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Music Video Files Re-Evaluation (STAFF ONLY)

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The_Impress

The_Impress

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So currently our Editing Rules page lists the following rule:
Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, memes, YouTube personalities, reality television, talk shows, music videos, stage personas, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead. Take note that there is obviously a difference between a profile written as a joke, and the character itself being automatically funny.
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This has been put into question recently in the Profile Deletion Requests Thread, where some staff members were in support of enacting this rule for file deletions, while others were against it.

To move discussion this thread has been made to potentially make adjustments to the above rule, to reflect wiki opinion on what's acceptable.

Starting off this thread I'd want basic opinions on whether the rule needs to be changed altogether, or it is fine in the current state and the violating files are to be deleted.
 
I think it needs to be changed, Unlike the other examples music videos can very well have feats and an actual (simple) plotline, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to index the more involved ones, and they are definitely not joke profiles.
 
I mostly care about the reasons for the change being coherent, so while I may point out flaws in specific implementations or reasons, I'm generally pretty neutral.

I think it needs to be changed, Unlike the other examples music videos can very well have feats and an actual (simple) plotline, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to index the more involved ones, and they are definitely not joke profiles.

You say that music videos are different from the other examples in that they can have feats and a plotline. I think that's completely wrong. Fan characters, advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, reality TV, and talk shows can all have feats and plotlines.
  • Fan characters shouldn't need much elaboration by the mere existence of the fc-oc wiki.
  • Advertisement characters often have skits with plotlines running for the period of the advertisement or across multiple advertisements. In addition, quite a few of them have tie-in video games, which we also currently don't index as they're still advertisement characters.
  • Memes were excluded from the list, as they tend to not have a coherent primary canon to draw feats/plotlines from. But ones that do (such as Pepe's appearance in Boy's Club) seem to be allowed to have profiles.
  • YouTube personalities should be pretty clear from the attempts to index AVGN and TGWTG characters over the years. Feats and plotlines definitely do exist.
  • Reality TV is more of a stretch, since most of the characters are ordinary humans doing ordinary human things, but I believe a few may qualify; Solitary is presented as having an AI handing out challenges to the contestants. I'm pretty sure there's a plotline there, and there's also probably feats.
  • Talk show is probably the biggest stretch, and I was going to ditch it, until I remembered that The Eric Andre Show has talk show segments with destructible props and wacky editing that could likely be considered feats. But I don't think it'd really meet the plotline test, and one could instead choose to interpret it as a sketch comedy show.
  • I didn't include stage personas since I don't know any that would actually qualify, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's some recent performer who has incorporated lore/feats into their live shows.
I think if "can have feats and plotlines" is your standard, you'd have to go a lot further than just allowing music videos.
 
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Agnaa said:
  • I didn't include stage personas since I don't know any that would actually qualify, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's some recent performer who has incorporated lore/feats into their live shows.
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We also disallow stage personas in a separate rule beyond this, so think that's irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Agnaa said:
  • Fan characters shouldn't need much elaboration by the mere existence of the fc-oc wiki.
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These have their own, obvious issue unrelated to the subject at hand
Agnaa said:
  • In addition, quite a few of them have tie-in video games, which we also currently don't index as they're still advertisement characters.
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No, hold on, profiling VG adaptations of ad characters is perfectly fine lol? Pepsiman has a profile, Kool-Aid Man games have a profile, there's more too
Agnaa said:
  • Reality TV is more of a stretch, since most of the characters are ordinary humans doing ordinary human things
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I mean that's its own issue lol
Agnaa said:
I think if "can have feats and plotlines" is your standard, you'd have to go a lot further than just allowing music videos.
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Feats, plotlines, and an actual canon, which most of these lack. Even if the canon is just a 4 min video, that is a self-contained story, which is more than most of these, and the rest have other factors playing a role in their ban
 
These have their own, obvious issue unrelated to the subject at hand

Fair.

No, hold on, profiling VG adaptations of ad characters is perfectly fine lol? Pepsiman has a profile, Kool-Aid Man games have a profile, there's more too

I'd pen this down as an inconsistent application of the rules. I am highly confident that there were either Burger King or Ronald McDonald video game profiles that were deleted for that reason. On top of that, I believe this workaround was attempted with the AVGN video game, but was rejected.

I mean that's its own issue lol

Yeah, but most ain't all.

Feats, plotlines, and an actual canon, which most of these lack. Even if the canon is just a 4 min video, that is a self-contained story, which is more than most of these, and the rest have other factors playing a role in their ban

Could you elaborate on the other reasons why you think advertisement characters, YouTube personalities, reality TV characters, and talk show characters shouldn't have profiles? That process could provide us with some guidance on exactly which music video characters to allow.
 
I much prefer if we continue to only allow characters that come from actual stories, and are not just throwaway memetic figments or snippets of information. We need to have some form of standards and not allow anything here.

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu

What do you think?
 
Copypasting what I wrote on the deletion thread

A lot of music video can be really abstract and not have a clear storyline but that's no reason to disallow music video profiles in general. Even individual music videos can be fine imo but it will obviously be case by case
 
Music is as legitimate a form of narrative as other media so they shouldn't be rejected by default. But there's still a matter of relevancy and presence of a clear storyline. We shouldn't index just whatever random events happen in a music video with no rhyme or reason, it should actually be trying to tell a story
 
Yes, there should be a coherent story that was told via the music video, it needs to be reasonably prominent/notable/well-known, and we need reliable feats to scale from as well.
 
I think argument can be made that the rule's unnecessary altogether? Any blatant violations of it are just handled by the stage persona rule and the need to have a canon, so don't see why it's needed anyways.
 
We need to be very specific with our rules, or misunderstandings will happen, and loopholes can and will be used against us, according to my experience.
 
I agree that throwaway meme characters who really only appeared in one music video shouldn't have a profile. And I also agree that celebrity music artists should not be treated as characters and/or verses and thus are not allowed here. But a musical franchise with a long running continuity and various fight scenes and lore is fair game such as Steam Powered Giraffe.

The rule should have less to do with its status as a musical and more to do with the existence of continuity as well as Vs debating material such as fight scenes, feats, lore, ect.
 
I previously held the idea that any music video with a plot could be indexed, though nowadays I think I align more closely with DDM's take, yeah. A franchise is important, a continuing plot longer than a single video. So Steam Powered Giraffe would be fine, whereas my old SIAMES pages would not (as much as it pains me to say such a thing).
 
I also agree with Medeus in this case.

Thank you for the evaluations.
 
No stage personas or characters with a plot only from a single video.... To understand exactly what that entails, would Crazy Frog still be allowed? I'm not sure if his videos have much of a continuing plot. They mostly seem to involve Crazy Frog doing something, running into some robots, the robots try to catch him, they fail, and then they all dance together. While events don't really seem carried over (except, I guess, recognition of the frog?), this doesn't seem much different from some episodic cartoons.
 
I am not familiar with the character, but, based on the above, to me he seems to barely qualify for inclusion. I am open for other input though.
 
We already have some staff members here. It seems better to wait for them for a while first.

Or should I call for all of our remaining administrators?
 
Even if we decide to have music video characters, these profiles are awful and should get deleted.

Overall, I'm neutral. If something has enough content to make a reasonably good profile (unlike the two above), I have no qualms.
 
I'm leaning towards agreeing with Armorchompy's, DDM's and Andytrenom's points
 
Antvasima said:
I much prefer if we continue to only allow characters that come from actual stories, and are not just throwaway memetic figments or snippets of information. We need to have some form of standards and not allow anything here.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Yes, there should be a coherent story that was told via the music video, it needs to be reasonably prominent/notable/well-known, and we need reliable feats to scale from as well.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
We need to be very specific with our rules, or misunderstandings will happen, and loopholes can and will be used against us, according to my experience.
Click to expand...
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree that throwaway meme characters who really only appeared in one music video shouldn't have a profile. And I also agree that celebrity music artists should not be treated as characters and/or verses and thus are not allowed here. But a musical franchise with a long running continuity and various fight scenes and lore is fair game such as Steam Powered Giraffe.

The rule should have less to do with its status as a musical and more to do with the existence of continuity as well as Vs debating material such as fight scenes, feats, lore, ect.
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So would something based on the above sentiments be acceptable?
 
The_Impress said:
"Music video files are permitted as long as they tell a coherent story with definite feats, alongside following our standards of stage personas, canon and notability."
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To me that seems good to apply. Thank you for helping out. It is very appreciated.

What do the rest of you think?
 
Thank you for the reply.

Would you be willing to apply the new rule if I unlock the Editing Rules page, Impress?
 
Thank you for the replies.

@The_Impress

If I unlock our editing rules page, are you willing to quickly add your suggested new rule text?
 
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Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?
 
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