Music stage personas (Staff only)

[Antvasima]

Hello.

I think that we should delete all of the music stage persona pages that have recently popped up in our wiki.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Music

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Music_Characters

I thought that we made an exception for certain wrestlers that are not named the same as they are in real life, in order to avoid entirely wiping out a well-belowed verse that is mostly, but not entirely, fictional, but it seems inappropriate to let real world, non-fighting-oriented, celebrities try to kill each other in potential battles, especially as it might also make us susceptible to legal suits that can completely shut down our community.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As mentioned earlier, I do agree that most of our stage personas should be removed. Especially if they're not part of long running continuities. Music verses such as Steam Powered Giraffe are fine. But verses that really only last one music video I'd argue for a removal. Also, to my knowledge, it seems @MaidRips is the one who made most of those profiles, so I think they'd best be informed of the thread. Should they also be welcome to discuss it? Depending which ones are fine to stay and which ones should be deleted may very of course.

 

[Damage3245]

especially as it might also make us susceptible to legal suits that can completely shut down our community.

This part just seems like paranoid scaremongering to me...


But I don't think that stage persona profiles should really be present on the wiki. I agree with DDM pretty much.

 

[Antvasima]

As mentioned earlier, I do agree that most of our stage personas should be removed. Especially if they're not part of long running continuities. Music verses such as Steam Powered Giraffe are fine. But verses that really only last one music video I'd argue for a removal. Also, to my knowledge, it seems @MaidRips is the one who made most of those profiles, so I think they'd best be informed of the thread. Should they also be welcome to discuss it? Depending which ones are fine to stay and which ones should be deleted may very of course.

Well, I suppose that they can be allowed to make a single post in this thread, but not more than that, as this is a staff issue to decide.

This part just seems like paranoid scaremongering to me...

Well, I am a rather worried type of person, who does not want to gamble with the safety of our community, and I have been told that extremely petty, conceited, and entitled celebrity divas have repeatedly sued others in the past for minor wounded ego issues.

But I don't think that stage persona profiles should really be present on the wiki. I agree with DDM pretty much.

Thank you for you support.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hello.

I think that we should delete all of the music stage persona pages that have recently popped up in our wiki.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Music

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Music_Characters

I thought that we made an exception for certain wrestlers that are not named the same as they are in real life, in order to avoid entirely wiping out a well-belowed verse that is mostly, but not entirely, fictional, but it seems inappropriate to let real world, non-fighting-oriented, celebrities try to kill each other in potential battles, especially as it might also make us susceptible to legal suits that can completely shut down our community.

Actually, everyone agreed to wrestlers who shared their real life names provided the media they were from was significantly different from their real selves (basically if they were "acting" a version of themselves). Overwhelmingly so, celebrities such as John Cena were permitted to stay.

Seems to be what the wiki wants.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

For the ones I have created, I can say that they do not fall under "stage persona" categories.

• Leroy Brown is not the singer himself, but a character he is singing about as he is singing about him in a narrative context. He is the protagonist of a cautionary tale. The same for Jim Walker.
• The same should go for They Might Be Giants' Statue as it is the antagonist of the song they are singing about. A supernatural statue that can mind-control you and blow you up.
• Michael Jackson's "Maestro" is a character invented for the "Ghosts" short film/music video hybrid, and the BTS video confirms this. Plus I don't... think MJ was a supernatural entity who lives alone in a haunted mansion.
• A-Ha's Take On Me contains an isolated multi-music video story (albeit only by two) with the comic book character coming to life and in "The Sun Always Shines On T.V." needing to return back to his comic book world.
• Lastly, the superheroine/spy protagonist of Spears's Toxic spans a continuity of three videos. Toxic, Womanizer, and Break The Ice with the last promising a continuation of the events, with Womanizer directly referencing a character from Toxic and Brittney/the director thinking of it as "Toxic 2". Break The Ice is said to be based on the character of Toxic. So I can say that this character follows a structure of continuity.

I don't have a direct answer for the stage persona thing because that was never what my profiles were about. Music Characters aren't limited to stage personas and as we can see from these characters, music can have their own self-isolated stories, sometimes narrated by the very music themselves. For example, characters like "Mack The Knife" from the classic song can apply to this, doubly so if these characters have feats and abilities like Jackson's Maestro. Anyways, this is my take on this. Hope this makes good on my one input though if I am allowed, I am willing to answer questions.

If I am to make one complaint however, it is that characters from musicals, characters who simply wield music, and characters who do not originate from music/music videos but feature them nonetheless (The FFXIV protagonist) should be removed from the category.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is the relevant guideline for this topic. The modification by Agnaa, Mr. Bumbo, and myself has been approved. The discussion link is here.

Stage Personas​

These rules apply exclusively to stage personas and should not be mistaken for the general editing rules.

• Characters should possess notable feats that surpass the abilities of the actors portraying them.
• They must have an original story or setting that is distinct from their real-life counterparts.
• Characters must be genuinely fictional, without blending fiction and reality. This means that real-life people with exaggerated traits or special effects, such as education or YouTube show hosts, are not allowed. The same applies to music videos of this nature.
• Characters must not have little to no impact on an actual ongoing narrative, including guest features on TV shows or be easily identifiable real-world celebrities.
  • Exceptions can be made for certain characters, like "Mayor Adam West" from Family Guy, who are important to a long-running fictional series despite being identifiable as and played by real-world actors.
• Characters whose names are the same as real actors are generally not allowed in order to maintain a clear distinction between the character and the real-world person, and to minimize the potential for confusion by blurring fiction and reality. However, exceptions may be considered for specific fictional verses where the use of real names is a deliberate creative choice that aligns with the established narrative style and does not undermine the intended separation between fiction and reality.
  • For example, in the context of a show like Family Guy or a movie like The SpongeBob Movie, the use of real names may be acceptable due to the satirical or comedic nature of the storytelling.
  • However, in the case of WWE or similar contexts, stricter scrutiny would be applied to ensure a proper separation between the fictional characters and the real actors.
• Characters associated with extreme controversy or prone to significant debate may become disqualified. This criterion broadens the scope to include characters tied to controversial public figures, ensuring that the narrative remains free from excessive controversy that could overshadow the intended fictional elements. Each case will undergo a comprehensive evaluation based on its unique merits, considering the specific circumstances and a range of perspectives and factors. The evaluation process will be conducted on a case-by-case basis, ensuring a thorough assessment of each individual situation.
  • For instance, public figures like Logan Paul or Donald Trump, whose presence may generate substantial debate and potential negative impact on the narrative will not be allowed to be added.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For the ones I have created, I can say that they do not fall under "stage persona" categories.

• Leroy Brown is not the singer himself, but a character he is singing about as he is singing about him in a narrative context. He is the protagonist of a cautionary tale. The same for Jim Walker.
• The same should go for They Might Be Giants' Statue as it is the antagonist of the song they are singing about. A supernatural statue that can mind-control you and blow you up.
• Michael Jackson's "Maestro" is a character invented for the "Ghosts" short film/music video hybrid, and the BTS video confirms this. Plus I don't... think MJ was a supernatural entity who lives alone in a haunted mansion.
• A-Ha's Take On Me contains an isolated multi-music video story (albeit only by two) with the comic book character coming to life and in "The Sun Always Shines On T.V." needing to return back to his comic book world.
• Lastly, the superheroine/spy protagonist of Spears's Toxic spans a continuity of three videos. Toxic, Womanizer, and Break The Ice with the last promising a continuation of the events, with Womanizer directly referencing a character from Toxic and Brittney/the director thinking of it as "Toxic 2". Break The Ice is said to be based on the character of Toxic. So I can say that this character follows a structure of continuity.

I don't have a direct answer for the stage persona thing because that was never what my profiles were about. Music Characters aren't limited to stage personas and as we can see from these characters, music can have their own self-isolated stories, sometimes narrated by the very music themselves. For example, characters like "Mack The Knife" from the classic song can apply to this, doubly so if these characters have feats and abilities like Jackson's Maestro. Anyways, this is my take on this. Hope this makes good on my one input though if I am allowed, I am willing to answer questions.

Thank you for trying to help out, there may still be other concerns, and you may follow the thread, but of course I suppose you may only post if being asked some direct questions for clarifications. I will mostly comment on ones I have some knowledge on.

I think Maestro might be a bit too short lived since they only lasted one music video. And while he is an original character, the same thing could be said for Darryl from the Bad music video (Minus that character was featless where as Maestro has more fictional stuff). So while it is an original character and not just a stage persona, I think lasting a single video might limit it. Most of his videos pretty much are like short movies that just star personas of himself, but of course a few such as the Ghost as well as Captain EO. But individually they seem a bit too short.

I suppose Toxic might be fine since it's more continuity oriented.

Though, looking at history, I thought you were also the creator of the Cry Baby profile. That's another one of the few I was thinking about maybe being more continuity heavy and thus fine to stay. Like what you said for Toxic, the continuity consists of three albums (Albeit music videos for the rest of the 3rd album and later a film for Portals are being worked on). But she is an original character from a fantasy setting, is identified as part of a fictional race known as Empaths, has a multitude of supernatural powers and abilities, and of course the death and resurrection plot are things that clearly make her distinguishable from real life. So I do think that one could stay even if some feats might need proper calculations.

And yes, the list Immortal Dread posted is also looking good.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For the record: I don't personally agree with these pages existing. I've spoken on it at length in the past. I don't think elements of fiction in a music video depicting the singer should qualify us to make a page for that singer.

Just wished to make that known- my stance hasn't changed, the wiki's has.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Thank you for trying to help out, there may still be other concerns, and you may follow the thread, but of course I suppose you may only post if being asked some direct questions for clarifications. I will mostly comment on ones I have some knowledge on.

I think Maestro might be a bit too short lived since they only lasted one music video. And while he is an original character, the same thing could be said for Darryl from the Bad music video (Minus that character was featless where as Maestro has more fictional stuff). So while it is an original character and not just a stage persona, I think lasting a single video might limit it. Most of his videos pretty much are like short movies that just star personas of himself, but of course a few such as the Ghost as well as Captain EO. But individually they seem a bit too short.

I would be fine if this would be the case. I have found Captain EO and Maestro to be a bit more founded due to the fact that they are short films/attraction for Disneyland, but I would put up no resistance if everyone came to a consensus that they did not fit.

Though, looking at history, I thought you were also the creator of the Cry Baby profile. That's another one of the few I was thinking about maybe being more continuity heavy and thus fine to stay. Like what you said for Toxic, the continuity consists of three albums (Albeit music videos for the rest of the 3rd album and later a film for Portals are being worked on). But she is an original character from a fantasy setting, is identified as part of a fictional race known as Empaths, has a multitude of supernatural powers and abilities, and of course the death and resurrection plot are things that clearly make her distinguishable from real life. So I do think that one could stay even if some feats might need proper calculations.

Yes, I forgot about Cry Baby, but I am the maker of her profile. She has a very expansive continuity and a distinct enough difference between fiction and reality so I am confident in her ability to stay. Though her feats do require calculations and I have posted some in the Calculations Request Thread.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will leave the above posts up, but for everyone below: do remember that this is a staff only post, and regular members may only post with the explicit permission of a qualified staff member (thread moderators, admins, and bureaucrats). Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record: I don't personally agree with these pages existing. I've spoken on it at length in the past. I don't think elements of fiction in a music video depicting the singer should qualify us to make a page for that singer.

I agree with this.

Do you have any suggestions for potentially necessary adjustments of our current rules, ImmortalDread (and other staff members)?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If the matter is to be revisited, I still think that

• Too close a likeness to the real world individual
• Using their real name (or some slight corruption of it, such as shortening a name to an initial or adding titles like "The Rock" or "Stone Cold" to a stage name)

are good compromise grounds for deletion.

 

[Qawsedf234]

inappropriate to let real world, non-fighting-oriented, celebrities try to kill each other

All those things linked aren't about a music artist, but a music video character or a VOLCAID character. It would be one thing if there was a composite Adam Levine profile but I'm no seeing anything like that.

Though the ones where it's just the singer but animated like John Lennon I can see removing.

susceptible to legal suits that can completely shut down our community.

Even if they didn't like it, a C&D would have to be issued first and something like Celebrity Deathmatch which is far more crass than our stuff lasted for six years with legal issue.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

@Antvasima What should we do here?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima What should we do here?

Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima What should we do here?

Bump.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Think we're still deciding which ones should stay and which ones should go.

Also, I do agree with Bambu's reasons about stage personas that we do need better than generic reasons to keep profiles (A generic they have fictional elements combined with superhuman feats) probably would not suffice. Though Immortal Dread's quote listed also basically reaches the guidelines but original backstories from original settings of a continuity might be sufficient in determining what is allowed and such.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Think we're still deciding which ones should stay and which ones should go.

Also, I do agree with Bambu's reasons about stage personas that we do need better than generic reasons to keep profiles (A generic they have fictional elements combined with superhuman feats) probably would not suffice. Though Immortal Dread's quote listed also basically reaches the guidelines but original backstories from original settings of a continuity might be sufficient in determining what is allowed and such.

Where's the debate, currently?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Think we're still deciding which ones should stay and which ones should go.

Also, I do agree with Bambu's reasons about stage personas that we do need better than generic reasons to keep profiles (A generic they have fictional elements combined with superhuman feats) probably would not suffice. Though Immortal Dread's quote listed also basically reaches the guidelines but original backstories from original settings of a continuity might be sufficient in determining what is allowed and such.

Where's the debate, currently?

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It seems there are questions about Leroy Brown that Qawsed brought up valid concerns for. Maestro may be a bit too short lived, but it looks like Toxic might be fine to stay based on MaidRips' reason. Cry Baby seems fine to stay for other reasons.

Though Bambu also makes points that there should be more elaborate reasons as just having a few simple fictional elements might not be enough. But there should be some reasonable originality in the character as well as enough continuity/lore stuff to qualify to be a profile here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It seems there are questions about Leroy Brown that Qawsed brought up valid concerns for. Maestro may be a bit too short lived, but it looks like Toxic might be fine to stay based on MaidRips' reason. Cry Baby seems fine to stay for other reasons.

Though Bambu also makes points that there should be more elaborate reasons as just having a few simple fictional elements might not be enough. But there should be some reasonable originality in the character as well as enough continuity/lore stuff to qualify to be a profile here.

@Mr._Bambu What should we do here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Mr._Bambu What should we do here?

More staff consensus if possible.

I'd need to look into those specific examples to speak on them, and I am currently sick and resting. I remember disagreeing with the validity of Toxic's Brittney Spears but will check it again later.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

More staff consensus if possible.

I'd need to look into those specific examples to speak on them, and I am currently sick and resting. I remember disagreeing with the validity of Toxic's Brittney Spears but will check it again later.

Yes, please rest well.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

More staff consensus if possible.

I'd need to look into those specific examples to speak on them, and I am currently sick and resting. I remember disagreeing with the validity of Toxic's Brittney Spears but will check it again later.

@Mr._Bambu Are you available yet?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, sure. Looking over it:

• Brittney Spears ought not be allowed, she appears to just be Brittney Spears filling several roles. No specifically established callbacks are made or anything like that. It's just her.
• The comic character from Take On Me does re-appear in the stated video but it's barely even a token appearance. Hard to suggest it is a consistently recognized character. I'll allow it for now.
• Neither Leroy Brown nor the Statue meet our criteria for consistency (that being appearing in multiple works). With such a small sample to work with, it would be against other standards to possess a page on them.

I don't know the length of the Michael Jackson thing so I suppose I'll get to that later. Take On Me guy is fine, the others seem at the very least questionable and at worst downright not permissible.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regarding this: Ant has said that he did not understand what was put into play in the past regarding personas of celebrities, and had wanted those using their real name to be removed. Am I to understand that this ought to be put into effect? The alternative was sort of slid into the conversation after discussion. @Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Bambu's evaluations here seem good to apply.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Regarding this: Ant has said that he did not understand what was put into play in the past regarding personas of celebrities, and had wanted those using their real name to be removed. Am I to understand that this ought to be put into effect? The alternative was sort of slid into the conversation after discussion. @Antvasima

I think that Bambu's evaluations here seem good to apply.

What do I need to do?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We need to get a somewhat reliable list of verses relying on stage personas- music verses, WWE (the original verse that sparked that conversation a few months ago), etc. Afterwards, to more accurately fit what was originally agreed upon, we need to remove pages that share a name with the actual real person (or are merely a slight corruption on their real-world name: for example, Stone Cold Steve Austin being Steve Austin, or Marky-Mark being Mark Wahlberg).

It may be worthwhile, however, before we do all of that, to contact notable voices in the last thread to see if this is all still the consensus, I'm bringing it up again because I was reminded that it was revisited but never applied. As for this thread, I have yet to look into the Michael Jackson short film enough to watch it, but from what I'm reading online it should be basically fine: it is a musical rendition of a short story written in collaboration with Stephen King.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It may be worthwhile, however, before we do all of that, to contact notable voices in the last thread to see if this is all still the consensus

Who do I tag?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It would probably be better to create a new thread on the subject, actually (and I just wanted to bring it up now to see if Ant had followed the situation), but I'll ping them here for now and see if they'd want a deeper discussion.

From the old thread (I can ping them fine, I will leave neutral voices alone):

• @DarkDragonMedeus voiced neutrality towards specifically WWE but drew a line at Who Killed Markiplier being deleted. This should currently be acceptable per our agreed upon standards, no contest there.
• @KingTempest, in response to the statement "-Characters must have an original story or setting, one that isn't just a reflection of their real life." said, briefly, "like any page", which does not clearly show which side of the line he falls upon, since this bit would erase characters who are playing dramatized variants of themselves (John Cena, Steve Austin, and so on). Others "echoed his statements" but I don't consider those to be notable.
• @Agnaa voiced many views on the topic and should probably weigh in here, too, if he isn't too busy with his endless wave of threads.
• @Deagonx spoke on that thread at least more than the extent of saying "I agree with X" and may be considered a notable enough individual to ping for it.

For those being pinged: this thread is tangential to previous stage persona threads, and particularly deals with musical verses, however discussion came to pass here about past errors in applying current stage persona rules. All of you voiced a notable opinion on the last thread here, I'd like to know if you have any particular thoughts on the subject. Particularly, since what was done for WWE does not appear to have actually been put through (as most of you appear to have agreed with the deletions listed here, only protesting John Cena due to extreme story relevance, even though most of those profiles up for deletion were not, in fact, deleted).

The rules being cited can be found in our Editing Rules under Stage Personas.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As an update, having gone through the WWE verse right now:

Deletion:

• Randy Orton (This is just his real name, he has no particular supernatural elements to his 'character'; he has even said that his WWE character is just him "times ten")
• Johnny Gargano (Real name, it definitely meshes into the real world because when his wife is also wrestling with him and their real-world marriage is part of the 'mythos')
• Steve Austin (Was argued to be separate enough but his title "Steve Austin" is so prevalent that his Wikipedia page is just "Stone Cold Steve Austin"; he is called this in literally every media he is a part of, including advertisements and movies)
• Jay White (Was argued to be separate from his real world name, Jamie White- this is self-evidently silly)

Tenuous:

• AJ Styles (Lacks a page currently but is listed on the verse page)

As said, if this warrants its own thread, that would probably be wise to pursue, this is just a topic that was discussed here. I realize it sorta sidelines this thread's intended purpose a bit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not too knowledgeable on Brittney Spears to comment. But if that's intended to just be Brittney playing a super spy I can see why it might need to be deleted.

Take On Me guy is probably fine then.

Leroy Brown and Statue both looked marked for deletion yeah.

Maestro might be fine then in that case if Stephen King was involved in the writing.

The proposals for Bambu's take on the WWE profiles also looks like something I agree to. Though I believe this thread was more so focused on musical personas, though the policies should also be similar to our policy on WWE and YouTubers (Especially if musicians are technically YouTubers themselves).

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I got permission from Bambu to post here

I wanted to ask about a unique case of a celebrity persona, that being Nicolas Cage from Dead By Daylight. He shares a likeness and name with his IRL counterpart, as well as being an actor both in and out of verse (though Nick Cage is a stage name, his real name is Nicolas Coppola, which isn't used in DBD)

In the game, Nick's role in the story as a Survivor is to be hunted down and killed in gruesome ways, so I don't think the idea of him being harmed or killed in Vs Threads should be an issue, as he's already showed to do this in canon. This version of his character also has supernatural powers and has notable backstory differences than his IRL counterpart

Where would Nick stand under the new regulations? A broader question would be; Does this still apply to explicitly fictional/supernatural celebrity personas?

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu and Medeus seem to make sense here.

 

[Flashlight237]

This part just seems like paranoid scaremongering to me...


But I don't think that stage persona profiles should really be present on the wiki. I agree with DDM pretty much.

Bro... You do not want to know what UMG is capable of doing. They're probably more up their arses about copyright than Disney is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I got permission from Bambu to post here

I wanted to ask about a unique case of a celebrity persona, that being Nicolas Cage from Dead By Daylight. He shares a likeness and name with his IRL counterpart, as well as being an actor both in and out of verse (though Nick Cage is a stage name, his real name is Nicolas Coppola, which isn't used in DBD)

In the game, Nick's role in the story as a Survivor is to be hunted down and killed in gruesome ways, so I don't think the idea of him being harmed or killed in Vs Threads should be an issue, as he's already showed to do this in canon. This version of his character also has supernatural powers and has notable backstory differences than his IRL counterpart

Where would Nick stand under the new regulations? A broader question would be; Does this still apply to explicitly fictional/supernatural celebrity personas?

In the original discussions, we tackled the idea of Adam West from Family Guy, and I think Nicholas Cage follows a similar line of reasoning. A primary distinction, noted in our rules, is whether we'd consider Nicholas Cage (Dead By Daylight) to be impactful on the story he is in, that being Dead by Daylight: from what I know of the game, he probably isn't. So while I think this is a hazy situation, I'd lean towards Nicholas Cage not being allowed per our current rules.