MUI goku upgrade (manga)

[LeSupremeKing1]

Mui Goku in the manga should've had these abilities for a while, so i'll just make a crt for it now
Moro arc MUI key should have:
Greater Reactive Power level (The bodies of users of ultra instinct on Goku's level automatically gets stronger as necessary)
Granolah Arc MUI Goku's key needs to be revised a little. His resistance to Information Analysis is given of the basis of him not being able to perceive any vital points of Goku's. That needs to be edited seeing as Goku notes that ultra instinct shouldn't have any weaknesses at all, and if anything his training lacking seeing as he's not used to using ultra instinct in his super saiyan forms. This shouldn't be full blown either, seeing as his accuracy drops over time.
So I would propose the following:
Limited Resistance to Information Analysis and Pressure Point Strikes (Ultra instinct shouldn't have any weaknesses at all and Granolah cannot perceive any weakness of Goku in MUI, however his accuracy drops over time, leading to his vital points being revealed and able to be perceived and hit)

And of course, these abilities should transfer over to people like Whis, Angel Moro, Merus, and Grand Priest (if he has a manga profile).

 

[Vizer04]

I agree with this

 

[God900]

Seems legit I agree

 

[StekFence]

Agreed

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Agreed. We should also while we're at it change the justification for Granolah's AP for defeating Perfected UI Goku, as the only reason the managed to do it by catching Goku off guard while his accurcy was falling. Goku confirms it in Chapter 76 as well when he deals with Granolah in SSB saying he won't fall to Granolah's trick twice

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Agreed. We should also while we're at it change the justification for Granolah's AP for defeating Perfected UI Goku, as the only reason the managed to do it by catching Goku off guard while his accurcy was falling. Goku confirms it in Chapter 76 as well when he deals with Granolah in SSB saying he won't fall to Granolah's trick twice

Yeah Granolah's justifcation for multi-galaxy needs to be changed almost completely. Toyotaro's statement for granolah being the strongest in the universe for the story was contradicted recently by Gas's new wish and fight with granolah.

So if I were to create a separate CRT for that, I would revise the key to be Multi-Galaxy level (His weaker clone fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue goku whilst he was using Ultra Instinct. Capable of beating Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta easily, eventually overpowered Vegeta's Ultra Ego form.)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You should probably use Imgur scans.

Spoiler: Abilities

Greater Reactive Power level (Users of the perfected Ultra Instinct ability reactively strengthen their bodies during combat to compensate for virtually any threat, as demonstrated by Goku and Moro and confirmed by Whis)

Resistance to X-Ray Vision and Information Analysis (According to Goku, the perfected Ultra Instinct ability should present no weaknesses, which was later somewhat vindicated when his vital points became invisible to Granolah after transforming up until his stamina and accuracy took a dive)

Just an F.Y.I.: He should not have Resistance to Pressure Point Strikes, as he is still susceptible to them. The only reason Granolah couldn't pull them off until the end of their battle was because he simply could not see them. Once he could see them, he struck them.

Also, that would be Resistance to X-Ray Vision as well, considering Granolah's ability is X-Ray Vision.

 

[Rez]

Goku already has resistance to information analysis and yeah null is right he will not receive any resistance to pressure point strikes

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

You should probably use Imgur scans.

Spoiler: Abilities

Greater Reactive Power level (Users of the perfected Ultra Instinct ability reactively strengthen their bodies during combat to compensate for virtually any threat, as demonstrated by Goku and Moro and confirmed by Whis)

Resistance to X-Ray Vision and Information Analysis (According to Goku, the perfected Ultra Instinct ability should present no weaknesses, which was later somewhat vindicated when his vital points became invisible to Granolah after transforming up until his stamina and accuracy took a dive)

Just an F.Y.I.: He should not have Resistance to Pressure Point Strikes, as he is still susceptible to them. The only reason Granolah couldn't pull them off until the end of their battle was because he simply could not see them. Once he could see them, he struck them.

Also, that would be Resistance to X-Ray Vision as well, considering Granolah's ability is X-Ray Vision.

Regarding the pressure points strikes thing, in MUI he should have no weaknesses at all. It's not just simply off of the fact he cannot see them, although that is a factor. And then obviously they ended up revealed once more because his accuracy dropped.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku admitted that his training was lacking.

 

[StekFence]

But the points were there the whole time. So people who don’t need to look for pressure points in order to strike them should be fine right?

Regarding the pressure points strikes thing, in MUI he should have no weaknesses at all. It's not just simply off of the fact he cannot see them, although that is a factor. And then obviously they ended up revealed once more because his accuracy dropped.

 

[Rez]

But the points were there the whole time. So people who don’t need to look for pressure points in order to strike them should be fine right?

Yeah it's just a resistance to information analysis which Goku already has

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Goku admitted that his training was lacking.

yeah and then clarifies he's vulnerable only because he's not used to using ultra instinct in super saiyan forms.

But the points were there the whole time. So people who don’t need to look for pressure points in order to strike them should be fine right?

in mui? It's not just a matter of them not being able to be seen, they should have no weaknesses at all. Thats why a limited resistance/immunity is being proposed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah Granolah's justifcation for multi-galaxy needs to be changed almost completely. Toyotaro's statement for granolah being the strongest in the universe for the story was contradicted recently by Gas's new wish and fight with granolah.

His statement was made before Gas made the wish, so it's alright for the time it was made

So if I were to create a separate CRT for that, I would revise the key to be Multi-Galaxy level (His weaker clone fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue goku whilst he was using Ultra Instinct. Capable of beating Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta easily, eventually overpowered Vegeta's Ultra Ego form.)

Vegeta's Ultra Ego form was weakening because Vegeta took a lot of unnecessary damage, which eventually left him with no stamina left

 

[SirAlex09]

I am against greater RPL.
It is certainly the case for the Anime but in the manga the panel meant to say that it focuses the users Ki automatically in any attacked area to block the incoming attack without Goku having to do it himself. So basically an automatic Ki block. We don't have enough evidence for greater RPL

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I am against greater RPL.
It is certainly the case for the Anime but in the manga the panel meant to say that it focuses the users Ki automatically in any attacked area to block the incoming attack without Goku having to do it himself. So basically an automatic Ki block. We don't have enough evidence for greater RPL

Its not just the case of "an automatic ki block". We see that the areas Moro's body is getting hit/needs to get stronger is literally physically getting bulkier, and he was growing as well. Its not just goku or moro putting up a ki barrier.

So yes, is definitely them getting physically stronger.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

are there any staff members knowledgeable on the dbs manga that we should call in?

 

[Vietthai96]

1. No to Greater RPL, it is already discussed way before, so no.
2. No to resistance/immunity to Pressure Point, like lmao, Pressure Point is a strike at vital part on the body, which is biological aspect, if when Goku transforms into UI he doesn't have any vital point thay mean UI also transform his biological aspect, which in turn even if his accuracy drop, his body in should still be the same, he will not be struck with a vital strike. I blame Toyotaro worst writting skills for this part

At best it is Immunity to Information Analysis

 

[Rez]

At best it is Immunity to Information Analysis

Resistance* and Goku already has it

 

[Vietthai96]

Resistance* and Goku already has it

Yes, but Immunity still =/= Resistance, that why i said at best

 

[Kin201]

Granolah can't perceive any openings because Goku's body moves on its own and dodges the vital strikes. His vital spots are still there.

 

[Kin201]

Immunity Pressure Point Strikes

That is because Goku won't be hit anymore given that he activates the ability that allows him to automatically dodge every single attack.

However; if said attacks manage to hit him in his vital spots (let us say because they are too fast that he can't react to them even with MUI), he will still succumb. So with that said, he doesn't have immunity to Pressure Point Strikes because Granolah will technically never hit him in his vitals until MUI drops accuracy.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

1. No to Greater RPL, it is already discussed way before, so no.

Why doesn’t greater RPL work? Saying it’s been discussed before doesn’t dismiss it.. so many things have changed after being rediscussed on the wiki.

2. No to resistance/immunity to Pressure Point, like lmao, Pressure Point is a strike at vital part on the body, which is biological aspect, if when Goku transforms into UI he doesn't have any vital point thay mean UI also transform his biological aspect, which in turn even if his accuracy drop, his body in should still be the same, he will not be struck with a vital strike. I blame Toyotaro worst writting skills for this part

At best it is Immunity to Information Analysis

Yes, in ui, he has no weaknesses at all. It’s not that it’s imperceivable, Goku elaborates verbatim that ultra instinct should have no weaknesses at all. Meaning in his perfected form, there should be no pressure points to hit. And his accuracy dropping, in conjunction with the fact Goku says himself he has cannot maintain the ultra instinct state for long, implies that his abilities within mui deteriorate.
Which is why Granolah says “I knew I would be able to find a pressure point eventually since your accuracy drops”.

That is because Goku won't be hit anymore given that he activates the ability that allows him to automatically dodge every single attack.

However; if said attacks manage to hit him in his vital spots (let us say because they are too fast that he can't react to them even with MUI), he will still succumb. So with that said, he doesn't have immunity to Pressure Point Strikes because Granolah will technically never hit him in his vitals until MUI drops accuracy.

I’m not giving him immunity to PP because he can dodge them. Please read above. It is only given because UI users should have no weaknesses to be hit. And Granolah eventually being able to hit Goku’s implies it’s limited, which is why I made a limited note, because eventually pressure points are able to be hit eventually only after his form deteriorates. It’s not that “oh well Granolah can’t see them because he’s dodging lmao”.

I think most of the refutations to the argument I presented mostly comes from a misinterpretation of my reasoning, intentionally or not.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Why doesn’t greater RPL work? Saying it’s been discussed before doesn’t dismiss it.. so many things have changed after being rediscussed on the wiki.

why is it different than others RPL?

 

[AKM sama]

Greater Reactive Power level (The bodies of users of ultra instinct on Goku's level automatically gets stronger as necessary)

There is no such thing as "greater RPL". It's just RPL. How it functions can be explained in the parenthesis. Although, the first statement of Whis is referring to Instictive Reaction, not RPL. Just like how the body moves on its own to avoid any potential attack, it gets sturdy on its own too to not get damaged. Nothing but a momentary increase in durability of a particular location on body because of Ultra Instinct, but it is still within the confines of the user's own strength.

 

[Vietthai96]

Why doesn’t greater RPL work? Saying it’s been discussed before doesn’t dismiss it.. so many things have changed after being rediscussed on the wiki.

Yes, in ui, he has no weaknesses at all. It’s not that it’s imperceivable, Goku elaborates verbatim that ultra instinct should have no weaknesses at all. Meaning in his perfected form, there should be no pressure points to hit. And his accuracy dropping, in conjunction with the fact Goku says himself he has cannot maintain the ultra instinct state for long, implies that his abilities within mui deteriorate.
Which is why Granolah says “I knew I would be able to find a pressure point eventually since your accuracy drops”.

I’m not giving him immunity to PP because he can dodge them. Please read above. It is only given because UI users should have no weaknesses to be hit. And Granolah eventually being able to hit Goku’s implies it’s limited, which is why I made a limited note, because eventually pressure points are able to be hit eventually only after his form deteriorates. It’s not that “oh well Granolah can’t see them because he’s dodging lmao”.

I think most of the refutations to the argument I presented mostly comes from a misinterpretation of my reasoning, intentionally or not.

1. I'm one who debunk the entire notion of Reactive Power Level from that feat, it is just a high level of Instinctive Reaction, back in the thread debate with this people even want to give Stats Amp because of this feat
2. ?????, i'm literally debunk why it should not a limited to PP, pressure point aim at body vital part, which is biological aspect of the body, if UI doesn't have any weakness to strike why dropping in accuracy even matter because he still in UI, and it will give his biological body no vital point to strike, thus pressure point is useless. I never imply you give Immunity to PP because he can dodge but because his UI have no weakness, but you also need to read Pressure Point page, it is aim at body vital part, if UI make Goku have no weakness, mean it also modified his biological body to the point it have no vital part, mean that it doesn't matter if the accuracy is high or low, as long as he in UI form, he can't be pressure point striked

Pressure points are a concept in many Eastern martial arts, referring to special parts of the body that, when struck, can cause intense pain, paralysis, and potentially even death, among many other possible effects, some of which are more beneficial.

Thus it freaking contradicted itself when Goku said it have no weakness then later his accuracy drop and somehow it have vital part to strike now lol

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

There is no such thing as "greater RPL". It's just RPL. How it functions can be explained in the parenthesis. Although, the first statement of Whis is referring to Instictive Reaction, not RPL. Just like how the body moves on its own to avoid any potential attack, it gets sturdy on its own too to not get damaged. Nothing but a momentary increase in durability of a particular location on body because of Ultra Instinct, but it is still within the confines of the user's own strength.

Yeah I just wanted this ability noted in his MUI key, since it’s not mentioned at all on his profile, because it’s different from the reactive power level given to normal saiyans. And I don’t think it’s just a momentary increase, with Moro, he was actually getting stronger and bulkier, (which should be noted on his profile, but for whatever reason isn’t). and goku obviously has the same ability, the only difference is that Goku’s body is honed to withstand that power whilst Moro’s isn’t, which is the explanation given to us as to why Moro swells in power, and eventually attempted to fuse with the planet in order to control this power, whilst Goku is left perfectly fine. I’ll post the scans for this as well.


Here and Here.

1. I'm one who debunk the entire notion of Reactive Power Level from that feat, it is just a high level of Instinctive Reaction, back in the thread debate with this people even want to give Stats Amp because of this feat

Cool but I wasn’t asking for who debunked it. I’m asking for why is it not considered valid.

2. ?????, i'm literally debunk why it should not a limited to PP, pressure point aim at body vital part, which is biological aspect of the body, if UI doesn't have any weakness to strike why dropping in accuracy even matter because he still in UI, and it will give his biological body no vital point to strike, thus pressure point is useless. I never imply you give Immunity to PP because he can dodge but because his UI have no weakness, but you also need to read Pressure Point page, it is aim at body vital part, if UI make Goku have no weakness, mean it also modified his biological body to the point it have no vital part, mean that it doesn't matter if the accuracy is high or low, as long as he in UI form, he can't be pressure point striked

Thus it freaking contradicted itself when Goku said it have no weakness then later his accuracy drop and somehow it have vital part to strike now lol

Like I said, that is very simply explained by his form deteriorating over time. We still know that obviously he has no weaknesses initially. Limited Resistance/Immunity is perfectly fine.

why is it different than others RPL?

It’s one given by MUI, not the ones all saiyans automatically have because of their biology. I wanted it listed on his mui key because it is not at all same or similar to the other one.

 

[Bernkastelll]

It’s one given by MUI, not the ones all saiyans automatically have because of their biology. I wanted it listed on his mui key because it is not at all same or similar to the other one.

All DB characters can increase the durability of their body with Ki, Ultra Instinct just makes it via sheer instinctive reactions to prevent damage

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

All DB characters can increase the durability of their body with Ki, Ultra Instinct just makes it via sheer instinctive reactions to prevent damage

That’s statistics amplification via ki control. Different from ultra instinct’s reactive power level not only increasing ki, but making you bulkier and stronger, and in Moro’s case, can overflow you with power to the point you explode. On top of this being passive, it just makes more sense for it to be reactive power level.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

bump

 

[AKM sama]

I'm not caught up with the recent chapters of the manga. Besides my earlier comment I can't exactly input on anything else.
Maybe @DarkDragonMedeus and @Damage3245 might be able to help.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Limited Immunity" should be reworded as Resistance as Null said, but makes sense with the provided Imgur scans.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

"Limited Immunity" should be reworded as Resistance as Null said, but makes sense with the provided Imgur scans.

k. is everything else fine?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Bump

 

[Tarang123]

Granolah can't perceive any openings because Goku's body moves on its own and dodges the vital strikes. His vital spots are still there.

That’s…not what happened. He couldn’t see any openings at all. It wasn’t due to goku dodging anything

 

[Vietthai96]

I totally forgot about this thread.
Anyway, Greater RPL is a no, Limited Immunity to Pressure Point is a no. At best we could have Immunity to Information Analysis

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I totally forgot about this thread.
Anyway, Greater RPL is a no, Limited Immunity to Pressure Point is a no. At best we could have Immunity to Information Analysis

Greater RPL you haven’t explained why it was wrong, so idrc if you disagree with it. AKM was the only person who responded to greater RPL and I already gave my refutation on that so I’m waiting for him to respond.

The refutation for “resistance on pressure points strikes” you gave is dismissed by the fact the form deteriorates over time so I’m not too worried about that point.

 

[Vietthai96]

Greater RPL you haven’t explained why it was wrong, so idrc if you disagree with it. AKM was the only person who responded to greater RPL and I already gave my refutation on that so I’m waiting for him to respond.

I hate the fact that i need to goes over this point again. Goku UI feat is just a higher Instinctive Reaction, as his body instinctively responses to sneak attack, hardening his body to protect, nothing imply he grow stronger over time. Moro on the other hand, absorbed Merus angelic power, he body just responses to that power, and even then he can't contain it, again, you cherrypkcing some certain text to give power while ignore the whole context and feat. Did both of their statistics goes up over the time, nothing imply that at all, throughout the whole fight, both Goku and Moro stay at the same level of power. So no Greater RPL

The refutation for “resistance on pressure points strikes” you gave is dismissed by the fact the form deteriorates over time so I’m not too worried about that point.

Still no immunity or resistance to pressure point

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I hate the fact that i need to goes over this point again. Goku UI feat is just a higher Instinctive Reaction, as his body instinctively responses to sneak attack, hardening his body to protect, nothing imply he grow stronger over time.

It makes him bulkier passively, yes. And obviously it’s not just durability if we look at Moro, the guy with the exact same ability, whose energy was increasing to the point his body was destroying itself.

Moro on the other hand, absorbed Merus angelic power, he body just responses to that power, and even then he can't contain it,

Let’s take a look at the fight. Initially Moro copies Merus’s angel power. He fights Goku for an brief amount of time, king enough to travel the entire world. Exploding with energy? No. Goku hits his arm. Did his entire body explode with energy? No. The specific part that was attacked by Goku grew bulkier. NOTHING ELSE. Funny thing is? At the time, Moro almost quotes exactly what Whis says, that his body gets tougher on its own.

Fight continues. The SPECIFIC PARTS OF MORO that are getting hit, that need to get stronger, are getting bulkier and bigger.

Then we get a verbatim statement from Goku blaming what was happening ON THE TECHNIQUE, and how he never trained to withstand the power on Goku. And on top of that he actually says he’s getting destroyed by Merus’s ABILITIES. Not his energy. Obviously because initially he was having a very easy time with Merus’s energy, and had no problems whatsoever.

The angel power they are referring to that is blowing up Moro, is ultra instinct. It’s very clear within this context. You are assuming power means strength within this chapter, but contextually it means the first definition presented within Oxford.

the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality.
“The power of speech”

Still no immunity or resistance to pressure point

… thank you for your further in depth input.

 

[Vietthai96]

It makes him bulkier passively, yes. And obviously it’s not just durability if we look at Moro, the guy with the exact same ability, whose energy was increasing to the point his body was destroying itself.

Let’s take a look at the fight. Initially Moro copies Merus’s angel power. He fights Goku for an brief amount of time, king enough to travel the entire world. Exploding with energy? No. Goku hits his arm. Did his entire body explode with energy? No. The specific part that was attacked by Goku grew bulkier. NOTHING ELSE. Funny thing is? At the time, Moro almost quotes exactly what Whis says, that his body gets tougher on its own.

Fight continues. The SPECIFIC PARTS OF MORO that are getting hit, that need to get stronger, are getting bulkier and bigger.

Then we get a verbatim statement from Goku blaming what was happening ON THE TECHNIQUE, and how he never trained to withstand the power on Goku. And on top of that he actually says he’s getting destroyed by Merus’s ABILITIES. Not his energy. Obviously because initially he was having a very easy time with Merus’s energy, and had no problems whatsoever.

The angel power they are referring to that is blowing up Moro, is ultra instinct. It’s very clear within this context. You are assuming power means strength within this chapter, but contextually it means the first definition presented within Oxford.

the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality.
“The power of speech”

You again nitpicking some certain words while ignore the whole context and feat again just to fit your own personal belief. You still failed to prove that both Goku and Moro attack power, striking streng and speed goes higher over time, and for the record, Ultra Instinct of Angel is not a form, just a technique, only for Goku he have his own exclusive transformation allow him to get a boost in power while make him use the UI technique