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Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

Oh hey, I just had an idea for a Calc. It's probably useless as **** given who it's for but I think it would be interesting. So for the longest time Naruto used a Calc involving a giant snake lunging at something with the speed of a normal snake attack and got ridiculous KE from it. You guys think we could do the same for Dalamadur?

EDIT: I'm referring to this calc btw.
 
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XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Oh hey, I just had an idea for a Calc. It's probably useless as **** given who it's for but I think it would be interesting. So for the longest time Naruto used a Calc involving a giant snake lunging at something with the speed of a normal snake attack and got ridiculous KE from it. You guys think we could do the same for Dalamadur?

EDIT: I'm referring to this calc btw.
Click to expand...
Not sure it would work, since we have Dalamadur at MFTL+ attack and reaction speed which I'm pretty sure doesn't work with KE? In any case, any motion Dalamadur does do in-game never comes close to baseline Elder level at Massively Hypersonic, so I'm not sure what the logic partitioning is there. Not a calc expert though.
 
Sigilavox said:
Not sure it would work, since we have Dalamadur at MFTL+ attack and reaction speed which I'm pretty sure doesn't work with KE? In any case, any motion Dalamadur does do in-game never comes close to baseline Elder level at Massively Hypersonic, so I'm not sure what the logic partitioning is there. Not a calc expert though.
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I meant just scale it to an actual snake's speed when it strikes and see what the results come out to. You could even use a highball and use the speed of sound since much weaker and slower monsters outright use sound as attacks that can be reacted to by other characters/monsters.
 
Sigilavox said:
Not sure it would work, since we have Dalamadur at MFTL+ attack and reaction speed which I'm pretty sure doesn't work with KE? In any case, any motion Dalamadur does do in-game never comes close to baseline Elder level at Massively Hypersonic, so I'm not sure what the logic partitioning is there. Not a calc expert though.
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Yeah, FTL KE breaks the physics you'd be using to calculate it, and Dalamadur just doesn't move anywhere near fast enough to justify this (on top of that, this calc seems to be off of a snake double the size of Dalamadur? I'm having trouble tracing where they get a lot of these numbers but I don't really care much to anyhow)
 
DMUA said:
Yeah, FTL KE breaks the physics you'd be using to calculate it, and Dalamadur just doesn't move anywhere near fast enough to justify this (on top of that, this calc seems to be off of a snake double the size of Dalamadur? I'm having trouble tracing where they get a lot of these numbers but I don't really care much to anyhow)
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If we're talking Dala movement, this intro clip of Shah could help somewhat? seems to indicate that it can be pretty fast tbh

also hi I've not been here in a long time lmao
 
Sigilavox said:
These should be final!
Click to expand...
Scorned Magnamalo's AP says Small Country Level.

Edit: Are we still saying Velkhana is only normal Elder Tier even when we're giving it the Sapphire Star feat? It's also the only Elder Dragon that doesn't get utterly curbstomped by Nergigante as shown by the fact that unlike every other Elder Dragon, Velkhana can actually kick it off after getting slammed into the ground.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Scorned Magnamalo's AP says Small Country Level.

Edit: Are we still saying Velkhana is only normal Elder Tier even when we're giving it the Sapphire Star feat? It's also the only Elder Dragon that doesn't get utterly curbstomped by Nergigante as shown by the fact that unlike every other Elder Dragon, Velkhana can actually kick it off after getting slammed into the ground.
Click to expand...
Scorned's AP has been fixed.

Yes, given everything the scaling shouldn't put Velkhana above other normal elders, since it clearly ties with other normal elders like Teostra and Kushala, and Nergigante doesn't actually "win" any turf wars. All Iceborne turf wars are either ties (both take 10% max HP) or one-sided (only loser takes 10% max HP). Despite animations, Nergigante takes damage just like the other elder dragons, only it has the "last" instance. Velkhana just has its damage trigger happen when it blasts Ruiner in the face with its ice rather than on initial impact like Kushala. From the context of powerscaling, the Sapphire Star KO feat is more of an outlier.

That said, there can be said to be scaling from the fact that Nergigante does cause Zorah to panic and flail about when it's nearby, halting its progress in the repel missions. But then you'd have to scale monsters that tie with the (definitely normal) Nergigante of base world up there, too.
 
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Given how Velkhana is portrayed as Sunbreak's TU4 monster and it is considered on a higher threat level than Shagaru/Malzeno, etc. (9*) by the game's admittedly odd scaling measures, it does seem like Velkhana is treated as a step above the others, though. After all, the Commander was just up and about to evacuate the entire Commision from the New World for fear of Velkhana ending the entire continent's ecosystem or some such, something that they were less afraid of with the whole Zorah repel mission, Behemoth, Xeno'jiiva, or hell, even a beast like Alatreon. shrugs

A problem with scaling these creatures is that scaling on this wiki relies on tiered feats, and ordering within a given tier is much harder to portray on a VS profile. Monster Hunter clearly has its own tiers of power, with Ruiner being obviously stronger than Nergi, who itself is considered "Super Elder Dragon-level Tier" alongside Furious Rajang as opposed to normal Rajang, who's just "Elder Dragon-level" (Furious Rajang entry on the Iceborne ecology book). We don't really have a great way of showcasing "Elder Dragon-level" and "Super Elder Dragon-level" through tiers or AP, so both end up being High 6-C.

Edit: Another problem with the tier differentiation is that due to ranking differences and certain monsters being locked behind certain levels while having turf wars of ties or otherwise, we have certain individuals of each species just inexplicably being able to match higher-tiered monsters. Let's say Velkhana is stronger than Xeno, as it is treated as a proper continental threat. That means every monster in Iceborne it ties with (since there are zero turf war outcomes wherein Velkhana outright wins) such as Teostra and Kushala could scale up to it, putting them all above Xeno'jiiva. There's also that Guiding Lands Rathalos that the post-Shara Sapphire Star was visibly fleeing from, despite not having any way to physically tell that it was superior to a normal Rathalos. Problem then is listing those things on a profile would probably get tedious. "High 8-C, up to Low 6-B with bioenergy" Rathalos and all.
 
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I get that, but I'm pretty sure even you were advocating that the Monster Profiles could have higher tiered members of their normal species at one point. Before I forget, are we ever gonna eventually give the Monsters Tempered/Arch-Tempered Keys? They're blatantly more powerful than their normal selves. I'm pretty sure the Guidebook even says that Tempered Monsters are Elder Dragon tier or something like that.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I get that, but I'm pretty sure even you were advocating that the Monster Profiles could have higher tiered members of their normal species at one point. Before I forget, are we ever gonna eventually give the Monsters Tempered/Arch-Tempered Keys? They're blatantly more powerful than their normal selves. I'm pretty sure the Guidebook even says that Tempered Monsters are Elder Dragon tier or something like that.
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Well, yeah. As a believer in most monsters being in the same relative ballpark as each other - it wouldn't surprise me if a regular Tigrex could off a Bazelgeuse, for example, and it just made sense that a Congalala could get some good hits in on a Deviljho before ultimately being overpowered - I do believe that individual monsters can indeed shove each other around as if in any typical ecosystem. There wasn't much discourse in response to that idea when I brought it up, so that train of thought was kind of left hanging.

The World book does refer to tempered monsters/blue scoutflies showcasing "elder level power", but I'd really rather the AP gap just be rolled into the main key rather than being reserved for a separate key with no abilities of its own.

Hell, there's another point for putting in scaling AP for monsters - it would actually give a reason why player hunters can reasonably bridge the gap between High 8-C and High 6-C upon first encountering an elder-level monster, as they could simply have been going "up the chain" across the split. It would be a neat reason for hunters, whose best gear at the time would be something like Rathalos, not being rolled over by High 6-C attacks in their "High 8-C armor".
 
Sigilavox said:
New key format?
Apex Monsters like Legiana and Diablos: "High 8-C up to High 6-C"
Elder Dragons like Teostra and Velkhana: "High 6-C up to Low 6-B"
Click to expand...
I wouldn't mind that to be honest. Btw, what happened to those plans to make profiles for the Stories characters? I know people were working on that for awhile now.
 
In hindsight, due to the fact that it's more and more frequent for strong individuals among apex species to reliably face off against elder dragons and other elder-level monsters, we can just have both "tiers" of monsters universally scale up to Low 6-B.

Apex Monsters like Legiana and Diablos: "High 8-C up to Low 6-B"
Elder Dragons like Teostra and Velkhana: "High 6-C up to Low 6-B"
 
Kisaragi_Megumi said:
Great, now we can proceed on making more profiles later on (otw Goss Harag Lunagaron profi-#Slapped)
Click to expand...
Lunagaron is gonna be a bit janky since it has that turf war with Malzeno where it didn't get immediately curbstomped and actually managed to slam it into the floor for a brief moment before getting air juggled.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
it didn't get immediately curbstomped
Click to expand...
I guess in terms of being one shot it didn't but it was still grossly overpowered the moment Malzeno got proper leverage, and it ties with Zinogre so I'd go High 8-C instead
 
DMUA said:
I guess in terms of being one shot it didn't but it was still grossly overpowered the moment Malzeno got proper leverage, and it ties with Zinogre so I'd go High 8-C instead
Click to expand...
True, but like Sigi was suggesting earlier, we could also just make the Apex Level Monsters a variable tier up to Elder Dragon level since some Apexes can actually compete with and harm ED level Monsters like when they fight Deviljho despite World hella doubling down on Deviljho being physically stronger than Elder Dragons but still tying with them thanks to their better elemental abilities.
 
DMUA said:
I guess in terms of being one shot it didn't but it was still grossly overpowered the moment Malzeno got proper leverage, and it ties with Zinogre so I'd go High 8-C instead
Click to expand...
It should be noted that, in the initial head-on assault where both were fully aware of each other, Lunagaron stopped Malzeno's charge dead in its path, and proceeded to stun and knock over the latter hard enough to shake the screen should a hunter be standing nearby. It also helps that the turf war immediately thereafter puts Lunagaron in a mountable state right after where its standard attacks can be used to not only damage Malzeno but knock it over and inflict Iceblight on it.
 
"stopped Malzeno's charge" is a bit misleading

what actually happens is it stops itself after being briefly blinded by a blast of ice, leading to Lunagaron flipping them over for a remarkably small amount of their health, and once Malzeno properly gets a grip on them, they're totally overpowered

It's honestly probably one of the clearest instances of a sheer gap between Elder Dragons and normal monsters when you really look at it
 
DMUA said:
"stopped Malzeno's charge" is a bit misleading

what actually happens is it stops itself after being briefly blinded by a blast of ice, leading to Lunagaron flipping them over for a remarkably small amount of their health, and once Malzeno properly gets a grip on them, they're totally overpowered

It's honestly probably one of the clearest instances of a sheer gap between Elder Dragons and normal monsters when you really look at it
Click to expand...
It does show that they can still stagger and harm them, even if it's minimal though.
 
That's really just not grounds for scaling, especially with how loose MH is about power gaps
 
Going frame by frame here, Malzeno actually flinches away before the ice attack even hits it.

Regardless, I agree that Lunagaron should be considered on par with other apex monsters in terms of average performance since it ends up dealing an unusually small amount of damage to Malzeno. Even Bishaten vs Almudron, which ends in Almudron indisputably winning, still shows both taking relatively equal damage.

Now, certain individual Lunagarons can definitely scale up to match elders as other apexes do. During a scripted, mandatory part of the Malzeno story hunt, Fiorayne wyvern rides the map's Lunagaron to attack Malzeno and it deals a significant chunk of damage (the standard wyvern ride fare), being treated as a notable moment in the hunt's flow.

This is the only story mission in which a follower actually does this, aside from the Support Surveys (which aren't story missions).

During a wyvern ride, a monster attacks with its own abilities and has no visual or implied enhancements going on - either from the hunter on top or the ironsilk binding its body. Monsters can use elemental attacks while wyvern riding, after all.
 
GimmyJibbsJr said:
Also I doubt it'd do much for calc purposes, but this clip of Kushala Daora changing the weather is legit really cool
Click to expand...
GimmyJibbsJr said:
Also something I don't think that ever got calced was upon Nakarkos dying, the stormy and darkened sky almost immediately brightens and clears up
Click to expand...
All monster storm generation feats are basically capped as it is to either Kushala or Kirin's current accepted level due to horizon scaling being capped at like 20 to 50 km in most cases after the old wiki horizon rework. That said, it is really cool to see these creatures having such an impact on their environment by virtue of being living forces of nature.

In other news, does anyone else have thoughts about how Alatreon's Escaton Judgement explicitly bypasses defense and elemental defense to deal fixed damage? Due to the fact that it's described as a shockwave rather than an explosion, I could see it being considered a sort of durability negation feat. Kind of like, freezing/baking hunters from the inside out - or at least going straight through their armor.
 
Sigilavox said:
All monster storm generation feats are basically capped as it is to either Kushala or Kirin's current accepted level due to horizon scaling being capped at like 20 to 50 km in most cases after the old wiki horizon rework. That said, it is really cool to see these creatures having such an impact on their environment by virtue of being living forces of nature.

In other news, does anyone else have thoughts about how Alatreon's Escaton Judgement explicitly bypasses defense and elemental defense to deal fixed damage? Due to the fact that it's described as a shockwave rather than an explosion, I could see it being considered a sort of durability negation feat. Kind of like, freezing/baking hunters from the inside out - or at least going straight through their armor.
Click to expand...
Doesn't that shit one-shot you?
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Doesn't that shit one-shot you?
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It does rapid ticks of damage rather than an instant burst of damage, but if you don't manage to suppress its nuke at least once within your six-minute clock, it will deal enough ticks of damage fast enough to kill a full-health hunter in less than half a second. So technically not a true one-hit kill, unlike Safi or Fatalis's nukes, but it will bulldoze straight through your pitiful max potion since it does more than four times your max health and is unsurvivable in solo (the cat revive item straight-up does not work, you just die).

However, if you have a coordinated team of four speed eating/wide-range max potion spammers, a full-power Escaton is technically survivable if nobody misses timing but mistime it by a quarter second and you're dead. If you're good enough to earn an elemental topple at least twice between Escatons, you can survive the whole blast without healing at all.
 
Sigilavox said:
It does rapid ticks of damage rather than an instant burst of damage, but if you don't manage to suppress its nuke at least once within your six-minute clock, it will deal enough ticks of damage fast enough to kill a full-health hunter in less than half a second. So technically not a true one-hit kill, unlike Safi or Fatalis's nukes, but it will bulldoze straight through your pitiful max potion since it does more than four times your max health and is unsurvivable in solo (the cat revive item straight-up does not work, you just die).

However, if you have a coordinated team of four speed eating/wide-range max potion spammers, a full-power Escaton is technically survivable if nobody misses timing but mistime it by a quarter second and you're dead. If you're good enough to earn an elemental topple at least twice between Escatons, you can survive the whole blast without healing at all.
Click to expand...
In that case yeah, I'd say it's either Dura Nag or a higher rating for Alatreon's Escaton Judgement. I think World did a good job showcasing the power that Black Dragons wield being at the top of the food chain since they're the only enemies in the entire game that have a One-Shot Kill button if it lands.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
In that case yeah, I'd say it's either Dura Nag or a higher rating for Alatreon's Escaton Judgement. I think World did a good job showcasing the power that Black Dragons wield being at the top of the food chain since they're the only enemies in the entire game that have a One-Shot Kill button if it lands.
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In hindsight, a higher rating would work just fine since it's described in the Iceborne ecology book as basically being just releasing a huge of energy, nothing "special", so to speak.
This attack, which unleashes an extreme shockwave containing all elements, is called "Escaton Judgment". To be honest, it might not be an intentional attack for Alatreon. When it transitions from a Dragon Active state to a Fire or Ice Active state, it releases a tremendously powerful combined energy, that's all. Its power, comparable to that of a natural disaster, is said to take away the vitality of all things in an instant.
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It's also pretty funny that, in 2 Dos, Yama Tsukami had a one-shot move while White Fatalis didn't (the game introduced both). Yama was also the actual final boss there.
 
That reminds me, we need to give Fatalis a 'Higher with Erasing Fire' since that's what his big nuke is called.
 
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