More Star Wars Revisions (JUST JANGO FETT and LIGHTSABER STUFF LEFT TO DISCUSS)

[ByAsura]

It probably makes more sense scaling-wise if this were an amp.

 

[Hellbeast1]

All the Sith is clearly just acretcon of the Rule of Two's ms habits

Secondly other then the feat what proof is there Palpatine gained greater power then the Old Trilogy

 

[Eficiente]

The proof is not being bias. I don't need to show proof of him gaining greater power, that is the most reasonable assumption to make. I even pointed out the why ("The older a Force user becomes the more their knowledge, experience, etc. on the Force grows and the more powerful in it they become. While their regular physicality gets weaker.")

 

[Eficiente]

All the Sith is clearly just acretcon of the Rule of Two's ms habits

In other words

*C. He's just exaggerating and being all the Sith is not a big deal.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Well, I'm conflicted on this. On one side he does have a much better feat, but it's never stated he grew stronger at all.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Where did I claim your biased Ef?

Secondly you're making a claim that Palpatine is outright stronger so yeah you should probably give some evidence

Just saying "oh he never does big feat like that" doesn't cut it for a character who we rate mostly based on upscaling to practically everyone in the verse

Secondly the argument "oh he's older now so he's stronger" doesn't hold up when he is crippled beyond belief in this film and outright says he needs the Dyad to restore him

That's also ignoring the statement in the novel his Clone body is imperfect and unable to contain the power of the Dark Side

Thirdly how is my claiming it's a retcon of the Rule of Two anything remotely like saying he's exaggerating?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It is a good point that Palpatine lacks feats showing his full power aside from the High 6-C feat.

 

[Eficiente]

@Hellbeast1 I didn't say that you claimed me to be bias, I implied you were because I find your arguments so fallacious that no reasonable user should come up with them. Of all your last comment I see nothing that would challenge my proposal, only a lot of stuff to reply to.

Secondly you're making a claim that Palpatine is outright stronger so yeah you should probably give some evidence

No, I do not. The ones saying that he was always as strong should give the evidence.

Just saying "oh he never does big feat like that" doesn't cut it for a character who we rate mostly based on upscaling to practically everyone in the verse

What a contrived way to portray the logic of "New feat=Character most likely wasn't as strong before unless proven". The second stuff there I feel like you just put it to occupy space and make you stuff look bigger & better, why? Because it doesn't matter at all.

Secondly the argument "oh he's older now so he's stronger" doesn't hold up when he is crippled beyond belief in this film and outright says he needs the Dyad to restore him

This is just being ignorant to what I said; "The older a Force user becomes the more their knowledge, experience, etc. on the Force grows and the more powerful in it they become. While their regular physicality gets weaker." & "The dude was like a zombie and that needed to be fixed, if he made himself more powerful or not then that's irrelevant, he was restored, he didn't lie. It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body, or he could use it & he just didn't show it."

That's also ignoring the statement in the novel his Clone body is imperfect and unable to contain the power of the Dark Side

This fits what I said, if anything. Again, you are being ignorant of it; "It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body" & " And by "entirely possible" I actually meant that's most likely the case as to claim that he was just always as powerful is a baseless assumption."

If it needs to be said then "more power"=/="more physical power", he didn't go to a gym.

Thirdly how is my claiming it's a retcon of the Rule of Two anything remotely like saying he's exaggerating?

If you didn't notice, I anticipated the headcanons that would come to justicy the "all the Sith" stuff to not add any new power to him, you took option C. If the all the Sith was less poetic than what you claim it is, which makes perfect sense in context, then suddenly it is an amp. He was the most powerful Sith, now he's all the Sith, and he's fighting a character whose all the Jedi in the sense that she got amped by at least some of them. Hmmmmm, I wonder if the "all the Sith" thing was an amp, I guess we cannot just say that it was an amp because there is no evidence of it now can't we? This is sarcasm, the answer to that is what follows common sense.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'll be replying to this late but let me assure you there is so much wrong here with this comment

 

[Agnaa]

There's a thread discussing whether multiplier for destroying multiple objects is allowed, so the Palpatine upgrades will have to wait.

It looks like the current standard for this is that a multiplier for destroying multiple objects isn't allowed.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yeah, it seems so.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Ef firstly mind that attitude. Claiming I'm biased is a serious accusation you may not want to throw out there immediately with especially when there is no indication of my supposed bias. Though since you are the same bloke who threatened to resign in order to stonewall revisions I'm not surprised

Just makes you look like a dick frankly when coupled with your other assertions on my character

Secondly if you read my comments prior to this you'd see the evidence I've posted in support of my point but since you seem to need a little help:

1) Palpatine saying that the Dyad restores him (Note the crackling lightning that emerges at his fingertips when he gets the first taste)

2) This is corroborated in a scan Shadow provided above from the novelisation

3) This video contains a scan from the novelisation which mentions Sheev's body is an "imperfect vessel" and that it "couldn't last much longer", sustained only by vials "fighting a losing battle to preserve the putrid flesh"

4) Adding to this point, Palpatine's clone is deemed "painful", "a temporary one", "not enough", "broken" and outright "dying" with the Sith Eternal constantly toiling in creating bodies that might be a worthy cradle or recepticle (Hence the creation of Snoke) with nothing actually working

5) This video shows an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid who claims his scene with Kylo had the line "More then a clone, less then a man" which reinforces Palpatine is significantly lesser then he once was during this period

6) This is further reinforced whe Ian mentions the character's great frustration is that he can't call upon his power and that his journey in the film is getting back to that (Hell he even mentions he can't even summon Force Lightning through his fingers)

Now you may have issue with me using Mcdiarmid as a source but his comments I think illustrate the intent of the filmmakers in portraying Palpatine as this broken figure and it's consistent with all we know of the phantom emperor

So you've seen the evidence I've brought for Palpatine being considerably weaker in this film and you know what's funny about my reasearch?

Not a single ******* shred of evidence Palpatine, despite being grieviously damaged and trapped within a body that is barely hanging on to life, gained any considerable power offscreen after his revival in the way you claim.

This isn't like Dark Empire where Palpatine's bodies don't last long but he has measurable feats and statements that he is above his prior state. This is a character barely hanging onto life by usage of advanced technology with the endgame of possessing a worthy host.

Palpatine's damaged body does not "prove your point" because this is incomparable to a Force User's body deteriorating with age. This, if anything, is closer to Anakin's wounds at Mustafar where he noticeably lost his full potential in the Force

To make such a baseless claim as him getting stronger is being outright ignorant of the circumstances within the film and novelisation and honestly ridiculous for any user to actually engage in.

Also if anything is contrived in this conversation it is you arguing that despite having brought no evidence of your claims, you think Palaptine just grew stronger offscreen, totally ignoring the blatant evidence to the contrary by hiding behind refutations that are substantially nothing

TLDR: Sheev is not stronger in ROS, to say otherwise is ignorance and if you mean to say he's stronger offscreen actually prove it

 

[Hellbeast1]

(Sorry if it's long and messy, just got off work)

 

[Agnaa]

Since I don't have much to say on most of these revisions I'll unfollow. Let me know if anything else for me to comment on comes up.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Will do

 

[Eficiente]

@Ef firstly mind that attitude. Claiming I'm biased is a serious accusation you may not want to throw out there immediately with especially when there is no indication of my supposed bias. Though since you are the same bloke who threatened to resign in order to stonewall revisions I'm not surprised

No I'm good calling you bias, this is given your fallacious arguments and your way to ignore what I say to keep pointing out stuff that does nothing as what you ignored already acknowledges that. What's more in parts you are also acting like a rat too, I didn't threaten to resign in order to stonewall revisions, I thought the revisions were done, little care was put into them and I didn't want to contribute the wiki in something that relevant being illogical+how I considered that something that wrong would be changed eventually be changed anyway but damage the wiki in the time it lasts, it was an integrity thing that I would have still done even if I got paid for doing what I do. I explained the situation better where I brought it but, in character for you, you ignored it. But why do you even bring this up here? I was already considering rat-ish how you warped the "New feat=Character most likely wasn't as strong before unless proven"-logic into "oh he never does big feat like that", but this just beats it.

You do not need to warp things to make yours look better, you need to be responsible, pay attention and respond to things properly.

1) Palpatine saying that the Dyad restores him (Note the crackling lightning that emerges at his fingertips when he gets the first taste)
2) This is corroborated in a scan Shadow provided above from the novelisation

3) This video contains a scan from the novelisation which mentions Sheev's body is an "imperfect vessel" and that it "couldn't last much longer", sustained only by vials "fighting a losing battle to preserve the putrid flesh"

4) Adding to this point, Palpatine's clone is deemed "painful", "a temporary one", "not enough", "broken" and outright "dying" with the Sith Eternal constantly toiling in creating bodies that might be a worthy cradle or recepticle (Hence the creation of Snoke) with nothing actually working

5) This video shows an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid who claims his scene with Kylo had the line "More then a clone, less then a man" which reinforces Palpatine is significantly lesser then he once was during this period

6) This is further reinforced whe Ian mentions the character's great frustration is that he can't call upon his power and that his journey in the film is getting back to that (Hell he even mentions he can't even summon Force Lightning through his fingers)

So you've seen the evidence I've brought for Palpatine being considerably weaker in this film and you know what's funny about my reasearch?
Not a single ******* shred of evidence Palpatine, despite being grieviously damaged and trapped within a body that is barely hanging on to life, gained any considerable power offscreen after his revival in the way you claim.

This isn't like Dark Empire where Palpatine's bodies don't last long but he has measurable feats and statements that he is above his prior state. This is a character barely hanging onto life by usage of advanced technology with the endgame of possessing a worthy host.

Palpatine's damaged body does not "prove your point" because this is incomparable to a Force User's body deteriorating with age.

Yeah I already know, hence the "It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body" & "If it needs to be said then "more power"=/="more physical power", he didn't go to a gym"

I recognized he got weaker and that he may not be able to use his full power before, but that doesn't mean that full power is the same as the old one he had as he never showed anything like hat before.

This, if anything, is closer to Anakin's wounds at Mustafar where he noticeably lost his full potential in the Force

If the logistics of the verse were super consistent then this would matter, but, let's say that it does, canon Vader got stronger than Anakin and so should Sidious with his body fixed using that logic.

To make such a baseless claim as him getting stronger is being outright ignorant of the circumstances within the film and novelisation and honestly ridiculous for any user to actually engage in.

you think Palaptine just grew stronger offscreen, totally ignoring the blatant evidence to the contrary by hiding behind refutations that are substantially nothing
TLDR: Sheev is not stronger in ROS, to say otherwise is ignorance and if you mean to say he's stronger offscreen actually prove it

No, you are using leaps in logic to claim that he couldn't get stronger, when he could, and thus he did. Also things like "just grew stronger offscreen" are kinda funny given that...that is something that happens, a lot.

Also if anything is contrived in this conversation it is you arguing that despite having brought no evidence of your claims

I'm not the one that needs the evidence to say that he was always as powerful, if that needed to be said.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Firstly how am I the one acting like a rat

You're the one who started by calling me biased and totally unreasonable

Secondly you are still ignoring my evidence because of course him growing stronger despite no evidence makes complete sense

I have seriously provided three links to prove my point do I think I've provided evidence he's weaker thanks

 

[Hellbeast1]

Furthermore I have responded to your points without warping anything despite your assertion to the contrary

It is you who continue to claim he's had the potential to grow stronger and then used said potential to grow sttpnger despite the what, four sources provided?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is just argument from incredulity, smh.

>Sidious, the most powerful Sith in either continuity, shows a feat above everyone else

>People don't believe he can be that powerful and try to come up with excuses.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Btw it was said that Canon Vader lost his 20 000+ midichlorian Force potential, but that only means his potential is weaker than Anakin, not that his power is. Anyway it's no related to this Palpatine discussion.

It should also be noted that Canon Palpatine lacks feats in the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy, and so far there isn't any proof he grew stronger at all. So this feat isn't necessarily contradicted by past feats, considering the only thing we know is that he's superior to Vader, scales to Yoda and Windu (who scale to him), that's literally all.

 

[Eficiente]

This is just argument from incredulity, smh.
>Sidious, the most powerful Sith in either continuity, shows a feat above everyone else

>People don't believe he can be that powerful and try to come up with excuses.

Please do come up with something better than this, I'm tired of talking with Hellbeast1. What am I supposed to do with your comment? If I made a non serious comment I wouldn't much care about a serious response to it and I would just reply with the serious comment I should have done in the first place, with my real thoughts on the matter.

Firstly how am I the one acting like a rat

You're the one who started by calling me biased and totally unreasonable

Common misconception from certain group of people, criticism that may offend doesn't just exist in a vacuum. I said that you were acting like a rat for bringing a topic that had nothing to do with this one, and I called you bias because of your arguments and ignoring wha I said. I could categorize the quote from you above and say what I think of it but then you would just take that I said mean things to you, so

Secondly you are still ignoring my evidence because of course him growing stronger despite no evidence makes complete sense

I have seriously provided three links to prove my point do I think I've provided evidence he's weaker thanks

You are the one ignoring the evidence here, I saw your evidence, I quoted it and I pointed out why it was invalid to the matter. What I pointed out is not me ignoring your evidence, is responding to it.

Furthermore I have responded to your points without warping anything despite your assertion to the contrary

It is you who continue to claim he's had the potential to grow stronger and then used said potential to grow sttpnger despite the what, four sources provided?

Many thing were warped but there is no point in showing them, the ones who read will know.

The sources just prove that he's weaker and can't use his full power, which I already imagined was going to be the case before you even showed them and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. He could have still become more powerful in the Force without being able to use said power. This only needs 2 things to happen 1. Him not being able to use his powers, which we know is the case and 2. Him still being able to become more powerful regardless, which is also the case because this is SW and knowledge, meditating and sheer pragmatism over the Force makes one more powerful over it, heck just doing nothing does the same if you already have power (Not even talking about Rey).

 

[Hellbeast1]

Cool argument

You still have brought no evidence of your claims and somehow act as if you're entitled not to

And I'm not the only one who's bloody sick of it mate

So frankly either contribute a shred of evidence to your claims or stop wasting everyone's time with your frankly pathetic reasoning

Honestly surprised something so simple needs to be communicated to a staff member

 

[Hellbeast1]

Secondly what I warped in your comment, seriously tell me because I've talked to others and they agree you're full of it

I am honestly done with debating you until you come back with something that can prove your point

 

[Eficiente]

It's the same argument that when I started, and as already said many times I don't need evidence of him getting more powerful as the most logical thing to think is that he wasn't always as powerful.

The rest I'm gonna ignore as what I said was listened. I would maybe like to show you the stuff I said that you warped but then again, those who read will know, and it doesn't matter anyway now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't know if Eficiente's arguments are pathetic when I agree with a couple of them.

Unless... I'm pathetic D: ovo

Mostly neutral, tho, since I can see where the "no amp"-gang is coming frlm too.

 

[Hellbeast1]

You do tho

You're making the argument so back up the argument

I've provided my side and I've proven it isn't the most obvious assumption

You are literally operating under incredulity and I'm frankly tired of it and you're aggressive comments

You're already on thin ice frankly so do not say something that will justify a report

@Revan TRAITOR!

JK that's all g

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Sorry! D: ovo

Hey, first person to call me Revan, nice.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Aww glad to be the first

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Gonna throw in my 2 cents here. I can understand the arguments from both sides. However, there was literally no mention of Sidious being any stronger than he was in his prime. We are performing mental backflips here. The whole "I am all the Dark" and "I am all the Light" is equivalent to flowery language.

The whole "Vader is stronger than Anakin despite losing connection to the Force" is dumb when you realize that Anakin was inexperienced and had a bratty teen attitude. Of course his command over the Force pales in comparison to Vader, the latter is actually disciplined.

All in all, I'm leaning more to RoS Sidious being equal to prime Sidious.

 

[Eficiente]

Here's a very summarized version for those who don't feel like reading the all of the above: Given how a Force user becomes more powerful, no evidence is needed to know that Sidious most likely got more powerful. Think of all the ways that make a Force user more powerful, being unable to use powers properly due to being crippled is an impediment to become more powerful? No, the body doesn't much matter for it.

It really is as simple as "how a Force user becomes more powerful", and as such is not some excuse or overthought thing. It's how the verse works.

(This are ways a Force user becomes powerful btw: Having knowledge, meditating, experience, sometimes doing nothing, and sheer pragmatism over the Force [basically the Force user goes "Oh the Force is the way/the Dark Side is so powerful!" and that just gets compensated]. You don't need to show how powerful you become to become more powerful because that's not how SW, any verse and real life work)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Right. 2 things.

1) Prove what you say above is true.

2) Prove that Sidious was in fact stronger during his battle with Rey than he was during the Original Trilogy.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ok. So things to conclude in this thread:

• Jango Fett upgrade to Relativistic
• The Lightsaber profile
• Downgrading ship shields to High 6-C
• Maybe upgrade Palpatine to High 6-C, although probably we should wait for another thread

Never gave my thoughts on this.

I do agree with upgrading Jango. He is overall portrayed as a Jedi killer (same as Grievous, if weaker; same as Durge, if weaker, again). Killed one of Dooku's apprentice (Komari Vosa), and was chosen as the template for the clones precisely for his impressive abilities. Also, at least sub-relativistic reactions are common in-verse via dog fights on Starfighters.

I belive it was brought up that lightsabers should have a variable tier. I agree with that.

And if the original calc is flawed and High 6-C is the actual value for starships, then I agree as well.

 

[Eficiente]

Right. 2 things.
1) Prove what you say above is true.

2) Prove that Sidious was in fact stronger during his battle with Rey than he was during the Original Trilogy.

I like how this isn't a "do one or do the other" but actually a "do both". I won't, the whole premise of my point is that Sidious getting stronger doesn't need to be stated for that to be the case. If you understood my argument and you still think I need to prove that then I could show every context in disney SW of Force users getting stronger & new powers and you would still disagree with me, and I would have just lost a sh*t ton of time for nothing.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

It doesn't matter if other Force users go stronger through time, you need to prove Palpatine does through superior feats or statements. For example Canon Vader is stated superior to Anakin multiple times, that's statements. Old Obi-Wan matched Vader, who is superior to Anakin, that's feats. Right now you have shown neither feats or statements that Palpatine grew stronger.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Not sure what's difficult to understand here honestly

 

[Eficiente]

The first thing I did

• He shows a feat way above anything shown before.

Him, Yoda and Mace didn't show anything like that before. Palpatine was still the most powerful back then, if that needs to be said (it shouldn't).
Also are you sure Force users getting stronger ovr time is something that doesn't matter? That's kind of a big deal here.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Palpatine has never shown full power before, neither has Yoda nor Mace. Yoda's feats are fighting Palpatine. Windu's feats are fighting Palpatine. Palpatine's feats are fighting them and being superior to Vader. That's literally all we know.

So no, it isn't a "feat way above anything shown before", because there was no feat shown before.

 

[Eficiente]

"Has never shown full power before" as an argument is something I don't even need to explain why I disagree with. And he still has people who scale to him, Mace beat him, Yoda fought pretty well with him. They are still weaker but the point is that they do scale. Not much more needs to be said.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

They don't even have feats back then. When did Palpatine and Yoda and Windu have actual quantifiable feats?

 

[Eficiente]

"Has never shown full power before" as an argument is something I don't even need to explain why I disagree with.

Actually, I'm gonna say part of it. As I imagine you know, that full power he never show is still there if he got stronger, getting stronger just means that he just became even more powerful than before. Thus getting stronger doesn't ruin anything on him never showing full power before, that argument does nothing - not little, literally nothing.