Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Antvasima]

You can check Idazmi's editing history for today, and then go to the history sections of all the profile pages in question, open the stored versions of the profiles from right before the recent edits, click edit, and then save. Then the pages are restored to how they were.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.

 

[Idazmi]

I'm almost 100% sure 9-B wasn't agreed upon. 8-C downgrade is a whole another story.

The ability changes and profile rewriting, definitely weren't agreed upon.

This thread is very long, and we discussed an awful lot. As the discussion continued, many points were brought up about minecrafts abilities, which were summarily ignored instead of addressed. The eventual consensus, as shown in the many comments by Agnaa, Therefir, Ayewale, RageComment, Ricsi-viragosi, and HierophantDeluxe, is that because of the Ender Dragon calc, all of Minecraft's profiles are in bad shape, and need to be reevaluated. Reposting some of their comments here:

Sure, but I'm also not sure about scaling the dragon's block-disapperance to its AP when it doesn't do anything near that level of destruction with its normal attacks.

Maybe it could be separated into environmental destruction, or something like that?

Water getting vaporized can be seen in the Nether, and it has a very different animation. Besides, just because it vaporizes water, it doesn't mean it also vaporizes to every other block.

But I digress

Also, why does the Ender Dragon have resistance to Void Manipulation, if he never goes to the area in which the void is actually able to kill you?

If the Ender Dragon is erasing blocks from existence, vaporization is inapplicable, that would be just hax.

This still doesn't make sense, according to you, even Minecraft's weakest creature is immune to 7-C attacks because no one is affected by the Elder Dragon's ability, are you going to upgrade everyone to 7-C or what?

Idazami seems to make sense to me personally.

The Ender Dragon's insta-delete aura seems to only apply to blocks and nothing else. Because of this I am inclined to believe that it's restricted to environmental destruction, which we can have a seperate AP listing for.

Setting up a ridiculous pre-built scenario where the Ender Dragon deletes a bunch of blocks and then assuming it applies to it's other attacks is unwarranted. Maybe if his other attacks could delete iron blocks like that, but IIRC they cannot.

I also dislike the notion of abusing in-game mechanics by setting up a situation for the Elder Dragon to delete as much blocks as possible and us treating that as AP. In that case, if there are monsters or characters in game programmed to be invincible should we give them High 3-A durability? By @Saikou's logic it's a deliberate mechanic and should deserve to be quantified.

Because it doesn't break in-game logic. Not that I agree with it.

Again, by your logic the Ghasts are more durable than diamond armored skeletons/zombies/whomever, which is false.

Dziga, MattadorProne, SuperAPM, and MattadorProne, Jimboydejuan12, and The God Of Procrastination also generally agreed with my reasoning.

 

[Jinsye]

That's for AP

Give me the reasons why the ABILITIES were removed.

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi

This has not been handled in an at all appropriate manner.

Calculations should always be placed in blog posts and evaluated by the calc group before they can be used.

If I misunderstood this point earlier due to being distracted from overwork, this is partially my fault, but that doesn't change that the tier changes derived from this are illegitimate and need to be corrected.

However, taking the opportunity to perform lots of changes that were not agreed upon, is directly violating our rules.

Alright.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. What do you think Edward?

In any case, the problem with the lack of an accepted calculation blog needs to be solved.

 

[Jinsye]

High 8-C is fine. Though I personally think that it could be 8-B due to the fact that the Wither Explosion pulverizes glass which has a higher pulverization value then stone. It also needs to be put in a blog.

8-C's downgrade needs to wait until the Heat CRT is dealt with, as the Minecraft profiles would be directly affected by it.

The ability changes? No. Those were never accepted and we actually have an ongoing CRT for those.

 

[Idazmi]

That's for AP

Give me the reasons why the ABILITIES were removed.

You mean Void Manipulation, Darkness Manipulation and such? I removed those because the MOBS don't do either of those things. That was also discussed above:

Water getting vaporized can be seen in the Nether, and it has a very different animation. Besides, just because it vaporizes water, it doesn't mean it also vaporizes to every other block.

But I digress

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. At least one calc group member also needs to evaluate the calculation blog.

 

[Ayewale]

Could someone state all of the abilities that Idazmi had removed?

 

[Jinsye]

-Resistance to void manipulation

-Resistance to probability manipulation

-Darkness manipulation

-Death manipulation

-The Player's void manipulation

-The Player's large size

-Moving the potions to endgame and the enchantments to mid-game for some reason

and a few others I remember.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

What rules are Idazmi's suggested changes violating in summary?

His suggested changes uses health points, which is a direct violation of the Game Mechanics page. He claims Minecraft has no plot despite the game simply because it's more openworld and up to player choice, but the game has a subtle drive towards reaching the enderdragon, especially via its achievements. Games with TRULY no plot are things like The Sims where there is no beginning, middle, and end... Which is what PLOT is.

He's literally saying Minecraft has no plot because there is no cutscenes, and because of that, he's using values that are purely for the element of the gameplay.

Regardless, there is no statement in the Game Mechanics page that says it has to have a plot in order for it to be used.

 

[Ayewale]

What rules are Idazmi's suggested changes violating in summary?

His suggested changes uses health points, which is a direct violation of the Game Mechanics page. He claims Minecraft has no plot despite the game simply because it's more openworld and up to player choice, but the game has a subtle drive towards reaching the enderdragon, especially via its achievements. Games with TRULY no plot are things like The Sims where there is no beginning, middle, and end... Which is what PLOT is.

He's literally saying Minecraft has no plot because there is no cutscenes, and because of that, he's using values that are purely for the element of the gameplay.

Regardless, there is no statement in the Game Mechanics page that says it has to have a plot in order for it to be used.

The game has absolutely no plot, and he's completely right in that statement at least. As for your Sims comparison, with the backwards logic you're using The Sims very well has a plot, too, as The Sims has a subtle drive towards playing the game a lot.

Minecraft has no plot because there are no cutscenes, there is no dialogue from any characters until literally the end, and there is essentially no established canon for Minecraft apart from 'gods exists'.

Also, all the minecraft pages until now have been using game mechanics to scale. Nearly all of Minecraft scaling is based on game mechanics.

 

[Ayewale]

-Resistance to void manipulation
-Resistance to probability manipulation

-Darkness manipulation

-Death manipulation

-The Player's void manipulation

-The Player's large size

-Moving the potions to endgame and the enchantments to mid-game for some reason

and a few others I remember.

on one hand, these didn't have a CRT I think, so he shouldn't have removed them.

on the other hand, removing most of these are actually pretty correct. Apart from the potions/enchantments things.

 

[Antvasima]

Can we focus on getting the calculation transfered to a blog and evaluated by the calc group, as well as evaluating whether or not any abilities were removed without sufficient approval, please? This is not a good time for derailment.

 

[DMB_1]

Avoid quoting Large Walls of text.

Anyways, this thread seems concluded. We might as well close it and move on the another CRT about Powers and Abilities of the overall verse.

 

[Antvasima]

We first need a calculation blog. The scaling is currently based on referencing something that uses an entirely wrong format, and isn't properly evaluated, so the scaling might be entirely wrong/unwarranted for all that we know.

 

[Idazmi]

(...) on the other hand, removing most of these are actually pretty correct. Apart from the potions/enchantments things.

For the record, I moved enchantments to mid-game due to enchantment tables requiring only obsidian and diamond to make - both are available surprisingly early on - and I moved potions to Endgame because Brewing Stands can only be made with materials found in the End dimension.

 

[Jinsye]

You can obtain potions in mid-game by raiding Witch's Huts.

But move this to the other thread anyways, this should only be for the 7-C downgrade alone.

 

[Idazmi]

You can obtain potions in mid-game by raiding Witch's Huts.

I was referring to the player being able to make them directly.

 

[Antvasima]

We first need a calculation blog. The scaling is currently based on referencing something that uses an entirely wrong format, and isn't properly evaluated, so the scaling might be entirely wrong/unwarranted for all that we know.

Is somebody willing to place it in a blog and request evaluation help?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

@Ayewale

You can't have an "ending" if there was no beginning. Just because it isn't spelt in one-syllable words for us doesn't mean that there's no plot. You logic with the sims doesn't even compare because that basicallh says every game is a plot, including something like tag.

When was it a requirement for plot to have cutscenes and dialogue? Even addressing that the dialogue at the end exists pretty much disproves your point, especially when the dialogue does indeed talk about how the player 'progressed' throughout the game.


"Also, all the minecraft pages until now have been using game mechanics to scale. Nearly all of Minecraft scaling is based on game mechanics."

Even if I were to agree with this, are you saying two wrongs make a right? Either way, this entire thread has been arguing over whether or not something was game mechanics, and I've already addressed in my very first comment that the most that this thread has ever concluded to was a "possibly 7-C" rating. There has never been a conclusion to the subject, people just started abandoning the thread one-by-one. This was a battle of stubbornness.

 

[Ayewale]

@Ayewale
You can't have an "ending" if there was no beginning. Just because it isn't spelt in one-syllable words for us doesn't mean that there's no plot. You logic with the sims doesn't even compare because that basicallh says every game is a plot, including something like tag.

Uh, hold up a second. Your proof for minecraft having an ending is literally just 'muh achievements'. So yes, by your logic, every game has a plot.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

And. blaze rods comes from a Blaze, found in the nether, not the End. Items one generally obtains literally right after you obtain diamond and obsidian.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to place it in a blog and request evaluation help?

For gawd's sake. Is this really such a hard task? We don't have a lot of posts left in this thread.

 

[DMB_1]

Minecraft as supposedly achievements and steps to reach teh end. That doesn't mean it has an actual storyline. It's the entire reaso as of why Minecraft Story Mode exists. Speaking of which, if the ED appeared there, it would clarify this whole issue, but hey, it's already dead, so...

 

[Ayewale]

I'd do it but I need to sleep quite soon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Minecraft as supposedly achievements and steps to reach teh end. That doesn't mean it has an actual storyline. It's the entire reaso as of why Minecraft Story Mode exists. Speaking of which, if the ED appeared there, it would clarify this whole issue, but hey, it's already dead, so...

I'm pretty sure Story Mode is a spinoff series.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to copy the calculation to a blog post and ask for evaluations?

 

[Redite250]

I can do it if no one else will

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help. Feel free to do so.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hey there.

So the debunk, such as it is, of the Ender Dragon rubs me the wrong way. The way it is portrayed is via game mechanics (as in, large hitbox and game just removing the blocks). That doesn't actually matter though. The creator designed the creature to destroy that amount, and then just said he cheated to portray it without a collision system. So that's just a bad argument right out of the getgo.

So why are we not scaling to the Ender Dragon as 8-B? What?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. What is 8-B based on?

Also, are there Minecraft pages that still need to be reverted from the recent inaccurate changes?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

8-B is based on more accurately calcing the Ender Dragon's feat- that is to say, considering it Pulverization and not Vaporization (which would be 7-C).

 

[Jinsye]

You can technically get 8-A by assuming the Ender Dragon pulverized the glass, but that might be a stretch

 

[Jinsye]

1792 m3 being the amount destroyed and 214.35 being the pulverization value of stone.

Assuming we accept Bambu's proposal we get around 91.8057361377 tons of TNT, City Block level+ assuming for just stone.

Assuming we'd accept glass we'd get 8-A, or 428 tons of TNT. However this option is more risky due to glass being very fragile and difficult to pulverize.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Mr. Bambu's sense of judgement.

 

[Jinsye]

That is if Bambu's proposal gets accepted.

If it does I can put it in a blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is there a blog with the 8-B pulverisation calculation?