and accurate Rock Lock's live information feed on the location and position of Shigaraki was, if she relies on that information to shoot, and so on.
I'm not claiming to know any of this, but it seems like several people here are.

Either way, not much more I can say on the matter, and I'll revisit the thread tomorrow.
Even if this ends up in nothing, I'd at least like to see the people asserting how it took place to acknowledge that they just guessing and assuming several key aspects.

 

[TheRustyOne]

It's getting pretty late, I'll check back here tomorrow.

 

[Onelixy]

Bumping.

If we want the topic to end here due to a consensus from those who don't think there's an issue with assuming the bullet was launched exactly at the same time as Shigaraki's hand was mid-air, let me know, and I won't push much more.

But I want it noted that it is indeed just a guess or assumption, not a fact.

I'm mostly interested in Rusty and Therefir's takes, but I guess they've said their piece.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I agree that it is an assumption, but due to the nature of the feat and Nagant’s predictive limitations, I believe the stance taken by Therefir’s calc is the most logical.

 

[Onelixy]

I agree that it is an assumption, but due to the nature of the feat and Nagant’s predictive limitations, I believe the stance taken by Therefir’s calc is the most logical.

A fair interpretation.

Personally, I'm not even sure Nagant sees Shigaraki due to her inner monologue, and that she has up-to-date information about his location and position and so on, and simply shoots Shigaraki based on that to aid. Instead of her seeing his arm 200+ km away, and her bullets being sub-relativistic without her high-velocity shots.

I just feel like there are a lot of equally likely possibilities or scenarios here that provide drastically different, and arguably more consistent results. But I guess we should go with what the crowd thinks is more likely.

 

[Damage3245]

If we're being realistic, it is totally impossible for Nagant to see Shigaraki from her vantage point anyway considering that U.A. is in the air and she'd have to be looking up at him through the bedrock of U.A.

 

[Therefir]

She knows where the U.A. Fortress is located, but it would be impossible to know where exactly he is within the massive structure without at least seeing him, as Deku and Shigaraki are moving way too much.

At the end of chapter 378, we can see that Nagant is using the scope of her Quirk for more precision, she isn't blindly shooting at that direction.

 

[Onelixy]

She knows where the U.A. Fortress is located, but it would be impossible to know where exactly he is within the massive structure without at least seeing him, as Deku and Shigaraki are moving way too much.

At the end of chapter 378, we can see that Nagant is using the scope of her Quirk for more precision, she isn't blindly shooting at that direction.

She has access to live updates on their specific positions, so I'm not suggesting she's blindly shooting. But relying on the information being conveyed to her to fire at Shigaraki. She would need to use her scope to focus and aim at the coordinates provided to her, especially from that distance. Shigaraki and Deku had also been stationary for a while when the bullets arrived.

But again, this is only one of the possibilities. Not a fact.

 

[CloverDragon03]

She has access to live updates on their specific positions, so I'm not suggesting she's blindly shooting. But relying on the information being conveyed to her to fire at Shigaraki. She would need to use her scope to focus and aim at the coordinates provided to her, especially from that distance. Shigaraki and Deku had also been stationary for a while when the bullets arrived.

But again, this is only one of the possibilities. Not a fact.

The crux of this argument appears to be that this is “just a possibility”, but isn’t your own interpretation also just a possibility? What makes yours more factual? That’s what needs to be determined, given a lot of power scaling in general is based on possibilities

 

[Onelixy]

The crux of this argument appears to be that this is “just a possibility”, but isn’t your own interpretation also just a possibility? What makes yours more factual? That’s what needs to be determined, given a lot of power scaling in general is based on possibilities

Because I'm not the one asserting anything for a calculation.
I'm simply saying we don't know how this sequence actually took place, yet we are pretending that we do.

For example, and more specifically, you asserted, "These scenes are meant to happen simultaneously."
But there's simply no evidence or reason for this, and I think pointing that out is useful.
You're just making a choice, which also happens to provide sub-relativistic speeds, while I'm saying there are other possibilities that should be recognized.

Now thankfully, other people have acknowledged that it's just a choice they think is more likely, which is at least a step in what I believe is a better direction.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I never asserted my position as objective fact. It’s a manga. There will evidently be room for other possibilities. I simply asserted my position as the most likely and most reasonable possibility

 

[Onelixy]

I never asserted my position as objective fact. It’s a manga. There will evidently be room for other possibilities. I simply asserted my position as the most likely and most reasonable possibility

I don't think it's reasonable that two different panels after one another is happening at the exact same time and not in chronological order unless stated to be the case. That appears to be the norm in the Manga I've consumed over the years, including MHA, but not in this case for some reason.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Simultaneous events being shown in a manga as back-to-back is also pretty common, especially in a case like the war going on in MHA right now where multiple things are happening at once. And again, if you think the events are happening in chronological order, the bullet Nagant fires barely left the barrel when the scene cuts to Shigaraki, which wouldn’t really change the distance traveled at all

 

[Onelixy]

And again, if you think the events are happening in chronological order, the bullet Nagant fires barely left the barrel when the scene cuts to Shigaraki, which wouldn’t really change the distance traveled at all

That would still be simultaneous.

When I say chronological order, I'm saying that when we see Shigaraki, that's after we've seen the bullet already has been fired. Meaning we don't know how far the bullet has traveled when we see Shigaraki. For the feat and timeframe to work chronologically, the bullet would have to be seen fired after Shigaraki's hand was raised.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The sequence as shown by the manga is as such:

The bullet barely leaves the barrel -> Shigaraki moves his arm -> The bullet travels the full distance and removes Shigaraki’s arm

This is what the manga directly gives us. Thus, as far as I’m concerned, it’s the most reasonable interpretation

 

[Damage3245]

The sequence as shown by the manga is as such:

The bullet barely leaves the barrel -> Shigaraki moves his arm -> The bullet travels the full distance and removes Shigaraki’s arm

This is what the manga directly gives us. Thus, as far as I’m concerned, it’s the most reasonable interpretation

Yeah, I don't have a problem with this.

(And I'm the resident critic of the verse)

 

[Onelixy]

The sequence as shown by the manga is as such:

The bullet barely leaves the barrel -> Shigaraki moves his arm -> The bullet travels the full distance and removes Shigaraki’s arm

This is what the manga directly gives us. Thus, as far as I’m concerned, it’s the most reasonable interpretation

You're still treating the bullet sequence and Shigaraki sequence as happening simultaneously then, not chronologically. I hope you see that.

And this is just wrong ↓

"The bullet barely leaves the barrel -> Shigaraki moves his arm -> The bullet travels the full distance and removes Shigaraki’s arm"

The sequence shown in the manga goes like this:
The bullet is fired - > Shigaraki has his hand in the air - > Shigaraki's hand is hit.

We never see the bullet "travel the full distance" after we see Shigaraki. That's just something you're making up.

To me, it's clear that the bullet could've traveled an unknown amount and an unknown amount of time has passed when we move to the next panel, like other sequences usually take place.

But if that's what the consensus people here want to go with, there's not much more I can say.
I think most people aside from CloverDragon at least understood what it meant, but choose one option they thought was more likely.

It should be mentioned during the calculation for transparency that it's assuming (not proven) the panels in this specific instance happen at the same time, for us to get sub-relativistic bullet speed for Nagant's regular bullets.

And the "debunk" is that there is no evidence the panels are meant to happen at the exact same time.

It is what it is.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You're still treating the bullet sequence and Shigaraki sequence as happening simultaneously then, not chronologically. I hope you see that.

To me, it's clear that the bullet could've traveled an unknown amount and an unknown amount of time has passed when we move to the next panel, like other sequences usually take place.

How is what I'm saying indicating simultaneous occurrence? The movement of Shigaraki's hand comes after the miniscule distance moved by the bullet. I'm going strictly by what the sequence of manga panels is

 

[Onelixy]

How is what I'm saying indicating simultaneous occurrence? The movement of Shigaraki's hand comes after the miniscule distance moved by the bullet. I'm going strictly by what the sequence of manga panels is

I don't get how you're writing this and don't understand that it's the same as saying it happens simultaneously. To demonstrate this;

Your stance and what you've written above is that when we see Shigaraki in the next panel, the bullet is still here from the prior panel

Correct?

However, for someone who believes the panels can have a typical chronological order and purpose, the location of the bullet when we get back to Shigaraki isn't known, as it was already fired and on the way in the prior panel.

And since I don't believe I've seen any evidence or reason that these two panels depict something happening at the exact same moment in time, the timeframe of Shigaraki's hand wouldn't apply to the bullet. As it was already on its way when we see his hand raised in the air.

I'm not sure how else to explain this to you. It seems like everyone else got it, but disagreed on the likelihood and was fine with just assuming it took place at the same time for the sake of the calculation. Albeit there's still no evidence for this, just a consensus, which in all honesty was exactly what I expected.

 

[Onelixy]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with this.

That's all good.

But this -

The bullet barely leaves the barrel -> Shigaraki moves his arm -> The bullet travels the full distance and removes Shigaraki’s arm

- doesn't happen.

We see the bullet being fired -> we see Shigaraki's raised arm -> we see Shigaraki's hand getting hit.
That is quite literally all we see.

We never see that "the bullet travels the full distance" after Shigaraki's hand is raised.
That's something @CloverDragon03 makes up, which I guess you have no problem with.