MGS4 Raiden blocked Outer Heaven feat rescaling

[EastofEden07]

This is the Outer Heaven scaling I recalculated a month ago. According to this calculation, MGS4 Raiden can be scaled to Low 7-B, and all members of Winds of Destruction can be scaled to at least Low 7-B level. I hope it can be adopted.(Since I am not familiar with how to use Fandom Wiki, I used Reddit to scale this performance.)

 

[Dalesean027]

This is the Outer Heaven scaling I recalculated a month ago. According to this calculation, MGS4 Raiden can be scaled to Low 7-B, and all members of Winds of Destruction can be scaled to at least Low 7-B level. I hope it can be adopted.(Since I am not familiar with how to use Fandom Wiki, I used Reddit to scale this performance.)

So to start here you'd need to create a calculation blog using your calc here and just transfer all the work into it here.

As you're not allowed to create a Content revision thread using only off site links with no new scans and evidences for the change being there only. So go to the fandom vs wiki page, go to yor profile and create a blog there then re insert that into the OP then we'll be able to go more in detail here regarding your calculation here


Also great work doing all of this, I'll give you my full thoughts when you've dont that initial bit I've suggested

 

[EastofEden07]

So to start here you'd need to create a calculation blog using your calc here and judt transfer all the work into it here.

As you're not allowed to create a Content revision thread using only off site links with no new scans and evidences for the chsnge being there only. So go to the fandom vs wiki page, go to yor profile and create a blog there then re insert that into the OP then we'll be able to go more in detail here regarding your calculation here


Also great work doing all of this, I'll give you my full thoughts when you've dont that initial bit I've suggested

I understand what you mean, but the problem is that I don’t know how to create a blog and put the calculation inside the blog. I use a mobile phone, which is a bit difficult for me
I need someone to help me move the calculations to the blog

 

[Dalesean027]

I understand what you mean, but the problem is that I don’t know how to create a blog and put the calculation inside the blog. I use a mobile phone, which is a bit difficult for me
I need someone to help me move the calculations to the blog

I understand fandom on mobile can isn't the best unless you're just viewing things trust me I know so I'll just provide you my most immediate thoughts right now instead.

The whole premise of saying well its more advanced so it HAS to be able to replicate the feat of the less advanced thing doesn't really work without sufficient evidences to support that claim, one example I can give off the top of my head would be like in the MCU how the civil war armor is more advanced than Mark 7 armor yet is canonically worse even though it has better tech. Now obviously this isn't the MCU but the core doesn't really give any reason to scale Outer Haven to Arsenal Gears KE. Now we already know Arsenal Gear is canonically considered trash anyways and they make it very clear too but regardless of that lets get into my other problems.

My first other problem with this calc is that it uses arsenal gears measurements instead of Outer Haven's measurements for the calc when the feat in question is supposed to be the KE of Outer haven which has completely different measurements than arsenal gear so that doesn't work either. The calc also doesn't take into account for Raiden's own surface area compared to that of the area of the ship he's having to push back as he isn't being crushed by the full area of the ship.


don't forget we have this official height chart from Konami that has all the dimensions of OH with its length being 640m, width being 135m, and height being 140m tall so using those you should be able to calculate a suitable volume for its weight with much more accurate measurements instead of making assumptions here that don't really hold up for this

 

[Chariot190]

I use a mobile phone

My condolences dog, fandom on mobile is ******* ass

Also yeah, the main issue with the calc is just that, the size is completely wrong, and thus, so is the mass. We have official dimensions for every MG, as Dale posted because I told him

While we don't have many canon weights beyond like MSX ones, PW, and Shago, the way to calc the mass is false as the dimensions given to obtain it are too.

 

[Unknownnah]

Now we already know Arsenal Gear is canonically considered trash anyways and they make it very clear too

0:40

Solidus literally explains how Arsenal's size is more of a detriment than an advantage. He even calls it a gigantic coffin.

 

[EastofEden07]

I understand fandom on mobile can isn't the best unless you're just viewing things trust me I know so I'll just provide you my most immediate thoughts right now instead.

The whole premise of saying well its more advanced so it HAS to be able to replicate the feat of the less advanced thing doesn't really work without sufficient evidences to support that claim, one example I can give off the top of my head would be like in the MCU how the civil war armor is more advanced than Mark 7 armor yet is canonically worse even though it has better tech. Now obviously this isn't the MCU but the core doesn't really give any reason to scale Outer Haven to Arsenal Gears KE. Now we already know Arsenal Gear is canonically considered trash anyways and they make it very clear too but regardless of that lets get into my other problems.

Sir thx for your reply,I have summarized some conclusions.Can you see if this makes sense?
Regarding this calculation, the main factor is the performance of AG crushing the block with the residual kinetic energy brought by the power output. Because the military description of MGS is closer to reality, referring to the iteration of the real Battleship, the power output of the iteration is often stronger than the old model, and the same is true for OH as the iteration of AG.Even if not, I think their power output should be the same at the minimum.

My first other problem with this calc is that it uses arsenal gears measurements instead of Outer Haven's measurements for the calc when the feat in question is supposed to be the KE of Outer haven which has completely different measurements than arsenal gear so that doesn't work either. The calc also doesn't take into account for Raiden's own surface area compared to that of the area of the ship he's having to push back as he isn't being crushed by the full area of the ship.

Regarding measurements, this was my oversight. I forgot that OH and AG have different measurements.The reason I didn't calculate Raiden's own surface area and the area of the ship he's having to push back is because I calculated the residual kinetic energy from the OH/AG. After discussing with my friend, I think that Raiden took on the kinetic energy from the impact of the OH in this feat.

don't forget we have this official height chart from Konami that has all the dimensions of OH with its length being 640m, width being 135m, and height being 140m tall so using those you should be able to calculate a suitable volume for its weight with much more accurate measurements instead of making assumptions here that don't really hold up for this

Thank you very much for the information you provided. I will use it as a basis for recalculating this feat.

 

[EastofEden07]

@Chariot190 @Dalesean027 btw I have a small question,Kevin is mentioned that HF Blade can disrupts any atoms it comes into contact with, can this be calculated as an atom smash or annihilation feat? I want to use the formula for Sam's feat of splitting Ray in two

 

[Chariot190]

No, it's like weird sci-fi jargon. It wouldn't even be an upgrade either. It's just hax.

Btw, OH has a stated speed, if ya want to do KE stuff, use that, Meryl says it at some point, forget the exact value but it was like 30-60 knots idk. I just know she says as much.

 

[Unknownnah]

0:20

Mei Ling: "Haven is headed southward through the Pacific at a speed of 33 knots."

 

[Chariot190]

0:20

Mei Ling: "Haven is headed southward through the Pacific at a speed of 33 knots."

Yeah that

 

[EastofEden07]

No, it's like weird sci-fi jargon. It wouldn't even be an upgrade either. It's just hax.

Btw, OH has a stated speed, if ya want to do KE stuff, use that, Meryl says it at some point, forget the exact value but it was like 30-60 knots idk. I just know she says as much.

My calculation for OH focuses on the energy from its engine power output, so I probably won't use speed as a calculation consideration.Because the main focus is on AG's crushing destruction of the block,Regarding whether AG's scaling can be applied to OH, I explained this in my reply above (Reference to the Battleship irl), but I will recalculate based on the official dimensions of OH

 

[Chariot190]

Because the main focus is on AG's crushing destruction of the block

That doesn't scale to anything? That was a byproduct of its tremendous size and velocity.

the power output of the iteration is often stronger than the old model, and the same is true for OH as the iteration of AG.Even if not, I think their power output should be the same at the minimum.

That simply isn't true, newer iterations don't always, and usually don't, have "higher power" engines, it's an efficiency and cost thing. Why spend money making a super ultra-powerful engine for a sub when it isn't needed? It's a balancing act. It's as strong as it needs to be for what it does. That's even the case in MGS, and why some MGS have smaller or weaker aspects, engines, and capabilities than previous models.

We have no reason to believe that oh is equal to AG, we already know its size and cruise speed is less, given its smaller size, it'd by proxy require a smaller engine too.
And power output, doesn't actually matter.
When you stop say, a speeding car, you don't calc the engine's hypothetical limit and work, ya calculate the work needed to stop its KE.
The actual engine doesn't affect Raiden's feat, what you want to find out is oh's KE in that moment, and the work Raiden did to stop it nigh-instantly. That, would be what he scales to, as that's the energy he exerted to stop its momentum. Trying to find his durability or anything else ain't worth it because ISL would make it like 100000x less than the full yield.

Which is to say, correct the dimensions, and calc Raiden halting it. It will almost certainly still be an upgrade, especially given oh is surprisingly non-hollow.

 

[EastofEden07]

That doesn't scale to anything? That was a byproduct of its tremendous size and velocity.

Welp, understood

That simply isn't true, newer iterations don't always, and usually don't, have "higher power" engines, it's an efficiency and cost thing. Why spend money making a super ultra-powerful engine for a sub when it isn't needed? It's a balancing act. It's as strong as it needs to be for what it does. That's even the case in MGS, and why some MGS have smaller or weaker aspects, engines, and capabilities than previous models.

We have no reason to believe that oh is equal to AG, we already know its size and cruise speed is less, given its smaller size, it'd by proxy require a smaller engine too.
And power output, doesn't actually matter.
When you stop say, a speeding car, you don't calc the engine's hypothetical limit and work, ya calculate the work needed to stop its KE.
The actual engine doesn't affect Raiden's feat, what you want to find out is oh's KE in that moment, and the work Raiden did to stop it nigh-instantly. That, would be what he scales to, as that's the energy he exerted to stop its momentum. Trying to find his durability or anything else ain't worth it because ISL would make it like 100000x less than the full yield.

Which is to say, correct the dimensions, and calc Raiden halting it. It will almost certainly still be an upgrade, especially given oh is surprisingly non-hollow.

If fact,compared with the actual naval ships, the next generation of battle ships will keep the power the same or slightly reduce it even if the weight is reduced (such as CVN-65 and CVN-68, CVN-68 only uses two nuclear-powered engines, CVN-65 uses eight), so AG and OH should be the same.This is my personal argument, I don’t know if you can accept it.Based on what I said above, can I use the calculated value of OH to apply it to AG’s destructive feat? Of course, based on the calculated value of OH, the TNT equivalent produced will inevitably be reduced.
Btw what formula can I currently use to upgrade Raiden's feat?

 

[Chariot190]

If fact,compared with the actual naval ships, the next generation of battle ships will keep the power the same or slightly reduce it even if the weight is reduced (such as CVN-65 and CVN-68, CVN-68 only uses two nuclear-powered engines, CVN-65 uses eight), so AG and OH should be the same.This is my personal argument, I don’t know if you can accept it.Based on what I said above, can I use the calculated value of OH to apply it to AG’s destructive feat?

I'm not saying it never happens, but it isn't exactly common. Especially mere years apart mind you. The thing with AG too was, it was just bad, it was far too big, cumbersome, and inefficient, figuring what they put into oh from it, is kinda tough given how assbackwards it was.

AG and OH have many differences, OH's purpose isn't to be this giant KE beast. It's smaller, and we can safely say the engine isn't 1:1 given despite being smaller, it's also not way quicker, yet if it had the same horsepower and whatnot, it should be exponentially quicker than AG, due to having the same engine yet having less mass., aka it'd go brrrrr better, a lot better actually, it should be like 10x quicker.

This also falls under calc stacking, sorry, but unless we have a direct statement confirming it, we can't go about it this way.

Of course, based on the calculated value of OH, the TNT equivalent produced will inevitably be reduced.

It is what it is, we should be accurate first and foremost, an upgrade is cool, but the upgrade shouldn't involve hypotheticals.

Btw what formula can I currently use to upgrade Raiden's feat?

Just doing what I said above will almost 100% result in at least some sort of upgrade from the current calc, especially given how non-hollow oh is (ya can tell just by looking at the in-game map and schematics, shit dense af).

 

[EastofEden07]

Just doing what I said above will almost 100% result in at least some sort of upgrade from the current calc, especially given how non-hollow oh is (ya can tell just by looking at the in-game map and schematics, shit dense af).

I'm not familiar with this aspect of calculations. Where should I start? Recalculate battleship mass?

 

[Chariot190]

Mass via dimensions yes.

 

[EastofEden07]

Mass via dimensions yes.

Btw, I have a question, the Metal Gear Peace Walker's internal barrier armor is mentioned to requires the use of nuclear bombs to destroy, and the later MG Rex's armor is explicitly mentioned to be the most advanced, so can I scale the MG Peace Walker's armor to the MG Rex and other more advanced Metal Gear? (such as Excelsus)

 

[Chariot190]

Would need to see the exact statement for REX.

But there's always the issue of ISL. Tanking a nuke even 10m away, drops the value by nearly 1000x. At the very least it'd be ludicrous heat res, but for dura, we need to know how close PW would be in this hypothetical.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Btw, I have a question, the Metal Gear Peace Walker's internal barrier armor is mentioned to requires the use of nuclear bombs to destroy, and the later MG Rex's armor is explicitly mentioned to be the most advanced, so can I scale the MG Peace Walker's armor to the MG Rex and other more advanced Metal Gear? (such as Excelsus)

Excelsus isn't actually a Metal Gear model, it just has the name for Brand Recognition and Marketing purposes as explained in the Codec calls.

 

[EastofEden07]

Would need to see the exact statement for REX.

But there's always the issue of ISL. Tanking a nuke even 10m away, drops the value by nearly 1000x. At the very least it'd be ludicrous heat res, but for dura, we need to know how close PW would be in this hypothetical.

Here

 

[EastofEden07]

Excelsus isn't actually a Metal Gear model, it just has the name for Brand Recognition and Marketing purposes as explained in the Codec calls.

Even if it is not a real Metal Gear, the manufacturing years of PW and Excelsus are more than 30 years apart. Based on modern materials science, I don’t think Excelsus's armor will be weaker than PW in defense.

 

[Chariot190]

Prob not good enough, using the latest advances in compound armor, doesn't mean it's 1:1 durable with PW's inner shell. Advances can mean many things, i'd say a possibly/likely could have worked, but Hal immediately turns around and say high HEAT rounds can penetrate it, and they obviously ain't on par with a nuke. f he didn't immediately cap it below nuke lv, a possibly could've been warranted. And hell, it might even be true still, PW's tanking is vague as it is given ISL.

Excelsus armor being made of CNT is why Armstrong punching it, is nuke lv to begin with it, so that kinda solved itself. Should be 2x higher tho than the current calc.

 

[EastofEden07]

Excelsus armor being made of CNT is why Armstrong punching it, is nuke lv to begin with it, so that kinda solved itself. Should be 2x higher tho than the current calc.

In fact, the CNT in the MG world view has been strengthened. There are many evidences that show that (for example, Excelsus was unhurt after being thrown over the shoulder by Raiden, or that it has certain defensive properties against HF Blade). According to the actual strength of CNT, Ray will The moment he jumps high, all the CNTs in his body will fall apart

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, it's why I said it should be 2x higher, the current hypothetical for CNT is 200Gpa, not 100Gpa, which is what the calc uses.

 

[EastofEden07]

I personally think that the defense of MG Excelsus is theoretically very likely to be stronger than that of PW. As the latest MG, there is no reason why it should be weaker than the Old MG thirty years ago.

 

[EastofEden07]

Yeah, it's why I said it should be 2x higher, the current hypothetical for CNT is 200Gpa, not 100Gpa, which is what the calc uses.

In fact, it is far more than 2x, probably 10x or more

 

[Chariot190]

We can't just assume that without a statement, could be 1.1x, could be 1000x, or anything inbetween. It'd be complete conjecture and guesswork. It's why we go with the highest known limit as that's provable.

I personally think that the defense of MG Excelsus is theoretically very likely to be stronger than that of PW. As the latest MG, there is no reason why it should be weaker than the Old MG thirty years ago.

Lad, we don't even know how strong PW's is, it was stated to be able to withstand a nuke, but unless it was actively touching said nuke when it went off, it wouldn't make it scale to the full yeild. Even just being 10m away from a nuke exploding, would make PW 7-C at best. Something like 100m and it wouldn't even be 8-A.

ISL is a bitch, but it is what it is. Then we also need to know, how strong are the "nukes" in question? Most nukes are below what Excel is at, megaton lv nukes aren't exactly common. Even in MGS, take REX's nukes, they're in the kiloton lv range.

 

[Dalesean027]

I share chariots thoughts here exactly as well

 

[EastofEden07]

We can't just assume that without a statement, could be 1.1x, could be 1000x, or anything inbetween. It'd be complete conjecture and guesswork. It's why we go with the highest known limit as that's provable.

Later I will calculate how many times MG’s CNT has been enhanced, so stay tuned

 

[EastofEden07]

Btw, I recently found Excelsus on MGR’s jp dub version, Its way to Pakistan is to start digging tunnels in North America until it reaches Pakistan(seems like) and the Excelsus also mentioned in MG Wiki has the function of digging tunnels

 

[Chariot190]

Btw, I recently found Excelsus on MGR’s jp dub version, Its way to Pakistan is to start digging tunnels in North America until it reaches Pakistan(seems like) and the Excelsus also mentioned in MG Wiki has the function of digging tunnels

It'd only be ike 8-A-low 7-C. Unless it did it all in literally 1 second/1 attack, but we know that isn't the case.

 

[EastofEden07]

It'd only be ike 8-A-low 7-C. Unless it did it all in literally 1 second/1 attack, but we know that isn't the case.

It seems to have taken three hours and the distance is 12,000+ kilometers, which means it can move at a speed of more than Mach 2 per hour.

 

[Chariot190]

That's notable, might be a KE feat if that's true. Maybe can divide the damage by timeframe.

 

[EastofEden07]

Also, considering that MG Excelsus cannot have an attack speed as fast as one attack per second, the standard should be one hit in 3 to 5 seconds.

 

[EastofEden07]

I'm going to bed first. After I will sort out the details of this feat slowly.

 

[EastofEden07]

@Chariot190 hey sir,I have a question about Raiden's kinetic energy calculation.This seems to violate Vsbw's rules regarding kinetic energy.

There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

In this case, why is this calculation still enabled?

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 hey sir,I have a question about Raiden's kinetic energy calculation.This seems to violate Vsbw's rules regarding kinetic energy.


In this case, why is this calculation still enabled?

It has a few issues, we're probably gonna get rid of it and replace it with FTL blade mode
But wanna get calcs done first, I'm not a fan of just removing shit and leaving the profile bare, best to actually find an alternative first. The feat, btw, is still good, it's just hyper-inflated, probably more like High 7-C (and given the APC made of CNT literally puffs into smoke if it hits him, it def has some **** ass energy behind it).

So yeah that does mean a downgrade in AP down to like 400kt (speed upgrade trade off tho), but I have a potential back up feat anyway that might be good? Could be low 7-B.