Mori Dans non-duality and Mujin Parks resistance additions

[Deagonx]

And what this DOES prove is that Moris physiology changed in paradise. Something that you denied.

He said it would grant Incorporeality, so he's not denying this.

which should include the dualities(?) ) and became literally "all powerful" which is defined as having complete, absolute, omnipotent power or capable of doing anything.

We wouldn't take "all powerful" to mean anything specific here, it's meaning is too diverse across fiction to reliably mean anything specific. We aren't going to make Mori Tier 0 for this.

Being free from the laws of nature wouldn't imply non-duality.

 

[Halkum145]

This was previously discussed and given the context was simply suggested as Acausality but was simply ignored as the others simply dropped the argument

No, it is wrong to describe it as "mere acasuality" because as stated in the scan, it is literally implied that in order to be completely independent of the laws, you need to ascend to nirvana and break free from physical bondage and become a full god. It is clearly stated that this is not a talent but a spiritual development.

This is an assumption since there is nothing to prove this in the scan. And the rest of the scan explicitly uses the place as basis.

This statement is stated exactly here. It is really unreasonable to say that this is an assumption.

Same i explained here.

The main problem I want to mention here is that what is mentioned in the scan is that being completely independent from the laws of nature is associated with being a true god. This is not acasuality, this is saying that Mori's connection with the world was completely broken because he rose to the title of true god.

And here the scan used has nothing to do with what was said, the rest is just an extrapolation and use of words never mentioned in the scan to try to justify abilities, a clear fact that "The justification has nothing to do with the scan".

This is just a narrative support. As it is clearly seen from the panels, Mori is sacrificed for the sins of the people and ascends to the sky and then, as stated, becomes a complete god.What I want to talk about here is the author's intention. I suggest that he clearly wants to tell us that Mori ascended to the sky and became a complete god, and that Mori's physiology changed by reaching nirvana, the highest spiritual form.

 

[Dereck03]

The definition of the word "spirit" is literally

I don't go looking up definitions of words all the time to use them in powerscaling.

And what this DOES prove is that Moris physiology changed in paradise. Something that you denied.
Mori became a spirit (soul) free from the laws of nature (which should include the dualities(?) ) and became literally "all powerful" which is defined as having complete, absolute, omnipotent power or capable of doing anything.
This is not a counter argument.

No, yes it is, the context simply suggests that this would be acausality rather than ND and the fact that mori is a "spirit" would not qualify for anything other than either Incorporeality or if we decide to extrapolate then AE.

He said it would grant Incorporeality, so he's not denying this.


We wouldn't take "all powerful" to mean anything specific here, it's meaning is too diverse across fiction to reliably mean anything specific. We aren't going to make Mori Tier 0 for this.

Being free from the laws of nature wouldn't imply non-duality.

Yeah, this.

You claim the "place gives him that power" yet there's no proof of that. The entire scene talks about how Mori will "become an all powerful spirit", "become a Buddha", "become a true god", "all his ties will be cut". There's a TON of statements outright telling us Mori will gain power and physical change while nothing at all even remotely implies he will just manipulate the place like a weapon or something of that sorts.

Yes there is evidence, and it is all the context that the other thread did give and there was an abestenuente discussion where I prove that everything was in place and as it was clearly specified that from that place Mori could do everything that was mentioned.

 

[Halkum145]

Being free from the laws of nature wouldn't imply non-duality.

It is clearly said that his connection with the world has been completely cut off and that he is completely independent of the laws of nature, and it is also explained that the reason for this is that he ascended to nirvana, the highest spiritual form, and became an all-powerful, complete god. What is the problem here?

 

[Deagonx]

What is the problem here?

I feel like I already explained what the problem was. The problem is that none of the information you've provided me imply non-duality. Duality is not consider a "law of nature." That most often refers to things like physics.

Higher spiritual beings and gods are often still subject to duality. You would need a concrete indication that Mori is not.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He said it would grant Incorporeality, so he's not denying this.

I'm pointing it out just because it was a big part of his reasoning in the old thread and I did post the very same scan in the same thread. Just making sure it doesn't get ignored.

We wouldn't take "all powerful" to mean anything specific here, it's meaning is too diverse across fiction to reliably mean anything specific. We aren't going to make Mori Tier 0 for this.

I'm simply pointing out that Mori did gain some higher level of power and not just enter a place that has some properties.
That being said, taking the statement at face value isn't farfetched. This isn't just some random dude calling someone all powerful because he's the top of the verse. This describes a character who essentially achieved perfection.

I don't go looking up definitions of words all the time to use them in powerscaling.

I mean, spirit isn't some super unusual secret word nobody ever heart of.

No, yes it is, the context simply suggests that this would be acausality rather than ND and the fact that mori is a "spirit" would not qualify for anything other than either Incorporeality or if we decide to extrapolate then AE.

Again, you said Mori didn't undergo any physiological change. I'm simply debunking that. Idk anything about duality shenanigans

Yes there is evidence, and it is all the context that the other thread did give and there was an abestenuente discussion where I prove that everything was in place and as it was clearly specified that from that place Mori could do everything that was mentioned.

No?

 

[Dereck03]

Higher spiritual beings and gods are often still subject to duality. You would need a concrete indication that Mori is not.

I would like to note that despite being so called, both Mori and the nirvana itself are not accepted here as having any kind of HDE or being a higher being, etc. Simply omniprecense.

Anyway, I am not here to discuss the same thing and this is the 3rd thread in which I do so and as the rule CodeCCLL mentioned about these threads says. Same arguments, same rejection.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Same arguments, same rejection.

I think it's better to focus on the Mujin part anyway. What do you think about that?

 

[Linafrfr]

Also tbf the HDE part was there until you needed some mathematical nonsense for that

 

[Halkum145]

I feel like I already explained what the problem was. The problem is that none of the information you've provided me imply non-duality. Duality is not consider a "law of nature." That most often refers to things like physics.

Higher spiritual beings and gods are often still subject to duality. You would need a concrete indication that Mori is not.

Mori is described as an all-powerful god who is completely disconnected from the world and completely independent of the laws of nature. The complete severance of its ties with the world implies and proves that it has become independent of everything in the universe.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also tbf the HDE part was there until you needed some mathematical nonsense for that

Mori not having HDE is still goofy af but I'm too lazy to go construct arguments in line with the wikis rules

 

[Halkum145]

I would like to note that despite being so called, both Mori and the nirvana itself are not accepted here as having any kind of HDE or being a higher being, etc. Simply omniprecense.

Satan literally says that he is a higher dimensional being for Xuanzag who came to protect Mori from nirvana.
edit: I have no idea how valid this is on the wiki, but I think there might at least be an argument for hde since mori gets his hands on the tablets where time and space intersect

 

[DavidTPPM]

Anyway
duality nonsense =
Mujins karma shenanigans =

 

[Dereck03]

I think it's better to focus on the Mujin part anyway. What do you think about that?

In the series, after Mujin was erased by Mori's karma ability, it is said that the prophet's wings rejected karma by Mori.Due to Mori's statement here, I think Mujin should get resistance to all his karma abilities or at least get resistance to fate and casuality manip. Mori specifically mentions that he rejects karma in general, saying that he rejects karma, not karma's ability. As additional support, these prophet wings existed in the form of Mori that broke the karmic cycle and protected Mori with their prophetic powers. It also mujin says that he can directly resist karma.

And finally, mujin's control over his mixed abilities should be a full version, not "Likely" as in the profile. It is said by Tathagata that he gave all his everything (including abilities, because it is said that he even gave the power of wisdom) and all his power to Mujin, so Mujin must be a complete version.

I'm fine with it in theory but a few questions.

1. Mori refers to the wings rejecting his Karma power, I remember reading GoH years ago but I dropped it in a time skip that happens between chapter 200 so I don't remember, does this refer only to Mori? For example, does he have any Karma different from the rest that makes him special? If not then it's ok.
2. In the end, what Mujin said was not empty talk? Or he did resisted Karma?

 

[Halkum145]

Anyway
duality nonsense =
Mujins karma shenanigans =

Every subject containing mujin is W.
Also, only the topic of nonduality has been talked about here, I welcome any comments you may have regarding mujin's abilities and resistances.

 

[Halkum145]

Mori refers to the wings rejecting his Karma power, I remember reading GoH years ago but I dropped it in a time skip that happens between chapter 200 so I don't remember, does this refer only to Mori? For example, does he have any Karma different from the rest that makes him special? If not then it's ok.

It is never stated that karma gives Mori special abilities. Also, even if it is specific to mori, mujin is just a weaker version of mori. David has already explained this elsewhere.

In the end, what Mujin said was not empty talk? Or if he resisted Karma?

Thanks to the wings of the prophet, mujin had already resisted karma

Mujins red wings appear to be a weaker, smaller version of Moris. The difference is that while Mori gained power from everyone in the verse, Mujin only gained power from Manjin and his two exes.

That's why Mori says "You too have someone who's precious to you" and "The savior from the prophecy could be you".

 

[Yeolban]

"Well... In this spiritual place, are you going to piece together the balance of the universe as an absolute existence..."

I don't know if this will change anything, but this is the literal translation of that one panel.

Satan literally says that he is a higher dimensional being for Xuanzag who came to protect Mori from nirvana.

HDE rules changed my guy, nothing to be done.

Also, I'm incredibly late?? lmao

 

[Linafrfr]

Icl I don't think calling R Mujin's ex is correct but go off ig

 

[Halkum145]

Also, I'm incredibly late?? lmao

youre fine dude

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm fine with it in theory but a few questions.

1. Mori refers to the wings rejecting his Karma power, I remember reading GoH years ago but I dropped it in a time skip that happens between chapter 200 so I don't remember, does this refer only to Mori? For example, does he have any Karma different from the rest that makes him special? If not then it's ok.

What Mori calls karma here are the red wings he has. It's a power he gained when everyone in the verse (except 5 people) gave him power to defeat Mujin.

There's also the great karmic cycle but that's something different.

1. In the end, what Mujin said was not empty talk? Or he did resisted Karma?

What Mujin says are probably empty words, but what Mori said aren't. Mujins mini karma allowed him to heal himself from karmas erasure and resisted Moris karma for several minutes

 

[Yeolban]

Icl I don't think calling R Mujin's ex is correct but go off ig

He's... reffering to P and Mansuk...

 

[Deagonx]

That being said, taking the statement at face value isn't farfetched. This isn't just some random dude calling someone all powerful because he's the top of the verse. This describes a character who essentially achieved perfection.

There's no reality where the phrase "all powerful" is going to be acceptable proof for a tier which wouldn't otherwise have been granted based on other feats or statements. So it's best if you just consider that a moot point.

Mori is described as an all-powerful god who is completely disconnected from the world and completely independent of the laws of nature. The complete severance of its ties with the world implies and proves that it has become independent of everything in the universe.

I already know that, you have told me that before. As I have said in response, this is not sufficient to prove nonduality.

 

[Halkum145]

What Mujin says are probably empty words, but what Mori said aren't.

I don't think this is true, he lists all the abilities he resisted before, like miracle and death, so he doesn't talk nonsense. Also, Mujin is not characteristically one to be idle.

 

[Linafrfr]

He's... reffering to P and Mansuk...

Ah.
A lil silly of me but calling P an ex is still objectively incorrect as they didn't break up prior to her death
Ok I'm stopping

 

[DavidTPPM]

Icl I don't think calling R Mujin's ex is correct but go off ig

I don’t think R was one of the people who helped Mujin … we see him within Moris karma and we only see the red haired and blue haired girls with manjin on Mujins

 

[Dereck03]

It is never stated that karma gives Mori special abilities. Also, even if it is specific to mori, mujin is just a weaker version of mori. David has already explained this elsewhere.

Thanks to the wings of the prophet, mujin had already resisted karma

What Mori calls karma here are the red wings he has. It's a power he gained when everyone in the verse (except 5 people) gave him power to defeat Mujin.

There's also the great karmic cycle but that's something different.

What Mujin says are probably empty words, but what Mori said aren't. Mujins mini karma allowed him to heal himself from karmas erasure and resisted Moris karma for several minutes

I would be fine with it then.

 

[Halkum145]

I already know that, you have told me that before. As I have said in response, this is not sufficient to prove nonduality.

At least I think it's not bad to give this as a "possibly" value. Unless this counts, I have lost my courage on this issue.

 

[Linafrfr]

Forgot, my bad

I don’t think R was one of the people who helped Mujin … we see him within Moris karma and we only see the red haired and blue haired girls with manjin on Mujin

 

[Yeolban]

What Mori calls karma here are the red wings he has. It's a power he gained when everyone in the verse (except 5 people) gave him power to defeat Mujin.

To be more specific, Mori's power is, in itself, called "Nirvana". "Karma" is a sub ability of it. Korean scans called Mori erasing Mujin "Karmic Hellfire"/"Karmic Retribution"/"Fires of Retribution". All the same thing as Karma, really, but, you know.

There's no reality where the phrase "all powerful" is going to be acceptable proof for a tier which wouldn't otherwise have been granted based on other feats or statements. So it's best if you just consider that a moot point.

I mean... fair. Albeit the statement does come from an omniscient character, if vsbw doesn't work like that there's nothing that can be done

 

[Halkum145]

A lil silly of me but calling P an ex is still objectively incorrect as they didn't break up prior to her death

p is my ex

 

[Halkum145]

I would be fine with it then.

thanks for everything and noted.

 

[Linafrfr]

p is my ex

Not Mujin's tho

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean... fair. Albeit the statement does come from an omniscient character, if vsbw doesn't work like that there's nothing that can be done

This is one of them silly goofy vsbw moments ngl. Like I get Mori being called all-powerful by Odin in ragnarok sucks as a statement.
But Nirvana Mori is so, SO much different. Bro
1. Achieved Nirvana
2. Is called a "True God"
3. Became a "Buddha"
4. Governs all of creation
5. Has power to "handle all of creation"
6. Is an "absolute existence"
On top of being called "all-powerful". Like you can't get more all-powerful than that.

 

[Yeolban]

I ain't really gonna argue cause I don't have the motivation (I actually didn't read up cause I'm multitasking sumn), but wouldn't the dualities the arguments are about be part of these "laws of nature"?

Don't really have the scans on me right now (I can get them if needed, I guess) but it was something like "They became the world" (about Mori and Mujin) and had lots of dualities listed. Wouldn't separation from these laws of nature mean separation from these dualities?

 

[Halkum145]

Not Mujin's tho

It actually counts as ex since mujin didn't choose to resurrect her

 

[Yeolban]

It actually counts as ex since mujin didn't choose to resurrect her

Mujin's a fake one never get a boyfriend like Mujin

 

[Halkum145]

I ain't really gonna argue cause I don't have the motivation (I actually didn't read up cause I'm multitasking sumn), but wouldn't the dualities the arguments are about be part of these "laws of nature"?

I thought about it that way too, but I guess not by wiki standards.

Don't really have the scans on me right now (I can get them if needed, I guess) but it was something like "They became the world" (about Mori and Mujin) and had lots of dualities listed. Wouldn't separation from these laws of nature mean separation from these dualities?

This seems to explain that it has these dualities physiologically.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I ain't really gonna argue cause I don't have the motivation (I actually didn't read up cause I'm multitasking sumn), but wouldn't the dualities the arguments are about be part of these "laws of nature"?

Don't really have the scans on me right now (I can get them if needed, I guess) but it was something like "They became the world" (about Mori and Mujin) and had lots of dualities listed. Wouldn't separation from these laws of nature mean separation from these dualities?

I was thinking the same. Mori and Mujin "became the world" and it listed a bunch of dualities like light and darkness. I also thought dualities should be considered laws of nature.
But I can't really argue about it because I don't know how dualities work and at this point I've said it so many times I can't go read what they actually do

 

[Halkum145]

Mujin's a fake one never get a boyfriend like Mujin

Mujin is real, and she was in love with him and after leaving me he married someone like Mujin

 

[Deagonx]

At least I think it's not bad to give this as a "possibly" value

I don't think so. None of the info provided even hints at nonduality.