Minamoto no Raikou vs Sigurd

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The round 3 of Raikou vs Servants fight, and this time it's against the Famous Norse Hero Sigurd, the Dragon Exterminator and the one who got the wisdom after slayed Fafnir
On other note, i found a problem about the planned fight against False Berserker: There are so few of folks who know Strange Fake and even if there's more of it, they wouldn't interested with the matches
So her fight with False Berserker need to be held until i find an persons who want to debating and instead i'll make Raikou vs Medea for the alternative

Anyway lets go to the fight!!

The Norse Greatest Heroes against the Early Heian Era Greatest Warrior, both had an incredible talent and fame such as slayed the evil dragon and gained the wisdom, while the other had slayed and exterminated many of devils/monsters on her journeys
Both are also carried an guilt and regret, the former had a tragedy between him and his love that caused their demise, while the latter had that demon blood flowed on her vein and her true nature
Now both of the two are faced each other in a duel to prove who is the greatest!!

---

• Both are having a prior knowledge
• Both are in-characters
• Place: Near the villages of Ittoqortoormiit, Greenland, Blizzard Weather
• 
• Starting Range: 50 meters
• Win via anything!!
• The Norse Dragon Slayer: 1
• The Early Heian-Era Monster/Demon Slayer: 7
• Inconclusive: 0

---

VS

​

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sigurd is like, not really the most skilled Saber ever.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Does he? From what we know, his skill should be above Siegfried (yes i know its not enough of evidence but it still worth to bring it)
EDIT: Another one is that he stomped Sherlock as well

 

[DaReaperMan]

Mate, it was Surtr that stomped Holmes, in fact the entirety of Lostbelt 2 before Surtr for his genuine body back, was Surtr possessing Sigurd. He's above Siegfried by an unknown amount and... that simply ain't enough. Sigurd gets skill stomped and molley whopped without question.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, i just realized it another issue why LB2 should be overlooked dammit

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Okay, skill time

Unfortunately I know little of Sigurd's skill aside from him having better statements than Siegfried (annoyingly), and possibly skillstomping Holmes

Except that Siegfried scales just slightly below Karna, who scales to Li Shuwen and Scathach, who are both most likely far above Sigurd but I digress

Raikou scales to or just under Lancelot, who is more skilled than either Tristan or Gawain by a long shot, both of whom have similar "skills surpassing mankind" statements to Sigurd and his brothers; also has some absurd feats on her own like her fight with Suzuka and her match with Musashi, both of which I highly doubt Sigurd could remotely replicate.

Based on my limited knowledge, it seems that Raikou handily outskills, though I am open to being proved wrong.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm pretty sure Raikou stood up to Musashi. That uh, that's enough to completely molley whop 99% of sabers.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

To be fair it was early Musashi, before she had become the skillmonster she is later

But you could argue that Raikou scales around the level of Hozoin Inshun, in which case boy howdy she skillstomps even harder than I thought

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So guess Raikou take this pretty easily?

 

[DaReaperMan]

If by "pretty easily" you mean "stomps", then yes.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I doubt its a stomp, Sigurd in comparison shouldn't be underestimated
There is the Primeval Runes which he mastered it and by how much powerful it is, it can pypassing Raikou MR easily (D Rank)
One of his spell are death runes, while it doesn't instant kill her, it would damaged her spiritual core badly

As for skill, sure he get outskilled but that doesn't mean his skill are very below her (like he's called King of Warrior for reason)

So while in the end Raikou win here, it still not a very one-sided fight considering what Sigurd have shouldn't be underlooked

 

[TypeOU]

Sigurd overwhelmed mash with his short sword, absolutely preventing her from fighting back with ease, Raikou didn't, even in her much stronger ushi gozen form.
His np is stronger, and he can stop nps with runes. His rune of death gets past Raikou D-ranked magic resistance and instantly kill her if he manages to use it. Both his strength AND his endurance are A+ ranked, and his C-ranked mana is actually ridiculously superior to Raikou's due to his dragon-like core that allows him to act almost indefinitely even without a master.
He should massively upscale in skill from siegfried, who in turn scales to mordred, who scales to Artoria. Raikou scales to Lancelot who upscales from Lancelot, so there's no basis for the assumption that "raikou is more skilled". He also skillstomped holmes who has the B++ ranked baritsu, with B++ being superior to A+ (120 vs 100), to the point where holmes can use his baritsu on a level comparable to a noble phantasm. His runes give him access to the clairvoyance skill while his glasses allows him to get knowledge about nearly everything.
In the 5th lostbelt, he was directly compared to caenis, not as an equal, but rather someone superior to her in that being humbled by him allowed sherlock to survive caenis attacks, he also heavily contributed in the fight against surtur despite being weakened to the point where he should have died.
His processing ability allows him to use his glasses with no difficulty, whereas it would give a headache to anyone else
He shitstomped mash, sherlock, sieg, hokusai, and pretty much every regular servant he ever fought
Even if he was somehow in a situation where raikou has higher chances to win, he would know it thanks to his glasses and instantly use the np she can't do anything against

Not that I'm expecting anything at this point

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah thats a good arguments for Sigurd there, then again from what Raikou has shown so far she still had a better win-rate here, but not without Sigurd giving her so much trouble

So i take Type comment as a vote for Raikou, anyone else?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

However, him stomped Sieg and Hokusai is new to me, is that came from the event?

 

[TypeOU]

However, him stomped Sieg and Hokusai is new to me, is that came from the event?

it's from his interlude.

Yeah thats a good arguments for Sigurd there, then again from what Raikou has shown so far she still had a better win-rate here, but not without Sigurd giving her so much trouble

I'm pretty sure Sigurd has a 100% win rate though? And if he lost to anyone, it was to the 1-C surtur, so not much of a counterfeat

So i take Type comment as a vote for Raikou, anyone else?

Sigurd

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Oh nvm then

But still, from the fights that happened before, Raikou can somehow still pull something to win this lel

 

[TypeOU]

Like I said, sigurd has an assurance called crystallized wisdom. If she really can win, she has to be strong enough to get past a np equal to excalibur

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sigurd overwhelmed mash with his short sword, absolutely preventing her from fighting back with ease, Raikou didn't, even in her much stronger ushi gozen form.
His np is stronger, and he can stop nps with runes. His rune of death gets past Raikou D-ranked magic resistance and instantly kill her if he manages to use it. Both his strength AND his endurance are A+ ranked, and his C-ranked mana is actually ridiculously superior to Raikou's due to his dragon-like core that allows him to act almost indefinitely even without a master.
He should massively upscale in skill from siegfried, who in turn scales to mordred, who scales to Artoria. Raikou scales to Lancelot who upscales from Lancelot, so there's no basis for the assumption that "raikou is more skilled". He also skillstomped holmes who has the B++ ranked baritsu, with B++ being superior to A+ (120 vs 100), to the point where holmes can use his baritsu on a level comparable to a noble phantasm. His runes give him access to the clairvoyance skill while his glasses allows him to get knowledge about nearly everything.
In the 5th lostbelt, he was directly compared to caenis, not as an equal, but rather someone superior to her in that being humbled by him allowed sherlock to survive caenis attacks, he also heavily contributed in the fight against surtur despite being weakened to the point where he should have died.
His processing ability allows him to use his glasses with no difficulty, whereas it would give a headache to anyone else
He shitstomped mash, sherlock, sieg, hokusai, and pretty much every regular servant he ever fought
Even if he was somehow in a situation where raikou has higher chances to win, he would know it thanks to his glasses and instantly use the np she can't do anything against

Not that I'm expecting anything at this point

Most of this argument comes from when Sigurd was possessed by Surtr, so he actually doesn't scale to most of it at all.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Need some time to write a answer so give me a bit.

 

[TypeOU]

Most of this argument comes from when Sigurd was possessed by Surtr, so he actually doesn't scale to most of it at all.

why wouldn't he scale? It's possession, unless stated/implied otherwise, it should be the body's owner's abilities. Bryn didn't find anything wrong with him until the end too and she would know how strong he is. Also, weirdly enough, I don't see surtur skillstomping holmes

 

[DaReaperMan]

why wouldn't he scale? It's possession, unless stated/implied otherwise, it should be the body's owner's abilities. Bryn didn't find anything wrong with him until the end too and she would know how strong he is. Also, weirdly enough, I don't see surtur skillstomping holmes

For AP and such, yeah, but here's the thing, it's a possession. That means Sigurd was barely in control at best, and the only show of genuine control we saw out of him was stopping Surtr from killing us. That's it. You can't see something all ya want, it's the truth.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also Bryn was barely in contact with Sigurd until the end. And she was half-insane

 

[TypeOU]

For AP and such, yeah, but here's the thing, it's a possession. That means Sigurd was barely in control at best, and the only show of genuine control we saw out of him was stopping Surtr from killing us. That's it. You can't see something all ya want, it's the truth.

...So? AP is exactly what I showed with that

 

[DaReaperMan]

...So? AP is exactly what I showed with that

AP doesn't matter much when your getting skill ****** does it? And trust me, Expectro ha a few wakeup calls for ya on Raiko

 

[TypeOU]

AP doesn't matter much when your getting skill ****** does it? And trust me, Expectro ha a few wakeup calls for ya on Raiko

And I independently showed that there's no reason for her skills to be superior to his. Please read my post before answering

 

[DaReaperMan]

And I independently showed that there's no reason for her skills to be superior to his. Please read my post before answering

I did. Maybe you should read the second half of my post, eh?

 

[TypeOU]

I'm waiting.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Sigurd overwhelmed mash with his short sword, absolutely preventing her from fighting back with ease, Raikou didn't, even in her much stronger ushi gozen form.

When happened that? Because the only Sigurd vs Mash that I remember was when Surtr controlled his body. Also, Raikou absolutely stomped Mash in the first event she appeared, even in 4 vs 1 (Kintoki, Mash, Ushiwakamaru, Fuuma Kotarou, and Benkei) and was only defeated by a surprise attack of Shuten Douji (which herself is also a powerful servant).

His np is stronger, and he can stop nps with runes. His rune of death gets past Raikou D-ranked magic resistance and instantly kill her if he manages to use it. Both his strength AND his endurance are A+ ranked, and his C-ranked mana is actually ridiculously superior to Raikou's due to his dragon-like core that allows him to act almost indefinitely even without a master.

How big was again the aoe of the NP? Because she could dodge the throw blades, also, don't the NP show his true outstanding power against dragon only? Same as Siegfried Balmung.

How many times someone could kill a servant with a death rune? I honestly want to know that because I don't rememeber Cú doing so or even Scáthach/Skadi, and in the case that he can indeed kill another servant with them, why is assumed that he would use them when I don't remember any time in which he used them, I haven't see all his scenes but I saw many of them and I don't remember that. Cool that his stats are high, Raikou stats are also high do to the combo of Mana Burst + Mystery Killer since Sigurd activate it.

He should massively upscale in skill from siegfried, who in turn scales to mordred, who scales to Artoria. Raikou scales to Lancelot who upscales from Lancelot, so there's no basis for the assumption that "raikou is more skilled". He also skillstomped holmes who has the B++ ranked baritsu, with B++ being superior to A+ (120 vs 100), to the point where holmes can use his baritsu on a level comparable to a noble phantasm. His runes give him access to the clairvoyance skill while his glasses allows him to get knowledge about nearly everything.

Don't know if you know this, but Siegfried have defeated before Sieg (in the event of Las Vegas) so I don't know from when it come that Sigurd massively upscale above Siegfried when they are always treated as equals in game. You say skilstomped Holmes but first of all that was Surtr and second Holmes isn't actually a physical fighter, he can fight? Yes, that don't change that he isn't actually a physical combatant, his baritsu for example he himself say is only good for self defence.

The glasses is a good point, but Raikou quite literally stomped someone with a NP that give knowledge like the Blessing of Wisdom which not only give knowledge but also high calculation power and info analysis. Suzuka could only scratch the cheek of Raikou after a long fight because of the effects of Blessing of Wisdom in the long run.

He shitstomped mash, sherlock, sieg, hokusai, and pretty much every regular servant he ever fought
Even if he was somehow in a situation where raikou has higher chances to win, he would know it thanks to his glasses and instantly use the np she can't do anything against

He didn't stomped Mash nor Sherlock, he was defeated by in a fight Siegfried. Raikou in turn have all the Shimosa singularity that put her massively above Sigurd, but if that wasn't enough in Las Vegas for example the protagonist group (Mash, Osakabehime, Melt, Siegfried, Kotarou, Hokusai and I think more servants that I don't remember) needed the help of Raikou to defeat a enemy that stomped them, similarly there exist several more events and story parts in which Raikou is not only treated as a big deal but is also needed to defeat a great enemy.

However, him stomped Sieg and Hokusai is new to me, is that came from the event?

it's from his interlude.

I suppose you refer to this right? Because this was only a training against two greenhorns, yeah Hokusai have some experience do to Las Vegas and is better with the sword than what one can initially expect, but she still is always treated as a novice and at the end in the final fight she herself admit that is inferior to characters of Siegfried level, the same Siegfried that defeated Sigurd and who needed the help of Raikou. Also, if you want to use him teaching to Hokusai Raikou did the same, so this don't put him above her.

In the 5th lostbelt, he was directly compared to caenis, not as an equal, but rather someone superior to her in that being humbled by him allowed sherlock to survive caenis attacks, he also heavily contributed in the fight against surtur despite being weakened to the point where he should have died.

I'm pretty sure Sigurd has a 100% win rate though? And if he lost to anyone, it was to the 1-C surtur, so not much of a counterfeat

If you want to play the tier 1 card then I can very well do the same because Musashi used tier 1 shit to defeat Raikou (eyes + karma cut), Suzuka needed tier 1 shit to defeat Raikou (Combo of Blessing of Wisdom + Trichiliocosm which is not only basically SIN level of hax but also divine hax, and even then she admited that she only won because Raikou didn't wanted to use her own tier 1 things), she played a big role in the Imaginary Scramble event, and in LB 6 she also played a important role in the defeat of Ibuki Douji and Ashiya.

This is an stomp? No, Sigurd have the means both in power and intellect to defeat Raikou, but I at least see more times Raikou winning than not.

 

[TypeOU]

When happened that? Because the only Sigurd vs Mash that I remember was when Surtr controlled his body.

which, again, doesn't change anything. It's still sigurd who does it, and there are multiple indications that he was operating at his usual power level

Also, Raikou absolutely stomped Mash in the first event she appeared, even in 4 vs 1 (Kintoki, Mash, Ushiwakamaru, Fuuma Kotarou, and Benkei) and was only defeated by a surprise attack of Shuten Douji (which herself is also a powerful servant).

not really. Stomping her would be her head rolling on the floor, or at least dealing with them with absolutely no problem. She was winning, but it was a "win", or an easy win against mash. It doesn't help that, again, it was an amped form

How big was again the aoe of the NP? Because she could dodge the throw blades, also, don't the NP show his true outstanding power against dragon only? Same as Siegfried Balmung.

Excalibur scaling, the dragon niche is a bonus.

How many times someone could kill a servant with a death rune? I honestly want to know that because I don't rememeber Cú

Cu... doesn't have primordial runes

doing so or even Scáthach/Skadi

She's a caster, a rune that is specifically meant to be put on someone isn't exactly her forte. Plus it's not like she ever needed it, except against surtur, but brynhildr stated that it was too strong for even an illusion rune before being weakened. He's 1-C so it checks out

, and in the case that he can indeed kill another servant with them, why is assumed that he would use them when I don't remember any time in which he used them, I haven't see all his scenes but I saw many of them and I don't remember that. Cool that his stats are high, Raikou stats are also high do to the combo of Mana Burst + Mystery Killer since Sigurd activate it.

Litterally his first scene ever was him using it on sherlock ffs. High stats vs high stats means raikou can't overwhelm him in that regard, with a stronger np and his runes, that puts him at an advantage.

Don't know if you know this, but Siegfried have defeated before Sieg (in the event of Las Vegas)

Summer events are hardly consistent compared to the main story, and even then, siegfried explicitly stated that the only reason he won was because we were with him to support him.

so I don't know from when it come that Sigurd massively upscale above Siegfried when they are always treated as equals in game.

They're not.

You say skilstomped Holmes but first of all that was Surtr and second Holmes isn't actually a physical fighter, he can fight? Yes, that don't change that he isn't actually a physical combatant, his baritsu for example he himself say is only good for self defence.

a B++ skill that can reach the level of a noble phantasm. It being specialized in defense really doesn't make it better when the point is that he instantly defeated holmes. And again, that was surtur in command but most definitively a showing of sigurd's power.

The glasses is a good point, but Raikou quite literally stomped someone with a NP that give knowledge like the Blessing of Wisdom which not only give knowledge but also high calculation power and info analysis. Suzuka could only scratch the cheek of Raikou after a long fight because of the effects of Blessing of Wisdom in the long run.

First, that's wrong. They were roughly equal, raikou came out a bit above thanks to circumstances, but they were close for the whole fight. Second, blessing of wisdom DOESN'T gives her knowledge, it increases her processing ability and makes her smarter, so she wouldn't know, "ah, she's that dangerous, I absolutely have to release my noble phantasm". There's a reason she has a whole NP dedicated to knowing things, you know, the one she used to stomp raikou. Fourth, suzuka doesn't have a noble phantasm equal in power to excalibur that she can instantly release if her opponent is a threat, unlike sigurd.

He didn't stomped Mash nor Sherlock

did tho

he was defeated by in a fight Siegfried.

you're repeating yourself

Raikou in turn have all the Shimosa singularity that put her massively above Sigurd

Like what? Japanese servants outside of a select fews aren't exactly the strongest bunch. You can roughly guess that she was superior to the swordsmen before her, but being stronger than houzouin, tomoe and chiyome isn't the greatest feat. Then using it to scale her to anything else is pointless since she was amped

but if that wasn't enough in Las Vegas for example the protagonist group (Mash, Osakabehime, Melt, Siegfried, Kotarou, Hokusai and I think more servants that I don't remember) needed the help of Raikou to defeat a enemy that stomped them

Are you kidding me? It was literally a joke about how raikou mommy aura countered Jeanne big sister beam.

similarly there exist several more events and story parts in which Raikou is not only treated as a big deal but is also needed to defeat a great enemy.

And I don't doubt her mommy aura was extremely useful in those.

I suppose you refer to this right? Because this was only a training against two greenhorns, yeah Hokusai have some experience do to Las Vegas and is better with the sword than what one can initially expect, but she still is always treated as a novice and at the end in the final fight she herself admit that is inferior to characters of Siegfried level, the same Siegfried that defeated Sigurd and who needed the help of Raikou. Also, if you want to use him teaching to Hokusai Raikou did the same, so this don't put him above her.

"Sieg, finding an opening, becomes Siegfried and clash, but Sigurd just knock him (detransformed) down with a blow at the body."
"Hokusai slash, but got deflected."
"He cut down made a large tree fall by pure swordsmanship alone without any other buff. The two got stunned speechless."
"After battle, the duo breathes tiredly. Sigurd notes that it's pretty good. And if they train without sagging, they can pave the way of the sword. Hokusai celebrates that its over before ko-ing, saying too tired. Sieg want to help carry, but he's also too tired and also joins in ko. Guda says they fall in satisfaction."

If you want to play the tier 1 card then I can very well do the same because Musashi used tier 1 shit to defeat Raikou (eyes + karma cut), Suzuka needed tier 1 shit to defeat Raikou (Combo of Blessing of Wisdom + Trichiliocosm which is not only basically SIN level of hax but also divine hax, and even then she admited that she only won because Raikou didn't wanted to use her own tier 1 things), she played a big role in the Imaginary Scramble event, and in LB 6 she also played a important role in the defeat of Ibuki Douji and Ashiya.

tier 1 abilities and tier 1 AP are 2 different things. just getting past the resistances wouldn't matter if your opponent can get you in a single hit would it? And the other difference is that raikou lost multiple times to non-tier 1, starting with shuten as you mentionned earlier. Also "participating in a fight" would make mash the strongest servant so... yeah.

This is an stomp? No, Sigurd have the means both in power and intellect to defeat Raikou, but I at least see more times Raikou winning than not.

I mean I'm not even gonna argue about skills and such more than that, how does raikou get past the wisdom+gram combo?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

which, again, doesn't change anything. It's still sigurd who does it, and there are multiple indications that he was operating at his usual power level

So basically you are scaling Surtr feats to Sigurd because why not, without any sort of proof. Surtr was literally in control of his body, if Sigurd body hand moved to the side it was because of Surtr, not Sigurd, this because Surtr was was possessing him, so you need solid proof to scale any action he took to him.

not really. Stomping her would be her head rolling on the floor, or at least dealing with them with absolutely no problem. She was winning, but it was a "win", or an easy win against mash. It doesn't help that, again, it was an amped form

She was dealing with them with absolutely no problem.

Cu... doesn't have primordial runes

She's a caster, a rune that is specifically meant to be put on someone isn't exactly her forte. Plus it's not like she ever needed it, except against surtur, but brynhildr stated that it was too strong for even an illusion rune before being weakened. He's 1-C so it checks out

So no showing of someone using death runes, so the reason of why Sigurd would use them is?

Litterally his first scene ever was him using it on sherlock ffs.

As Surtr or as Sigurd? Since you say he used it against Sherlock I assume it was when Surtr possessed him. Also, if he can use them easily against anyone why he didn't use them against the dragons in his interlude, or against any monster/enemy in any event he appear.

Summer events are hardly consistent compared to the main story, and even then, siegfried explicitly stated that the only reason he won was because we were with him to support him.

So you are argumenting that Ritsuka friendship power amped Siegfried to the point of win against Sigurd and Bryn.

a B++ skill that can reach the level of a noble phantasm. It being specialized in defense really doesn't make it better when the point is that he instantly defeated holmes. And again, that was surtur in command but most definitively a showing of sigurd's power.

You don't have proof of why it would scale to Sigurd what Surtr did. Also, Homes jumped to his attack and fighted him directly (despite not be his style) when Surtr used Gram so Ritsuka and the Shadow Border didn't got hit.

They're not.

They are.

First, that's wrong. They were roughly equal, raikou came out a bit above thanks to circumstances, but they were close for the whole fight. Second, blessing of wisdom DOESN'T gives her knowledge, it increases her processing ability and makes her smarter, so she wouldn't know, "ah, she's that dangerous, I absolutely have to release my noble phantasm". There's a reason she has a whole NP dedicated to knowing things, you know, the one she used to stomp raikou. Fourth, suzuka doesn't have a noble phantasm equal in power to excalibur that she can instantly release if her opponent is a threat, unlike sigurd.

So a fight in which one side is exhausted and in a tattered state while the other side only had a scratch after a long fight is a roughly equal fight, perfectly understable. The NP say it give her Manjushri's wisdom though, which is why she turn so skilled with it. Rank B++ NP (120) are above Rank A+ NP (100) though, Gram by itself is Rank A (50) and the Rank A+ beam part is only unleashed after already impale the opponent.

Rank	Value	+	++	+++
A	50	100	150	200
B	40	80	120	160
C	30	60	90	120
D	20	40	60	80
E	10	20	30	40

Like what? Japanese servants outside of a select fews aren't exactly the strongest bunch. You can roughly guess that she was superior to the swordsmen before her, but being stronger than houzouin, tomoe and chiyome isn't the greatest feat. Then using it to scale her to anything else is pointless since she was amped

She give problems to Musashi and she considered Raikou skill as crazy though, Sigurd also don't have skill feats near Shimosa level. And I don't know why she normally wouldn't scale in skill to that, unless that somehow be under a much greater madness effect than what she already have in her berserker state would also mean a skill amp, is actually the contrary since she have a skill that specifically state that she retain her skill level not matter under what effect of mental hindrance she is.

And can't respond to the rest because my cousins come to visit so I need to watch them.

 

[TypeOU]

Will answer tomorrow and if you find a way she can survive taking gram.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So no showing of someone using death runes, so the reason of why Sigurd would use them is?

It came from his fight with Holmes, where he marked him with death runes

Anyway bump!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

As for Raikou surviving Gram, i think the AoE isn't the issue, the point blank is the issue here as he literally punched the f*** out of Gram to perform Bolverk Gram

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Got some time.

tier 1 abilities and tier 1 AP are 2 different things. just getting past the resistances wouldn't matter if your opponent can get you in a single hit would it? And the other difference is that raikou lost multiple times to non-tier 1, starting with shuten as you mentionned earlier. Also "participating in a fight" would make mash the strongest servant so... yeah.

I mean I'm not even gonna argue about skills and such more than that, how does raikou get past the wisdom+gram combo?

I'm a little confused at what you are trying so say, probably because of how you worded it, but are you saying that Raikou have tier 1 resistances and/or that Sigurd have tier 1 AP? Because Sigurd don't have tier 1 AP and Raikou don't have tier 1 resistances because she don't use her divine nature as berserker. Also, yes, she have be defeated by non-tier 1 things, the same way Sigurd have be defeated by a non-tier 1 Siegfried or Heroine X (who btw was defeated and ran away from Musashi even before the events of Shimosa) for example, Shuten case isn't even that bad because it was a surprise attack from a ignore durability NP when she was fighting other opponents (I also could remember wrong do to how much time passed since I last saw it but didn't Shuten even had the Grial?). Mash have tier 1 defenses and even tier 1 AP with her beam (though the thing somehow still isn't in the profile), so she is definitely is in the strong side, also, Raikou not only participated but was one of the keys characters both in imaginary scramble since she was defeating the whales and in lb 5.5 against Ibuki and Ashiya.

The wisdom isn't that broken, if it was he wouldn't be defeated by others, it's strong yes but I want at least one example of a time in which it made him stomp the other side or have a perfect/easy win, even one just time of it been decisive in a fight would be enough. Also, she can block/counter the NP with her own NP, use clones to tank damage, dodge and things like that.

It came from his fight with Holmes, where he marked him with death runes

I just saw the moment and it was Surtr who used it, so I ask again why would be assumed that Sigurd would use them even despite he haven't do so in other situations? I at least don't remember other cases where they come to play.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyway i wouldn't be online for a while so have a good debate and don't forget to vote

 

[TypeOU]

The wisdom isn't that broken, if it was he wouldn't be defeated by others, it's strong yes but I want at least one example of a time in which it made him stomp the other side or have a perfect/easy win, even one just time of it been decisive in a fight would be enough.

... why? That's the effect of the skill, he doesn't need proof that it does that just like we have no actual proof that raikou mystic slayer increase her stats (no, it was never stated in story)

Also, she can block/counter the NP with her own NP, use clones to tank damage, dodge and things like that.

Not only does her np take time to release the B++ ranked attack, but while gram is A+ ranked, it scales to the A++ excalibur, which makes it stronger than the regular B++ ranked np raikou has. He can also spam it at will thanks to his dragon core

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

... why? That's the effect of the skill, he doesn't need proof that it does that just like we have no actual proof that raikou mystic slayer increase her stats (no, it was never stated in story)


Not only does her np take time to release the B++ ranked attack, but while gram is A+ ranked, it scales to the A++ excalibur, which makes it stronger than the regular B++ ranked np raikou has. He can also spam it at will thanks to his dragon core

You are misunderstanding, I'm not doubting that the glasses give knowledge, I'm doubting said knowledge is actually that useful in combat or was the decisive factor in any fight in which Sigurd fought, so I'm asking for examples. Also, Mystery Killer is really different because the skill description already mention the usefulness in combat, we also have the statements from servants with higher stats than her (Kintoki for example with Rank A+ Strength) which say that she is crazy strong and feats showing that.

• Bölverk Gram: Heaven's Wheel of Destruction: Sigurd unleashes the full power of Gram as an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm by launching the daggers that compose Gram at his foe, which proceed to strike them from all directions and scatter flames as Sigurd punches the main sword at his opponent. After impaling them with it, Sigurd then proceeds to invoke the name Bölverk, an alias of his ancestor, the Norse god Odin, before slamming his fist into Gram's hilt to unleash a powerful beam of destruction equivalent to that of the strongest Holy Sword.

The description itself say that the powerful beam equivalent to Excalibur is released after the sword is already impaling the opponent, so before it could reach that power the sword already would need to impale the body of the real Raikou, something that the clones can prevent.

Also, if he can spam it then he would had do so in all or at least several of the fights he fought, which didn't happened neither against the dragons in his interlude, the fight with Siegfried or the fight against Heroine X (who, again, defeated him and she was defeated by a pre-Shimosa Musashi).

 

[TypeOU]

Will answer in 30 minutes or so