More Star Wars Revisions (JUST JANGO FETT and LIGHTSABER STUFF LEFT TO DISCUSS)

[ByAsura]

I'm probably leaning towards agreeing. It's not as if there aren't people capable dodging blaster bolts in Star Wars, or keeping up with Force-Users. These people are generally bounty hunters and assassins as well.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Combined with the fact that Starfighters fight at at least sub-rela speeds and most pilots can react to them as well as blaster fire from them regularly, it should be clear that these kinds of reaction speeds are common in-verse.

 

[Catalyst75]

Combined with the fact that Starfighters fight at at least sub-rela speeds and most pilots can react to them as well as blaster fire from them regularly, it should be clear that these kinds of reaction speeds are common in-verse.

If I may ask, where does all the "fighters fight at sub rela" speed comes from?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Give me a moment.

But off the top of my head: Revenge of the Sith novel states them flying at sub-light speeds. Battle of Mindor also state this.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I am with Eficiente


On this regarding backscaling with Palpatine

the argument of burden of proof earlier doesn really hold up either BECAUSE the proof for him being stronger is in the feat itself which is leagues ahead of anything he has shown before.

The only counter to this argument uses false dichotomy through Evidence of Absence.

"There's no Evidence to suggest Palpatine got stronger" is a fallacy of Argument from Ignorance while the counter argument functionally works without the need for assumptions.

You can Prove this version of Palpatine is stronger by virtue of just comparing their feats. Occam's Razor.

which shifts the argument to "Prove that the Original Sidious was just as Strong as this version" and that argument relies on the key use of the word restored vs empowered which is a rather pedantic thing to focus on because it ignores alot of Nuances such as the Idea that This Palpatine had the power of the Dyad is somehow comparable to the Palpatine who was trying to create a Dyad in the first place to empower himself.

then there's the fact that there are tons of contradicting statements that would put pre ROTJ Sidious well below him aswell as the very Hierachy of our arguments being Feats>statements.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If you have statements, post them.

"Comparing their feats" there are no anti-feats either, Original Sidious upscales from Vader, he doesn't have any feats contradicting this.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, but he doesn't make Vader look like a literal ant. I don't neccesarily disagree with you or agree with @Eficiente and @Shadow, but it does seem kind of questionable for him to be just as strong as before. It's also generally better for scaling if he isn't, because Windu, Yoda and the Zillo Beast don't have feats anywhere near this level, the latter two even have feats on a similar level to lower force users.

Give me a moment.
But off the top of my head: Revenge of the Sith novel states them flying at sub-light speeds. Battle of Mindor also state this.

For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react. - Revenge of the Sith: Novelization.

"I've got it I'm gonna make it! I'm gonna..." He was interrupted by the final flip of his X-wing, which brought his nose into line with the sight of the leading edge of the spherical debris field expanding toward him at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, and Hobbie Klivian, acknowledged master of both profanity and obscenity, human and otherwise, not to mention casual vulgarities from a dozen species and hundreds of star systems, found he had nothing to say except, "Aw, nuts." - Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Literally look up "respectable fraction of lightspeed" and you'll get a ton of similar quotes from Star Wars Legends novels. Also, expanding on the first quote, here's the full exert, which implies Jedi have sub-rel reactions and have faster reflexes than Tri-fighters, which are designed to manoeuvre at similar, though lower, speeds.

• For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react. But these particular pilots were far from merely human. The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint. Tri-fighters were the Trade Federation's latest space-superiority droid. But even the electronic reflexes of the tri-fighters' droid brains were too slow for this: one of his pursuers met one of Anakin's head-on. Both vanished in a blossom of flame.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

He never fought Vader in Canon, that's not a valid argument. We only know he's stronger.

 

[ByAsura]

They haven't fought, but it's made clear that Vader isn't far inferior and would've likely surpassed Sidious.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

We don't know by how much at that time though.

 

[ByAsura]

The point is, the gap isn't astronomical by the time of RotJ.

Also, Rey was empowered by the force spirits (meaning they could be even stronger than when they were alive) of people who were almost equal to Palpatine, Luke at his strongest, and multiple Jedi Masters and Knights. Yet the two were roughtly equal, with Rey even dying.

 

[ByAsura]

I found a lightspeed feat for Jedi Knights. I'm pretty sure everyone knows about it, though.

Also, some more sub-rel stuff for starfighters.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Give me a moment.

But off the top of my head: Revenge of the Sith novel states them flying at sub-light speeds. Battle of Mindor also state this.

Isn't that novel non canon now?

 

[Hellbeast1]

I vaguely remember PowerCrunch finding a Sub Rel feat for Dooku and co

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Canon Obi-Wan reacted to laser.

 

[ByAsura]

@Hellbeast I think we were talking about Legends. Catalyst may not have been, though.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Oh my bad lol

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

The point is, the gap isn't astronomical by the time of RotJ.
Also, Rey was empowered by the force spirits (meaning they could be even stronger than when they were alive) of people who were almost equal to Palpatine, Luke at his strongest, and multiple Jedi Masters and Knights. Yet the two were roughtly equal, with Rey even dying.

She was literally amped by the 3 people that were on his lvl before ROS too lol

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

That is a good point.

Though didn't Rey stomp Palpatine? Plus Palpatine was "all the Sith" as well (although there ain't much Canon Sith)

 

[ByAsura]

She didn't stomp him, just reflect his lightning with extreme effort, something that Mace did when he was almost equal to Palpatine. Rey was even fatally injured by Palpatine. If anything, being all the Sith while Rey is all the Jedi shows they're similar in power.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Fair enough but we can't use that scene for scaling, since they both got ridiculously amped.

 

[Catalyst75]

Give me a moment.
But off the top of my head: Revenge of the Sith novel states them flying at sub-light speeds. Battle of Mindor also state this.

For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react. - Revenge of the Sith: Novelization.
"I've got it I'm gonna make it! I'm gonna..." He was interrupted by the final flip of his X-wing, which brought his nose into line with the sight of the leading edge of the spherical debris field expanding toward him at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, and Hobbie Klivian, acknowledged master of both profanity and obscenity, human and otherwise, not to mention casual vulgarities from a dozen species and hundreds of star systems, found he had nothing to say except, "Aw, nuts." - Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Literally look up "respectable fraction of lightspeed" and you'll get a ton of similar quotes from Star Wars Legends novels. Also, expanding on the first quote, here's the full exert, which implies Jedi have sub-rel reactions and have faster reflexes than Tri-fighters, which are designed to manoeuvre at similar, though lower, speeds.

• For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react. But these particular pilots were far from merely human. The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint. Tri-fighters were the Trade Federation's latest space-superiority droid. But even the electronic reflexes of the tri-fighters' droid brains were too slow for this: one of his pursuers met one of Anakin's head-on. Both vanished in a blossom of flame.

I see, though I honestly feel the films provide a more accurate physical representation. Legends novels feel like they don't understand physics at all, at times.

 

[ByAsura]

Fair enough but we can't use that scene for scaling, since they both got ridiculously amped.

Ok. I'd also like Hellbeast's opinion on this.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Apparently Palpatine was "weaker than he could be" in TROS. Although this can be interpreted as weaker than his raw potential.

 

[ByAsura]

I would like more context on the part about the second quote. The first quote directly refers to the clone when he was degrading, which was fully healed when he absorbed the dyad.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Does anyone have the novel?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

bump

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

bump

 

[Hellbeast1]

I think Shadow does

Also the novel mentions Force Lightning is hotter then the sun which is a genuine property of irl lightning

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have the novel. Ask me anything.

 

[Eficiente]

• What are the mechanics of Sidious having all the Sith living within him? I assume most Sith spirits live within him and he controls them to gain extra power, but this is apparently to much of a stretch.
• Did Sidious actually keep firing his Force Lighting at Rey when it was being reflected at him? That sure was stupid but as it was gradually annihilating his body it would be a very notable stamina feat.
• I assume Rey being all the Jedi means getting amped by all the Jedi that ever lived, or most of them, is this the case?
• I do not think that Force ghosts are as powerul as when they were alife, anything in favor or oppossing this idea?
• In the future I'm gonna make a CRT to give Legends Force users Instinctive Reactions via the Force moving their bodies for them, idk if disney characters have this but if they do, novels are a good place to find those feats.
• I'll also propose disney Force Lighting to be notably above all the other things their users can do with their AP, anything in favor or oppossing this idea would help.
• What are the mechanics and limitations of Sidious' possession? I find very wanked how the power was just added like that in his profile.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

ill try to go over most of these if i can

1) I think they have this symbiotic relationship, and house themsevles and their powers within sidious.

2) i think he kept firing it.

3) i think it means all jedi.

4) for jedi, they actually become far more powerful (lucas confirmed that spirit obi wan is more powerful than ROTJ sidious, for example, in legends). for sith, it varies for some reason.

5) idk what to tell u, but if it makes any difference, they actually need GREAT connection to the force, a great mental state, and experience to let themselves be controlled by the force like that. in disney, it seems to be less experience, and far more connection and mental state. but in legends, all 3 stand.

6) um, yes, that somewhat seems to be the case, but only sometimes. for one, yoda could sidious's lightning, but sidious was more powerful than he was.

7) he cloned his body (so its not the same body), and then possessed it with his original spirit. i assume that he can possess any body that he can overcome and overpower too

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Going to have to check the book for answers on some of these but right of the top of my hat:

"Did Sidious actually keep firing his Force Lighting at Rey when it was being reflected at him?"

Kinda, at first the Lightning gets reflected back at him, and as he tries to stop Rey blasts him with her own wave of Force power, i.e the energy of all the Jedi who ever lived flowing through her, and this not only disintegrated Sidious body but also makes him explode, presumably destroying his soul (It first describes his whole body being reduced to dust, and then describes "what was left of him" gathering into a single point and exploding in pure energy).

"I assume Rey being all the Jedi means getting amped by all the Jedi that ever lived, or most of them, is this the case?"

Yes, she achieves Oneness with the Force at the moment, with the spirits of all the Jedi who ever lived across space and time flowing through her to give her the strength she needs to destroy Palpatine once and for all.

"I'll also propose disney Force Lighting to be notably above all the other things their users can do with their AP, anything in favor or oppossing this idea would help."

There's nothing in favor of that idea. Palpatine's big Force Lightning at the Resistance Fleet was just achieved through the power of Ben and Rey's Dyad restoring him to full power. The novel does clarify that the power of Rey and Ben's bond through the Force Dyad is greater than the sum of its parts, its not something that scales to themselves normally. In fact Palpatine is undeniably far, far more powerful than either of them even in his decrepit, dying body.

"What are the mechanics and limitations of Sidious' possession? I find very wanked how the power was just added like that in his profile."

He can only possess a compatible body, like a clone of himself, and he planned on possessing Rey through that Rule of Two ritual. It is quite limited.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Wait so the Possession is the Rule of Two for the new canon?

Kinda guessed it when I heard Plagueis attempted the same but surprised

 

[Eficiente]

That's all good. Do you still think Palpatine was always as powerful? It would be a pain for me to start the matter all over again in another thread when notable users already saw my points here.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Prior to or after the Dyad?

Also it'd likewise be annoying for me to restate my old reasons again with some new ones

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wait so the Possession is the Rule of Two for the new canon?
Kinda guessed it when I heard Plagueis attempted the same but surprised

Yes.

Rule of Two in the new Disney Canon has been retconned to be as follows:

• 1) Sith Apprentice kills Sith Master
• 2) Sith Master's Spirit is absorbed into the Apprentice's body, and their separate consciousness become one. The Apprentice takes on the mantle of the old Master, whose spirit now lives on within him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's all good. Do you still think Palpatine was always as powerful? It would be a pain for me to start the matter all over again in another thread when notable users already saw my points here.

The novel presents not one shred of evidence to support your theory that Palpatine became magically stronger in The Rise of Skywalker. Throughout the whole story he is at his weakest, dying, decaying, on weak, withered body held by life-support systems and alchemy, and he is still described as having "Power unlike anything Kylo Ren had ever seen." when they first meet. And when he drains the Life Force of Ben and Rey's Dyad, he is restoring himself to his peak.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Great Scott if you think about it the rule of two is just One for All.

> presumably destroying his soul (It first describes his whole body being reduced to dust, and then describes "what was left of him" gathering into a single point and exploding in pure energy).


this was also my assumption on that line, I think we can just ask a storygroup member to clarify if we really have to.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Funnily enough this new Rule of Two draws a bit from Legends

Bane attempted to do this to Zannah so it's possible something similar occured here