Minecraft Low 7-C Downgrade

[Moritzva]

So, then we just have to debate/decide the durability of bosses.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

This thread has been a doozy. Personally, I wouldn't scale them to 8-B, given what was put here on the thread. An 8-B explosion shaves off a very big part of their HP, and I'm of opinion that, in a video game like Minecraft where technically even the weakest, damage-dealing mob can still damage something like the Ender Dragon, even if only by chip damage, means we need to be more strict and not consider scaling neither significantly weak monsters damaging the tougher ones, nor a mob having a lot of difficulty tanking an attack.

If I'm not mistaken, earlier on the thread, High 8-C was proposed, and it seems fine to me, but I do not consider myself a Minecraft specialist.

 

[Moritzva]

This thread has been a doozy. Personally, I wouldn't scale them to 8-B, given what was put here on the thread. An 8-B explosion shaves off a very big part of their HP, and I'm of opinion that, in a video game like Minecraft where technically even the weakest, damage-dealing mob can still damage something like the Ender Dragon, even if only by chip damage, means we need to be more strict and not consider scaling neither significantly weak monsters damaging the tougher ones, nor a mob having a lot of difficulty tanking an attack.

If I'm not mistaken, earlier on the thread, High 8-C was proposed, and it seems fine to me, but I do not consider myself a Minecraft specialist.

High 8-C was another proposal for Boss Durability - my preference lies in favor of 8-C boss durability, but there’s a lot of variance.

If accepted, 9-A mobs stay 9-A, all 8-B mobs go to 8-C, and bosses are 8-C in AP with undecided (8-B, High 8-C, or 8-C) durability.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm still in favor of 8-B Durability for the bosses, since chip damage against largely higher durability is not uncommon in fiction. The rest looks great.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree with 8-B for bosses, yeah. At the very least "possibly 8-B". Anything lower seems like outright ignoring feats.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What would The Player's durability be? High 8-C?

 

[KieranH10]

Before the last CRT which made mobs Low 7-C, Endermen were High 8-C via tanking regular Creeper explosions, and their durability should likely reflect that once these revisions conclude. I believe the Player with endgame armor would also warrant this since iirc they can tank Creeper blasts with Diamond and Netherrite Armor.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

That's fair. A "High 8-C, likely 8-B" seems indeed very plausible

 

[Moritzva]

What exactly will we classify as “endgame”, diamond?

And since I’m not truly a fan of separating keys purely based on equipment, would Steve be 8-C, High 8-C with diamond/netherite gear?

I can’t complain too much, since once you get to that point, Silverfish “chip damage” becomes nonexistent and Zombies become the new chip damage.

 

[KieranH10]

Yes, Diamond and Netherite are the Endgame Gear, a player can contend with the Ender Dragon quite comfortably with Diamond Gear, Netherite is a luxury for such.
A Player wearing Diamond or Netherite Gear can tank Creeper explosions iirc (Someone may need to test this, since i'm not 100% confident), so they would have High 8-C Durability with such armors.

I don't believe the same can be achieved with Iron armor, so that would be the cutoff point of High 8-C, and Iron armor would simply upscale 8-C.

 

[Moritzva]

I would greatly prefer if we do not directly scale Steve’s attacks to High 8-C, or at least, not without incredible amounts of downscaling.

Equally, mobs that are grave threats to even diamond armor Steve (e.g. Vexes, Vindicators, Piglin Brutes) should also me High 8-C by this logic, as they can very much tear you apart no matter how great your armor is.

So I suppose the only point of contention I have to “9-A to mobs that are 9-A, 8-C for most other mobs/mobs weaker than The Ender Dragon’s attacks, and (contested) durability for The Ender Dragon” is what AP would Steve and other mobs get.

If we use three points of scaling - 9-A scaling to Silverfish, 8-C scaling to Ghasts fireballs, and High 8-C scaling to Ender Dragon attacks (which would be quite heavy downscaling from Creeper explosions - we can scale people to it, but obviously they don’t survive it very well, and their attacks definitely aren’t close to that same level), then I suppose it could work. High 8-C Ender Dragon, 8-C Steve who is High 8-C with Diamond/Netherite Gear, and very few stone walls.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

That is a very big issue not only in Minecraft, but in several videogames that have similar mechanics. It is admittedly a bit arbitrary at which point we do or do not scale characters to certain feats. Almost any character can hurt each other, and when usually a character has enough power to one-shot an armorless character, even a fully armored one takes significant damage from it.

I mean, it certainly is doable to fight the Ender Dragon with iron-tier equipment, just not optimal.

Idk if I expressed myself correctly, but the point is if we are going to tier characters with any significant gaps between them in power (Which I agree with), there is some arbitrary choices to be made about what amount of damage should be used to scale or not, and other things.

By the way, I'm a bit curious about speed. It's been discussed here that most mobs can't really react or even keep up with Steve if the player isn't distracted, and when I think about this, it makes sense. While dodging attacks isn't quite the right word for it as Minecraft mechanically almost forbids it (Dodging is directly tied to your movement, you just perceive something and move out of the way), Steve can perceive arrows and crossbow bolts, and to him it is quite simple to avoid most monsters unless they gang up on him, blitzing them with attacks to the point of stunlocking and staying forever out of range. Some mobs should of course scale to him in speed, like Enderman and the Ender Dragon, I think, but some, like Zombies, Skeletons and others might be more objectionable. I don't know.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

can this be applied?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Perhaps

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

We have absolutely no idea what kind ofndestruction the Dragon performs, so the feat is unquantifiable.

Like I said, saying that the feat is impossible to accurately calc is fine, since it can be interpreted in many different ways. However it's still a physical feat - it's done by ramming, there's no indication that it's done with some sort of hax like a passive EE aura (especially not BFR, since in a Minecraft end world with set borders, destroyed blocks won't appear anywhere) and the only anti-feats I've debunked above as game mechanics. The Dragon destroying blocks being game mechanics argument has also been debunked previously - the statement was made eons ago, and if the developers didn't want it to be part of the game, they would have changed it by now, especially since the Dragon fight itself has been changed dramatically since then.

Anyways, I've explained my reasoning above and it still stands. I'm fine with removing Low 7-C and mob to boss scaling, but 8-B top tiers should be fine to stay.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[RethPo]

I mean. Whatever issues with the scaling are going on. It seems almost everyone agrees on low 7-C being removed. Shouldnt it be fine to do so?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that's agreed upon, but it's still gotta be replaced with something

 

[RethPo]

Not really... almost everyones city block level, possibly small town level. So im just thinking remove small town so everyones just city block level for now and then the actual scaling can be discussed. Low 7-C removing can be done rn pretty easy unless its better to just wait for the scaling to be fully decided... (also spiders durability is weaker than silverfish for some reason so that might need changing)


If i can give any other take, i do find the logic of the ender dragon not being 8-B questionable. Writing off his most common feat of pulverising blocks as game mechanics/outlier because he doesnt destroy endstone. If anything him not destroying endstone is game mechanics (or the dragon just not wanting to destroy the blocks?) since yknow, it would make navigating the end 20 times more annoying and probably result in the island getting destroyed. Even him pulverising basalt (and i think glass) would be city block tier

Neutral on mobs scaling but at best backscale. I mean, an iron golem being only a threat to the wither when its reduced to half its life under specific circumstances... that alone would backscale them to at best half their strength and zombies are way weaker

 

[KieranH10]

Not really... almost everyones city block level, possibly small town level. So im just thinking remove small town so everyones just city block level for now and then the actual scaling can be discussed. Low 7-C removing can be done rn pretty easy unless its better to just wait for the scaling to be fully decided... (also spiders durability is weaker than silverfish for some reason so that might need changing)

I mean that just seems like more edits. While it is agreed upon I think we should wait until this thread concludes, then we can get the edits done in one sweep.

If i can give any other take, i do find the logic of the ender dragon not being 8-B questionable. Writing off his most common feat of pulverising blocks as game mechanics/outlier because he doesnt destroy endstone. If anything him not destroying endstone is game mechanics (or the dragon just not wanting to destroy the blocks?) since yknow, it would make navigating the end 20 times more annoying and probably result in the island getting destroyed. Even him pulverising basalt (and i think glass) would be city block tier

It being a game mechanics wasn't the argument. We don't know at all how those blocks were destroyed, so cant assume any valid end for the calculation.

 

[GyroNutz]

Neutral on mobs scaling but at best backscale. I mean, an iron golem being only a threat to the wither when its reduced to half its life under specific circumstances... that alone would backscale them to at best half their strength and zombies are way weaker

Iron Golems kinda curbstomp almost every other mob though. Maybe Pillagers, Vindicators etc can backscale in "large enough groups" like they did before, since now that's canon (you can find Iron Golems trapped in cages in Pillager outposts now). But yes, I do think Iron Golem scaling is fine - the main reason they can't defeat a Wither normally is because before it gets to half health, it always flies above the Iron Golem's reach.

 

[RethPo]

Truth be told im really bored and just find mass downgrading to be fun
Actually. I just spawned the iron golem and wither into a bedrock box (iron golem after to avoid first explosion oc) and the wither only barely won so iron golems should scale actually

Also the iron golems can survive a charged creeper explosion when i tested on normal putting them in a 4x4 area (most they can fit in) and endermen can take a normal creeper point blank. While at the same time steve with full diamond cant survive a completely point blank creeper explosion, unless they use full netherite (discounting enchantments). Although mobs take damage from mobs completely different than steve does so thats likely mostly gameplay mechanics.

It being a game mechanics wasn't the argument. We don't know at all how those blocks were destroyed, so cant assume any valid end for the calculation.

Oh, well in that case, shouldnt blocks disappearing completely on contact make it blatantly pulverisation (besides water)?

 

[KieranH10]

Oh, well in that case, shouldnt blocks disappearing completely on contact make it blatantly pulverisation (besides water)?

No, it makes it an unknown case. Could be SubAtomization for all we know.

 

[RethPo]

...What? The dragon rams into a block with physical force and makes it disappear as a result. It literally cant be anything less than pulverisation.
If hes only ever doing it by ramming into them then occams razor alone should make that a force feat. Hax is never implied or lines up with anything else they do.

Honestly the only way i see the ender dragon not being 8-B from it is if you write them off as outliers or gameplay mechanics for the other reasons. But even then, 8-B should at least be a possible rating

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

I still dont get what the problem with the enderdragon destroying blocks is, it can destroy blocks and even liquids without a trace, theres no reason to believe it does it through hax, it just does it, its at least pulverization possibly vaporization because of water destruction, and theres no reason to believe its anything higher like atomization

and about scaling I guess I could try to come up with something but I should probably actually open Minecraft and see how mobs compare to each other or look up each mobs health and how many hearts they deal

 

[KieranH10]

We aren't assuming it does it through hax. As you say, it just does it. In an undefined manor, so it cant be classed as anything other than Game Mechanics. It destroys water too in the exact same way, so Pulverization would not work. Vaporization often requires either a statement or some amount of Smoke or Steam to be visible, which isn't there. We know that's not right because we very clearly see Water Vaporize in the Nether, smoke and steamy effect and sound and all.

 

[RethPo]

Or it just makes water evaporate and at least pulverises anything it touches? The water in the nether is evaporating from heat so theres no reason to assume the same should apply to the dragon (especially when uknow, itd make the game lag like hell). Why are we even assuming it has have the same effect on a solid as a liquid because of the way theyre destroyed? As if the developers have any reason to bother creating a different effect for the solid blocks being hit by the dragon in the first place (which again would lag the game to hell and back) assuming they even had a way to animate pulverisation differently.

"we dont know the dragons method" isnt an argument that contradicts anything unless youre arguing he does it with hax or without physical force in general (which he does by occams razor). If youre destroying something by ramming into it with physical force you scale to it (netherite blocks included). If its completely gone afterwards then its blatantly pulverisation. Sorry but theres nothing remotely undefined about ramming into something with physical force and destroying it beyond questionable mechanics.

Although maybe you could still make an argument? To back your point up actually he does pretty much phase through any block he doesnt destroy instead of stopping which... maybe could back up your point here of his methods being questionable? Either way, 8-B holds at least a possibly rating.

Either way high 8-C to 8-B is pretty consistent for bosses compared to anything higher lower considering iron golems and ravagers being able to survive charged creeper explosions.

Edit: Although actually. Creepers pulverising all the blocks they destroy does seem pretty contradictory now that i think about it considering they leave a lot of it behind

 

[KieranH10]

Or it just makes water evaporate and at least pulverises anything it touches?

Assuming that it destroys stuff differently depending on whether it's a liquid or not is cherrypicking feats and requires more assumptions than assuming it's all the same.

The water in the nether is evaporating from heat so theres no reason to assume the same should apply to the dragon (especially when uknow, itd make the game lag like hell).

Unless you wish to Pulverize water? Evaporation is vaporization...

Why are we even assuming it has have the same effect on a solid as a liquid because of the way theyre destroyed? As if the developers have any reason to bother creating a different effect for the solid blocks being hit by the dragon in the first place (which again would lag the game to hell and back) assuming they even had a way to animate pulverisation differently.

Because they're destroyed the same way? That's literally all we know... Which is why the feat is unusable because it can be interpreted in literally any way.

"we dont know the dragons method" isnt an argument that contradicts anything unless youre arguing he does it with hax.

No, the argument I'm proposing is that we don't have any speck of a clue what the Dragon is doing, it gives us literally nothing for evidence. So we have absolutely to make any kind of assumption from. Not even an ability, we don't know what it's doing, so it warrants nothing but Game Mechanics

If youre destroying something by ramming into it with physical force you scale to it (netherite blocks included).

But we don't know that it is doing it with physical force, nothing in the game suggests that.

If its completely gone afterwards then its blatantly pulverisation.

No. Pulverization would be turning it to dust or something similar, not removing it without any indication as to how. Especially when this very same effect also works on Water.

Sorry but theres nothing remotely undefined about ramming into something with physical force and destroying it beyond questionable mechanics.

We've seen so many feats of physical force in Minecraft, Silverfish breaking blocks leaves particles, Explosions do too, and leave blocks on the ground. Zombies crack and break down doors, also with particles. The Dragon makes blocks vanish as it flies with no drops, no particles, nothing.

What was the reasoning for High 8-C again?

 

[GyroNutz]

Creeper explosions are High 8-C. There's also an old Ender Dragon calc that is High 8-C too assuming pulverization.

8-B is currently via Charged Creeper + Wither explosions.

 

[RethPo]

Sigh... alright this is the last im debating this part, for the time being anyways. With the nether part im talking about the fact that the water is vaporised by heat and not the ke of something ramming into it so the effects dont have to be the same. The animators literally have no reason to animate effects for the dragons ramming, ive just explained. Thats not even how gameplay mechanics works and we do have a massive clue what the dragons doing. Hes ******* destroying tunnels of blocks by flying through it. Its an ap feat through basic occams razor even if the result from him doing it supposedly does make no sense. Even if you cant calc it and the result he creates is game mechanics, destroying a netherite block would still blatantly scale him to creepers being unable to.

Normal creepers are high 8-C and charged are 8-B. Iron golems and such can also tank the latter i dunno if anybodys brought up. But still, creepers pulverising blocks is a little questionable when they leave stuff behind. I think theyd be around half as much if we used violent frag though.

 

[GyroNutz]

Normal creepers are high 8-C and charged are 8-B. Iron golems and such can also tank the latter i dunno if anybodys brought up. But still, creepers pulverising blocks is a little questionable when they leave stuff behind. I think theyd be around half as much if we used violent frag though.

The current calcs actually take into account the blocks that are left behind by Creeper explosions.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

is there any game mechanicy reason for creepers to be unable to destroy netherrack? I didn't even know they couldn't until now

 

[GyroNutz]

is there any game mechanicy reason for creepers to be unable to destroy netherrack? I didn't even know they couldn't until now

Just tested it and they can destroy netherrack. Where did you get this from?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

other people were saying it

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

I probably just read something wrong