Minamoto no Raikou vs Sigurd

[TypeOU]

You are misunderstanding, I'm not doubting that the glasses give knowledge, I'm doubting said knowledge is actually that useful in combat or was the decisive factor in any fight in which Sigurd fought, so I'm asking for examples. Also, Mystery Killer is really different because the skill description already mention the usefulness in combat, we also have the statements from servants with higher stats than her (Kintoki for example with Rank A+ Strength) which say that she is crazy strong and feats showing that.

"A magic item that does not exist in the original myth. Sigurd's glasses are the crystallization of the wisdom he gained from eating the heart of the evil dragon Fafnir, allowing him to access enormous amounts of information on nearly any topic he wishes at will. It would even work if the glasses are lent to others, but the sheer volume of information will easily give others a painful headache."

Seems obvious that he would be able to know things such as how strong his opponent is or how likely he is to lose.

Also her being that strong is also thanks to ME EX.

The description itself say that the powerful beam equivalent to Excalibur is released after the sword is already impaling the opponent, so before it could reach that power the sword already would need to impale the body of the real Raikou, something that the clones can prevent.

isn't this the gameplay description tho? I'm pretty sure he does a blast battle against surtur in LB2 for example, so he should be able to release it even without doing the combo.

Also, if he can spam it then he would had do so in all or at least several of the fights he fought, which didn't happened neither against the dragons in his interlude, the fight with Siegfried or the fight against Heroine X (who, again, defeated him and she was defeated by a pre-Shimosa Musashi).

saber wars sigurd isn't panhuman sigurd fyi. But hey, if we're going that road, he is explicitly stronger than lancelot and actually kills spishtar goddess form (1-C sigurd when?). Also isn't that the fight where mhx had to go through a rank-up quest to win?

But again, common sense over PIS, he has an attack that takes a lot of mana from him, but nigh-infinite mana to use it, so he can spam it just like salter can spam excalibur.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Seems obvious that he would be able to know things such as how strong his opponent is or how likely he is to lose.

So not proof of an actual case in which the glasses were decisive in a fight? Ok.

isn't this the gameplay description tho? I'm pretty sure he does a blast battle against surtur in LB2 for example, so he should be able to release it even without doing the combo.

Could you show the scene or give the minute in which happen that? Just to be sure.

saber wars sigurd isn't panhuman sigurd fyi. But hey, if we're going that road, he is explicitly stronger than lancelot and actually kills spishtar goddess form (1-C sigurd when?). Also isn't that the fight where mhx had to go through a rank-up quest to win?

Saber wars Sigurd is an even stronger Sigurd than normal Sigurd do to the energy state fo servantverse, that Sigurd also had more years of experience (I think he lived thousands of years, could remember wrong though) and receive some level of training from Yagyu and Good Space Ishtar, and when he was said to be more skilled than Lancelot? I know he was in a better position but wasn't that not only because he spend more years in the organization but also because Lancelot was crazy do to be his berserker self (he didn't even had amnesia?).

The battle with Astarte was also only possible with the help of Jane NP that alter reality to create a weakness and another five unknown servants were also needed, the battle also wasn't show so we don't now how it all happened, different than the battles of Raikou against tier 1 things.

Nope, MHX had the rank-up/training after the battle and it was because she needed a new technique to destroy Astarte temple.

But again, common sense over PIS, he has an attack that takes a lot of mana from him, but nigh-infinite mana to use it, so he can spam it just like salter can spam excalibur.

So again no actual proof of a case in which he spammed his NP? Ok.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Btw if it wasn't clear my vote is to Raikou and Type vote is to Sigurd.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Can online right now

Anyway counted, @DaReaperMan @Creaturemaster971 Do you guys want to vote?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

 

[thesurvivlist]

Raikou FRA

 

[TypeOU]

Yay, vs battle bug, I 100% answered this already.

So not proof of an actual case in which the glasses were decisive in a fight? Ok.

trusting the material is more than enough, especially for a character with only 1 major appearances and a bunch of cameos?

Could you show the scene or give the minute in which happen that? Just to be sure.

Saber wars Sigurd is an even stronger Sigurd than normal Sigurd do to the energy state fo servantverse, that Sigurd also had more years of experience (I think he lived thousands of years, could remember wrong though) and receive some level of training from Yagyu and Good Space Ishtar

Yeah in case that wasn't obvious I was being ironic with the whole scaling thing. Servantverse is an AU, we don't scale AU, especially not ones that are THAT different.

, and when he was said to be more skilled than Lancelot? I know he was in a better position but wasn't that not only because he spend more years in the organization but also because Lancelot was crazy do to be his berserker self (he didn't even had amnesia?).

Aside from the fact that lancelot madness seems to be an act in the servantverse, Sigurd and Munenori were quite explicitly stated to be the top 2

The battle with Astarte was also only possible with the help of Jane NP that alter reality to create a weakness and another five unknown servants were also needed, the battle also wasn't show so we don't now how it all happened, different than the battles of Raikou against tier 1 things.

"To defeat Ashtart Origin, they executed the Star Four Card,[1] a tactic which consisted on Sigurd using his demonic sword's Ten Suns form to obliterate her Spiritual Core while Calamity Jane was pinning her down, Although Sigurd's own Saint Graph started crumbling after destroying her spirit core,[1][4] Although the Servantkind is a collective entity that is no greater threat to her than an insect colony would be to a Servant,[4] the Primordial Goddess accepted her defeat with her Saint Graph shattered and faded away.[1] Ashtart believes that it must have been her good side's naivety holding her back.[4]"
Surely this much should be fine right?

Nope, MHX had the rank-up/training after the battle and it was because she needed a new technique to destroy Astarte temple.

Nevermind that then, she still had access to the conceptual advantage of a true dragonkin over someone with the heart of one though.

So again no actual proof of a case in which he spammed his NP? Ok.

See the first part. Seriously, what's next, ignoring stats?

Edit: Also, I would refrain from voting while there's an ongoing debate about one of the characters having literally 0 chance to win, but hey.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!

Edit: Also, I would refrain from voting while there's an ongoing debate about one of the characters having literally 0 chance to win, but hey

Who?

 

[TypeOU]

The survivlist I mean. Voting while the debate is still ongoing without adding to it doesn't give off a great message imo

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Oh right, but what i mean is which characters that have 0 chance to win?

But either way, i'm going to hold the vote off until it's settled

 

[TypeOU]

Oh right, but what i mean is which characters that have 0 chance to win?

But either way, i'm going to hold the vote off until it's settled

Raikou I mean. If sigurd can indeed know everything about her with crystalized wisdom, and can kill her with his np if she poses a threat, there's no way she could win, right? But again, ongoing debate.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I mean, Crystalized wisdom isn't like Almighty, no? And i'm sure as hell that Raikou have a higher chance to win here

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Oh right, but what i mean is which characters that have 0 chance to win?

But either way, i'm going to hold the vote off until it's settled

He believe that Raikou have 0 chances based in the fact that the glasses give him knowledge (which he didn't showed a single fight in which that made him win) or that he will spam his NP despite he never doing in any othe fight, or that he will use death runes despite the only time that he used them was when Surtr controled his body, or that he is more skilled than Raikou, or that his NP (A+) is stronger than her (B++) despite B++ be explicitly said to surpass A+, etc.

Enough arguments were made from both sides so it's perfectly fine to vote.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I mean, Crystalized wisdom isn't like Almighty, no?

Replied to what Type said above

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Enough arguments were made from both sides so it's perfectly fine to vote.

Honestly i prefer the debate getting settled first, but we'll see

 

[TypeOU]

I mean, Crystalized wisdom isn't like Almighty, no? And i'm sure as hell that Raikou have a higher chance to win here

I dont know much about bleach but its effect is litterally nigh infinite knowledge, gauging his opponemt should be a given

He believe that Raikou have 0 chances based in the fact that the glasses give him knowledge (which he didn't showed a single fight in which that made him win) or that he will spam his NP despite he never doing in any othe fight, or that he will use death runes despite the only time that he used them was when Surtr controled his body, or that he is more skilled than Raikou, or that his NP (A+) is stronger than her (B++) despite B++ be explicitly said to surpass A+, etc.

Enough arguments were made from both sides so it's perfectly fine to vote.

And you're working under the assumption that the skill description, which is in his profile btw, can't be used. PIS is off as far as I'm aware.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I dont know much about bleach but its effect is litterally nigh infinite knowledge, gauging his opponemt should be a given

And you're working under the assumption that the skill description, which is in his profile btw, can't be used. PIS is off as far as I'm aware.

That doesn't matter if he never uses it. it's like unrestricted SNI for Gil, its basically a non-argument unless the character is straight bloodlusted.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Honestly i prefer the debate getting settled first, but we'll see

I mean, if the other side refuse to show examples which he won do to the knowledge of the glasses, examples of him only spamming his NP, use his death runes in character and so then more can't be debated, the amount of anti-feats for said claims is quite high actually, but anyways, there already are enough arguments about the reason of why each side win so vote is completely fine, there is no more point to wait.

 

[TypeOU]

That doesn't matter if he never uses it. it's like unrestricted SNI for Gil, its basically a non-argument unless the character is straight bloodlusted.

Except that gilgamesh explicitly doesn't fully use SNI, and had enough appearances to show it.

I mean, if the other side refuse to show examples which he won do to the knowledge of the glasses, examples of him only spamming his NP, use his death runes in character and so then more can't be debated, the amount of anti-feats for said claims is quite high actually, but anyways, there already are enough arguments about the reason of why each side win so vote is completely fine, there is no more point to wait.

I mean... the death runes were used once, with his body and abilities. If that's not enough, his page might as well be nuked, since that was his only relevant appearance. You will also have a hard time finding counter feat since he didn't ever fight to the death outside of that single time.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Aside from the fact that lancelot madness seems to be an act in the servantverse, Sigurd and Munenori were quite explicitly stated to be the top 2

Wait, what?

Can you provide the source for Sigurd being compared in skill to Munenori?
Because if that's a thing, that greatly changes my argument

Also, sidenote, Lancelot's madness doesn't affect his skill. That's the whole definition of Eternal Arms Mastery.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And yet there's nothing saying Sigurd is at all using it, you have yet to prove that Sigurd uses Death Runes, NP spams, or uses the wisdom in-character. They are all non-arguments because you lack proof, anything Surtr did is an automatic non-argument, because that would be how Surtr acts in-character, not Sigurd.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Wait, what?

Can you provide the source for Sigurd being compared in skill to Munenori?
Because if that's a thing, that greatly changes my argument

Also, sidenote, Lancelot's madness doesn't affect his skill. That's the whole definition of Eternal Arms Mastery.

It was a Sigurd with thousand(s) of years and training from both Yagyu and Good Space Ishtar (Sigurd from Saber Wars II), so it wouldn't count to normal Sigurd.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Oh okay.

Still a good skill feat for Yagyu I guess

 

[TypeOU]

Wait, what?

Can you provide the source for Sigurd being compared in skill to Munenori?
Because if that's a thing, that greatly changes my argument

Also, sidenote, Lancelot's madness doesn't affect his skill. That's the whole definition of Eternal Arms Mastery.

Why is everyone talking about skills? It was a power comparison and a rhetorical way to prove that servantverse scaling doesn't work since it would put mhx above munenori, who's leagues above pre shimousa musashi, who's leagues above mhx. Sigurd skill are still as described on his profile, eclipsing sherlock Holmes fighting defensively, despite him having a B++ ranked skill reaching the level of a NP for his combat skills.

And yet there's nothing saying Sigurd is at all using it, you have yet to prove that Sigurd uses Death Runes, NP spams, or uses the wisdom in-character. They are all non-arguments because you lack proof, anything Surtr did is an automatic non-argument, because that would be how Surtr acts in-character, not Sigurd.

So please tell me how sigurd acts in character? While going for the kill obviously.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean... the death runes were used once, with his body and abilities. If that's not enough, his page might as well be nuked, since that was his only relevant appearance. You will also have a hard time finding counter feat since he didn't ever fight to the death outside of that single time.

So Surtr did it, no Sigurd, can you show a single time in which Sigurd as Sigurd used them?

In his interlude he didn't spammed his NP, used death runes or had a absurdly easy win do to his glasses, same in Las Vegas, Saber Wars II and though I still don't see the story of summer camp I'm pretty sure that here said thing didn't happened, so, again, could you show any time in which Sigurd used the things you claim.

 

[TypeOU]

So Surtr did it, no Sigurd, can you show a single time in which Sigurd as Sigurd used them?

In his interlude he didn't spammed his NP, used death runes or had a absurdly easy win do to his glasses, same in Las Vegas, Saber Wars II and though I still don't see the story of summer camp I'm pretty sure that here said thing didn't happened, so, again, could you show any time in which Sigurd used the things you claim.

I said in a fight to the death, obviously he's not gonna murder a fellow chaldean like that, it'snot called a death rune (and a np equal to excslibur) for giggles. Sw2 is still not panhuman sigurd btw.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Oh okay.

Still a good skill feat for Yagyu I guess

Bro, his servantverse version and Space Ishtar are able to even cut neutrinos irrc, they are skill broken.

Why is everyone talking about skills? It was a power comparison and a rhetorical way to prove that servantverse scaling doesn't work since it would put mhx above munenori, who's leagues above pre shimousa musashi, who's leagues above mhx. Sigurd skill are still as described on his profile, eclipsing sherlock Holmes fighting defensively, despite him having a B++ ranked skill reaching the level of a NP for his combat skills.

Surtr did the fight though, using the body of Sigurd? Yes, but Surtr was the one doing the actions since he was the one in control, so it don't scale to normal Sigurd. And no, MHX didn't fought against Yagyu, in his fight the main group (Bad Space Ishtar, Jane and Ritsuka) believed that she was dead since she was doing the training with infinite time in the place of MHXA.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sigurd is a melee, acts like a melee, and generally uses his various blades to fight. We have never seen him do anything but they besides the general times a servant NPs.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I said in a fight to the death, obviously he's not gonna murder a fellow chaldean like that, it'snot called a death rune (and a np equal to excslibur) for giggles. Sw2 is still not panhuman sigurd btw.

Then the explanation of why he didn't used them against the dragons? Or in the summer camp? Or any other apparition he have? Also, even if he used death runes it wouldn't had killed his fellow chaldeans the same way they didn't killed Holmes, they would just damaged them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Holmes only survived cause he was put in a stasis lol

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Holmes only survived cause he was put in a stasis lol

I mean, he didn't died instantly and could be treated, yes he was badly injured but could recover, the same can happen here so it was more in that sense the comment.

Edit: Holmes case was also specially bad do to also lost his arm.

 

[TypeOU]

Surtr did the fight though, using the body of Sigurd? Yes, but Surtr was the one doing the actions since he was the one in control, so it don't scale to normal Sigurd. And no, MHX didn't fought against Yagyu, in his fight the main group (Bad Space Ishtar, Jane and Ritsuka) believed that she was dead since she was doing the training with infinite time in the place of MHXA.

... so that's the point we're back at? Surtur!sigurd doesn't scale? I already explained why it makes no sense when surtur fooled characters who personally knew sigurd, including Bryn. Get over it or open a CRT, because you have a lot of stuffs to remove then, basically the whole page really.

MUNENORI and Sigurd are still equals.

Sigurd is a melee, acts like a melee, and generally uses his various blades to fight. We have never seen him do anything but they besides the general times a servant NPs.

You do know fgo is a mobile game? Where the fights are mostly not scenarized? Not that "he is melee except when he isn't" is gonna change anything anyway.

Then the explanation of why he didn't used them against the dragons? Or in the summer camp? Or any other apparition he have? Also, even if he used death runes it wouldn't had killed his fellow chaldeans the same way they didn't killed Holmes, they would just damaged them.

Come on, you just said you didn't read the summer camp. And ge won against the dragons didn't he? Are you trying to guess the content of the fight?

It should have killed Holmes. Having an half dead Sprite isn't supposed to show good health and survival.

I mean, he didn't died instantly and could be treated, yes he was badly injured but could recover, the same can happen here so it was more in that sense the comment.

Edit: Holmes case was also specially bad do to also lost his arm.

You do get we're still talking about his comrades, yes? What, do you think training included just murdering hokusai and sieg? Or his opponent in a casual fight? Who also had magic resistance at the same rank anyway?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You know what? Screw it, guess i'm going to opened the votes now

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

... so that's the point we're back at? Surtur!sigurd doesn't scale? I already explained why it makes no sense when surtur fooled characters who personally knew sigurd, including Bryn. Get over it or open a CRT, because you have a lot of stuffs to remove then, basically the whole page really.

I don't need to remove anything actually, he have listed death runes because he have them, he use them in character? No because there is no time when he used them aside from when Surtr was controling him. You are the one who claim that he will use them despite never do so, you are the one claiming that the knowledge of the glasses will make him instantly stomp and wouldn't let Raikou do anything back despite the glasses never doing something like that in any of his fights, you are the one claiming that he will spam his NP despite never do so in any of his apparitions.

MUNENORI and Sigurd are still equals.

Proof of them be equals in skill? Because that Sigurd is stronger and have more experience but still lost against MHX and that Yagyu gave a hardes fight to the main group. Also, aren't you the one that claim that since that isn't panhuman Sigurd nothing from him scale to panhuman one?

Come on, you just said you didn't read the summer camp. And ge won against the dragons didn't he? Are you trying to guess the content of the fight?

Yeah, I still didn't readed it, you readed it? Because in that case could you please show a screenshot of when he used death runes, NP spam or abused his knowledge to absolutely win his fights? I'm waiting.

And yes, we won against the dragons, but if he used death runes wouldn't had instantly killed them or let them near death so the fight would had be extremely more easy than how ended going? Same with NP spam or knowledge abuse, because there was no comment saying anything about that or even a hint about such development, the fact that from the beginning didn't go him alone if he could do such things also go against said notion.

In short, you are claiming a lot of things without show examples of said things happening in fights

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Why is everyone talking about skills? It was a power comparison and a rhetorical way to prove that servantverse scaling doesn't work since it would put mhx above munenori, who's leagues above pre shimousa musashi, who's leagues above mhx. Sigurd skill are still as described on his profile, eclipsing sherlock Holmes fighting defensively, despite him having a B++ ranked skill reaching the level of a NP for his combat skills.

Cuz I like to, and it's what I'm here to comment on.

And also because skill is often relevant in fate matches, and because, as this discussion is proving, the profiles alone don't contain all the relevant information about it.

Bro, his servantverse version and Space Ishtar are able to even cut neutrinos irrc, they are skill broken.

True Which I can totally scale Musashi to yayyyyyyy

Is Spishtar a skilled character? I know nothing about her but she didn't give me that vibe.
Then again, the gods do, by default, scale very high in skill going off of Hozoin, Scathach, the Sword Saints, and Karna's statements.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Considering that Ishtar (or by Spishtar case, Astarte) is Goddess of War, then she's likely skilled very well

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Is Spishtar a skilled character? I know nothing about her but she didn't give me that vibe.
Then again, the gods do, by default, scale very high in skill going off of Hozoin, Scathach, the Sword Saints, and Karna's statements.

Good Ishtar received training from Yagyu from an early age and Yagyu himself explicitly state that she already surpassed him, Bad Ishtar was also quite skilled from the beginning do to all the training she did to avenge her father but when she faced Good Ishtar who skill stomped her both of them resonated between them and as result they grew in skill even more to surpass the other, at the end the Bad Ishtar grew until the point in which she defeated the Good Ishtar, later both of them fused to return to their complete state.

So in short, yes, Space Ishtar is crazy skilled.

 

[TypeOU]

I don't need to remove anything actually, he have listed death runes because he have them, he use them in character? No because there is no time when he used them aside from when Surtr was controling him. You are the one who claim that he will use them despite never do so, you are the one claiming that the knowledge of the glasses will make him instantly stomp and wouldn't let Raikou do anything back despite the glasses never doing something like that in any of his fights, you are the one claiming that he will spam his NP despite never do so in any of his apparitions.

Proof of them be equals in skill? Because that Sigurd is stronger and have more experience but still lost against MHX and that Yagyu gave a hardes fight to the main group. Also, aren't you the one that claim that since that isn't panhuman Sigurd nothing from him scale to panhuman one?

Yeah, I still didn't readed it, you readed it? Because in that case could you please show a screenshot of when he used death runes, NP spam or abused his knowledge to absolutely win his fights? I'm waiting.

And yes, we won against the dragons, but if he used death runes wouldn't had instantly killed them or let them near death so the fight would had be extremely more easy than how ended going? Same with NP spam or knowledge abuse, because there was no comment saying anything about that or even a hint about such development, the fact that from the beginning didn't go him alone if he could do such things also go against said notion.

In short, you are claiming a lot of things without show examples of said things happening in fights

I'm talking about his battle skills. Those are most definitively listed.

Multiple days into the debate and you're still not aware that my whole point is that scaling a servantverse character to his panhuman counterpart is stupid? I swear you're just ignoring my messages at this point.

For the millionth time, not once did I mention that sigurd and MUNENORI are equal in skills.

You do know if neither of us can prove his fighting style, the assumption that "smart character fight smart" would be the most likely one?

And again, you don't have a single idea about how the fights went, because it's a video game. He also explicitly stated that he was weakened and should have been able to take them all by himself, so the point that "he didn't take them solo" is also moot.

Cuz I like to, and it's what I'm here to comment on.

And also because skill is often relevant in fate matches, and because, as this discussion is proving, the profiles alone don't contain all the relevant information about it.

My point is, I didn't compare MUNENORI and Sigurd skills even once, yet you both seem to assume that I did.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

My point is, I didn't compare MUNENORI and Sigurd skills even once, yet you both seem to assume that I did.

Ah, apologies then, that was a misunderstanding on my part

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bump!!