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Mutant Upgrade
- Thread starter Freedomstar
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...that doesn't exactly answer the question I had earlier. I never said Zawavari could beat him, I said harm him. Also tricking seems more like guess work. Dude was clearly worked up
I am not missing any of the context, i still find it questionable that he attacked them and they survived. Yes, pieces in a board, I read that.
But that makes me want to question further;
- Why did he not imprison them within something?
- Why did he let them help storm recover, thus leading to his own downfall?
(I was gonna make a comment about how it's impossible for such low tiers to survive a supposedly tier 2 attack without a single scratch on them. Guess we gotta leave it at the comic book logic then. Fair).
That honestly doesn't mean anything. Just because it's referenced, doesn't mean the power levels are even remotely similar.
And once again, this can be much better evaluated if you create a blog for all the people in the scaling chain. A bit of work, but easier to evaluate.
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1. And I answered that. He's a god of tricksters and chaos. He was toying with them. As you can see afterward everyone was defeated easily
2. Because he attacks someone doesn't mean it's at full power. The context of his statement allowed us to see he had use for them. Galactus blasted the Fantastic Four but it was stated that blast was powerful enough to split a planet's core. Not every attack has to be at peak level to harm someone below that you aren't even trying to kill. Heck Psylocke withstood a blast from Meryln, Roma's father who is Tier 2-A.
3. He threw them under rocks with Storm for a reason. Once again you're missing context important ones too that were in the same story. BP said Adversary threw her under rocks to induce her fear because she is the main threat. Which is true they fought before (Forge sealed him with his shaman magic) but Adversary acknowledged Storm's untapped spiritual powers that were a threat to him. She finally unlocked in when she became a goddess and dispersed his magical living storm over Wakanda while he was in the prison dimension. She later on fully ascended and one-shotted him.
4. It means it's the same Adversary. Not that it matters because he still defeated the Orisha who are at least multi galaxy level and I believe Bast alone defeated Mephisto. Adversary still powerful enough to warp the universe and his reality-warping powers were stated to be Q from Star Trek level of reality-warping.
Not to mention Roma said every time he's free from the prison dimension he's even stronger than before. It's also shown Adversary powers at their weakest are 2-A when Haven had them.
2. Because he attacks someone doesn't mean it's at full power. The context of his statement allowed us to see he had use for them. Galactus blasted the Fantastic Four but it was stated that blast was powerful enough to split a planet's core. Not every attack has to be at peak level to harm someone below that you aren't even trying to kill. Heck Psylocke withstood a blast from Meryln, Roma's father who is Tier 2-A.
3. He threw them under rocks with Storm for a reason. Once again you're missing context important ones too that were in the same story. BP said Adversary threw her under rocks to induce her fear because she is the main threat. Which is true they fought before (Forge sealed him with his shaman magic) but Adversary acknowledged Storm's untapped spiritual powers that were a threat to him. She finally unlocked in when she became a goddess and dispersed his magical living storm over Wakanda while he was in the prison dimension. She later on fully ascended and one-shotted him.
4. It means it's the same Adversary. Not that it matters because he still defeated the Orisha who are at least multi galaxy level and I believe Bast alone defeated Mephisto. Adversary still powerful enough to warp the universe and his reality-warping powers were stated to be Q from Star Trek level of reality-warping.
Not to mention Roma said every time he's free from the prison dimension he's even stronger than before. It's also shown Adversary powers at their weakest are 2-A when Haven had them.
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I get what you are trying to say tho, but Galactus is the wrong example to use. His is Hella weak coming to earth majority of the times. Whereas this guy was at "full power" according to you. So I suppose we should let that to comic book logic and end it. But even then, not even a scratch or a grunt... I understand comic book and stories logic, but it's baffling that someone of this level would attack someone of tier 9 or 8 and the other won't be hurt, no matter how much they hold back.
And I get that they were thrown under the rock for a reason, but the question is... Why? Why would he write his own demise? That's what I find Hella odd in this whole thing.
Also the Q example doesn't hold up. Its meaningless. And if it wasn't, then that would make this story even more questionable. How is a tier 1 attacking a tier 9 and 8 and doesn't flatten them even a bit.
Also the Mephisto one needs context. Because he is 4-B sometimes, sometimes 2-C.
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The scan you sent earlier doesn't suggest 3-B tho... 3-C, I could see it, but it needs more context or could be flowery language.
But again, please just make a blog since it will make this evaluation much much simpler.
And also make a blog for every feat (and anti feat) and statements of Storm's goddess key. Even more extensive than what's shown here.
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What I'm saying if you're pointing out things like this then just about every profile needs to be downgraded. The same way Firelord fought spider-man. Stardust and Silver Surfer need to be downgraded to 5-A since Storm and Human Torch put up a fight against them. Monica harmed Zeus with a blast that doesn't stop Zeus from being Skyfather level. If that's gonna be your excuse then a lot of profiles need to be affected. Does Gladiator get downgraded because Gambit, Rachel Grey, and Cannonball fought him? How about Terrax who got stomped by Storm and Rachel Grey? Once again the context of the scan shows Adversary had plans with them and Storm. Adversary is literally known for using people. Just like his servant that stomped Zawavari or him using a tribe to spread his chaos. Or him using the X-men or Roma and so on.
He didn't plan his defeat once again you didn't look at the scan or have no knowledge of Storm. Storm has a fear of small and tight spaces since she debuted in 1975. It was literally stated in the scan Adversary did that. Not only that D'Kano was holding up the rocks on his own while they were trying to get storm in check before of her fear. BP was telling Storm to tap into her goddess powers on the communicators and she fully ascended to one-shot him.
Once again you're lacking context. If attacks to get them out his way..... THAT DOESN'T MEANS HE IS AT FULL POWER TO KILL THEM if he directly stated he had USE FOR THEM. WHY would he skill someone he needs??? It's in caps for you to fully read.
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Once again, as I have stated five times or so, create a blog for every feat of Adversary, Roma and the Goddess Storm. Once you have that ready, it's easier to evaluate.
Because every other feat or statement I have seen for either makes this Hella inconsistent and an outlier.
And again, I am not missing the context, just pointing out how odd it is. I get the comic book and fiction logic, but they could at least try.
Anyway, until you make a blog with all the relevant feats, Statements (and even anti feats), it will be too hard to do anything. Heck, even giving her anything above 5A seems odd.
Also, whataboutism is bad. I know the issues with the profiles you have mentioned and I am planning a downgrade, but currently I am downgrading Phoenix Hosts and busy with some other revisions. Between work on other hobbies, I don't get much time for these stuff. Give it time, all will be fixed in due time.
Because every other feat or statement I have seen for either makes this Hella inconsistent and an outlier.
And again, I am not missing the context, just pointing out how odd it is. I get the comic book and fiction logic, but they could at least try.
Anyway, until you make a blog with all the relevant feats, Statements (and even anti feats), it will be too hard to do anything. Heck, even giving her anything above 5A seems odd.
Also, whataboutism is bad. I know the issues with the profiles you have mentioned and I am planning a downgrade, but currently I am downgrading Phoenix Hosts and busy with some other revisions. Between work on other hobbies, I don't get much time for these stuff. Give it time, all will be fixed in due time.
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It's stated word from word they created the makers of galaxies. What else do you want it to say? It means the Orisha created several beings that made galaxies. Orisha> the makers Storm>>Orisha
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You know... Galaxies could mean anything without further context. They could making a world after world, and it took them too long. Or solar systems. Or they are talking about civilisation wise and not exactly ap wise. Soooo many possibilities because of just few words.
Also creating someone who can create a galaxy doesn't mean the creator should have more power than them. Without it being proven in comics, it shouldn't be the case.
Stark has planet busting and above armours, but he himself is weak af. Same with some other characters, like Thanos and Omega Thanosi.
Also creating someone who can create a galaxy doesn't mean the creator should have more power than them. Without it being proven in comics, it shouldn't be the case.
Stark has planet busting and above armours, but he himself is weak af. Same with some other characters, like Thanos and Omega Thanosi.
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It's not about downgrading it's about this is common in comics. If you took stuff like this seriously then Storm with her mutant powers should be herald tier for her fight with SS and Stardust.
Also, it's not odd for her to be rated higher if she's using her divinity and faith powers solely different from her mutant powers.
1. He didn't plan his defeat. He actually used Storm's weakness against her and still got defeated. Once again if you read the issue. Black Panther explained his plans were to get Storm from the fight by inducing her fear of tight spaces. BP went to go on to say he hope their plans are better than Adversary. This is why the country's faith ascended Storm to a new Wakandan Goddess. This is the context that you failed to mentions.
2. He didn't try to kill the other too. His performance with Shuri should let you know he was playing around. Let's not forget that context. He was playing around and even gave Shuri a chance to run away. He didn't get serious until they hit him with metal.
Then goes on to say "No more games Wakandans" So the point you're trying to prove is all in context he was simply being a trickster and Storm oneshotted a serious Adversary.
Also, it's not odd for her to be rated higher if she's using her divinity and faith powers solely different from her mutant powers.
1. He didn't plan his defeat. He actually used Storm's weakness against her and still got defeated. Once again if you read the issue. Black Panther explained his plans were to get Storm from the fight by inducing her fear of tight spaces. BP went to go on to say he hope their plans are better than Adversary. This is why the country's faith ascended Storm to a new Wakandan Goddess. This is the context that you failed to mentions.
2. He didn't try to kill the other too. His performance with Shuri should let you know he was playing around. Let's not forget that context. He was playing around and even gave Shuri a chance to run away. He didn't get serious until they hit him with metal.
Then goes on to say "No more games Wakandans" So the point you're trying to prove is all in context he was simply being a trickster and Storm oneshotted a serious Adversary.
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Actually, I was wrong The Makers are the Orisha it's all a circle that made the galaxies. And no they didn't make civilizations Bast herself confirmed it. There were 5 galaxies involved in the story created by the Orisha.
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Marvel herald tiers are 5A tho...
Which is why I am asking you make a blog of it, which you still haven't agreed to.
But until you do that, "at least 5A, likely far higher" is the best tier for her atm.
But I didn't??? I literally mentioned it in my post. The scan spoke for itself. I thought that much was obvious.
Her godhood is not denied by anyone, but for the tenth time, please make a blog with all feats, anti feats and statements for evaluation. Until you do that, we will be keep going in circles.
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Lmaoo I know but what I meant is Heralds that are 4-B. Aka way beyond someone's like Storm paygrade. Even then there is speed strength and etc to factor in. Storm with her mutant powers is a fodder compared to SS and Stardust.
I posted just about every single one of Adversary and Roma feats on the first page. I don't know what to post lolll
Yes, which meant he didn't plan his defeat if he thought using Storm's fear against her was gonna be his victory.
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Make a blog so it's easier to evaluate. But definitely include anti feats for easier evaluation
Instead of me or someone going through hundreds of messages, it will be easier and more productive if a blog was made from the get-go to save all this trouble.
It's a lot of work, I understand. But it will make things easier in the future for everyone.
Sorry if I sounded harsh earlier. I didn't mean to
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Upon further reading of my previous stuff I wasn't fully for a 2-A rating. He really only had like two things that sorta back that point, the Omni-Verse quote and the edge of existence quote. But the latter isn't 2-A in of itself and the Omniverse quote is the only solid 2-A thing for him.
Feat wise you're not getting anything more than scaling or something a Tier 7 couldn't replicate given the right power set.
Feat wise you're not getting anything more than scaling or something a Tier 7 couldn't replicate given the right power set.
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The Adversary was originally claimed to be able to recreate the local universe, and imprisoned Roma, but was then defeated by Forge and the X-Men, so he is very contradictory. If he was at the peak of his power when defeated by goddess Storm, it might qualify for a 3-A or Low 2-C rating, or it might not.
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The thing is, nowhere in the comic it is hinted at that he is at the peak of his power.
But "At least 5-A, like higher" could be the best possible option for her atm.
But "At least 5-A, like higher" could be the best possible option for her atm.
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This thread is STILL unresolved?
At this point, deadass, just make an Adversary file for reference, it's genuinely just 35 issues to read, even if you're the slowest reader imaginable, this is a week's worth of work, and if you have a decent pace it's a day.
This has to one of the slower paced threads I've seen in a while actually, only one a fraction comparable may be the Magneto rewrite, which took a few days to this threads' months
At this point, deadass, just make an Adversary file for reference, it's genuinely just 35 issues to read, even if you're the slowest reader imaginable, this is a week's worth of work, and if you have a decent pace it's a day.
This has to one of the slower paced threads I've seen in a while actually, only one a fraction comparable may be the Magneto rewrite, which took a few days to this threads' months
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We are just waiting for FreedomStar to make a blog of all relevant people. They said they don't know how to make a page, so that's why we are waiting for the blog. Once the blog is ready, making a page for him should be easy I believe.
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if anyone knows the character, please do lol
No way in hell I am re-reading old x-men comics. they are a chore (and rather bad/meh)
No way in hell I am re-reading old x-men comics. they are a chore (and rather bad/meh)
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Well to be blunt, no one is exactly stopping them to resolve it, for all the years. They just haven't... done so.
I don't think anyone insulted anyone?
I don't think anyone insulted anyone?
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She needs help from our staff to get the suggested changes properly evaluated, much like the other revision threads in this forum.
You called her a deadass, and that sort of thing has been enough to trigger a conflict previously.
You called her a deadass, and that sort of thing has been enough to trigger a conflict previously.
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Pfft
Ok then
Ok then
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I prefer to keep it open. Freedomstar has provided all of the necessary issue references for Storm, so as long as somebody checks through them at Read Comic Online or similar, and somebody provides a similar list of issue references for The Adversary for similar inspection, that should probably be enough to go with.
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https://vsbattles.com/threads/adversary-blog.121681/
I made a blog
Also, I highly doubt that the current Adversary would be tier 7 or 5-A lmao. In Cable and X-Force #16 2013 it was stated that Adversary "had a mad-on for recreating our existence into his own" (This means from 1980's to 2010's his powers have been written consistently) which means modern Adversary is still at his classic power level... And even the author compared his reality-warping powers to Q from Star-Trek to describe his powers in the same scan.
Even more proof Adversary is still at his classic power level. In the same scan Forge says "Anyhow... My people have battled the Adversary for generations, spent half of my life training for it. A few years back I brought the hammer thought I had him beat"
In this statement, he is talking about his battle against Adversary X-Factor Vol 1 121 (1996) to 2013 17-year gap. The X-Factor storyline shows, Adversary defeats Roma easily and thank her full-power attack. It is stated by Forge it is the same Adversary from their fight. So it would still be Current Adversary > Current Roma, who tanked an attack by Mastermind, who had a sword with the power split the multiverse trying to kill her, tanked the starlight citadel, the chaos wave, all the dimensions in existence clashing together on her.
Haven using his powers in this Storyline created a plane of existence which was the borderland separating existence and oblivion.
What makes this scan even more impressive is that the current Adversary in this story was only a fraction of himself. All of Adversary was in the prison dimension after his third attempt to bring chaos to all worlds and all-time strings. In the very scan, it is explained that a small piece of Adversary survived in Forge's mind and freed itself. Even stated Or the whole damn world will have to pay the piper if he wasn't stopped since he was obsessed with destroying and recreating existence.
The Adversary Storm faced was the full one who freed himself from the prison dimension. The Adversary she faced was also way stronger. He went by the god name Sefako the Twice-Risen God, which he used his servant while in the prison dimension to gather followers to believe in him which would make him stronger with faith and divinity like Storm does in her Hadari Yao mode.
So his power level never changed which is why in BP it was shown to be the classic Adversary Storm faced in the '80s... In fact, he's even stronger now that he gained followers to praise him making his power even stronger than before.
So the "Current" Adversary isn't written at his Classic levels is completely false when a piece of Adversary is a threat to existence and Storm faced a complete version amped by worship.
I made a blog
Also, I highly doubt that the current Adversary would be tier 7 or 5-A lmao. In Cable and X-Force #16 2013 it was stated that Adversary "had a mad-on for recreating our existence into his own" (This means from 1980's to 2010's his powers have been written consistently) which means modern Adversary is still at his classic power level... And even the author compared his reality-warping powers to Q from Star-Trek to describe his powers in the same scan.
Even more proof Adversary is still at his classic power level. In the same scan Forge says "Anyhow... My people have battled the Adversary for generations, spent half of my life training for it. A few years back I brought the hammer thought I had him beat"
In this statement, he is talking about his battle against Adversary X-Factor Vol 1 121 (1996) to 2013 17-year gap. The X-Factor storyline shows, Adversary defeats Roma easily and thank her full-power attack. It is stated by Forge it is the same Adversary from their fight. So it would still be Current Adversary > Current Roma, who tanked an attack by Mastermind, who had a sword with the power split the multiverse trying to kill her, tanked the starlight citadel, the chaos wave, all the dimensions in existence clashing together on her.
Haven using his powers in this Storyline created a plane of existence which was the borderland separating existence and oblivion.
What makes this scan even more impressive is that the current Adversary in this story was only a fraction of himself. All of Adversary was in the prison dimension after his third attempt to bring chaos to all worlds and all-time strings. In the very scan, it is explained that a small piece of Adversary survived in Forge's mind and freed itself. Even stated Or the whole damn world will have to pay the piper if he wasn't stopped since he was obsessed with destroying and recreating existence.
The Adversary Storm faced was the full one who freed himself from the prison dimension. The Adversary she faced was also way stronger. He went by the god name Sefako the Twice-Risen God, which he used his servant while in the prison dimension to gather followers to believe in him which would make him stronger with faith and divinity like Storm does in her Hadari Yao mode.
So his power level never changed which is why in BP it was shown to be the classic Adversary Storm faced in the '80s... In fact, he's even stronger now that he gained followers to praise him making his power even stronger than before.
So the "Current" Adversary isn't written at his Classic levels is completely false when a piece of Adversary is a threat to existence and Storm faced a complete version amped by worship.
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It was never hinted in any of his showings he's at peak power. But we know a piece of him is still able to affect the existence and is pan-dimensional.
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Journey into Mystery Vol 1 627
Mephisto stated between the Devil's Advocacy includes hell lords like Dormammu, Mephisto, Cyttorak, Adversary, Shuma-Gorath, and much more that they argue about who's the true Satan and if anyone sat in Satan's chair they would be torn apart. He also goes on to say the strongest Hell Lords have to pick a name they can defend against other hell lords. Well, Adversary means Satan in Hebrew which means he is fighting against other hell lords to keep his name.
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Howling Commandos of S.H.I.E.L.D. Vol 1 5
Also Adversary while using a vessel to appear on Earth Stated he was the shadows themselves. I don’t know if he implied he was apart of shadow gods who sit above the shadows (gods rumored to be Beyonders) or just like Roma stated his chaos is a primal force of the universe… his power of shadows is to.
Also Adversary while using a vessel to appear on Earth Stated he was the shadows themselves. I don’t know if he implied he was apart of shadow gods who sit above the shadows (gods rumored to be Beyonders) or just like Roma stated his chaos is a primal force of the universe… his power of shadows is to.
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You need to post your blog in the wiki instead, as you were told elsewhere.
Anyway, what do the rest of you think? Marvel runs on rapidly drastically shifting power levels, "everybody can fight everybody" and "whoever the writer likes best wins", so I am personally uncertain.
Anyway, what do the rest of you think? Marvel runs on rapidly drastically shifting power levels, "everybody can fight everybody" and "whoever the writer likes best wins", so I am personally uncertain.
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I will reply in the thread it self
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Woulda been easier there... but sure.
Going by the current standards of the verse on the wiki, Adversary could potentially be much higher going by the statements. Pan Dimensional is pretty high when it comes to Marvel. And taking control of the Starlight Citadel is not exactly an AP feat per say, but it is an interesting supporting evidence.
The rogue part is an extreme anti feat tho. Rogue with all powers of earth heroes (all planet busters) was nearly overloaded, and scales beneath the Sentry, who is only solar system tier. Additionally, Rogue's absorption has limits, so...
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, going by some scans, like the universe cannot function without Adversary, that on itself is an extremely high showing. However, I need to ask, in context, when they say "universe", do they mean multiverse? Or just universe?
I would recommend making a similar one for Roma if possible, because depending on how her feats and statements go, Adversary could make it extremely high into the tier 1's of Marvel, potentially even Low 1-A for all we know.
Going by the current standards of the verse on the wiki, Adversary could potentially be much higher going by the statements. Pan Dimensional is pretty high when it comes to Marvel. And taking control of the Starlight Citadel is not exactly an AP feat per say, but it is an interesting supporting evidence.
The rogue part is an extreme anti feat tho. Rogue with all powers of earth heroes (all planet busters) was nearly overloaded, and scales beneath the Sentry, who is only solar system tier. Additionally, Rogue's absorption has limits, so...
Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, going by some scans, like the universe cannot function without Adversary, that on itself is an extremely high showing. However, I need to ask, in context, when they say "universe", do they mean multiverse? Or just universe?
I would recommend making a similar one for Roma if possible, because depending on how her feats and statements go, Adversary could make it extremely high into the tier 1's of Marvel, potentially even Low 1-A for all we know.
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