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Metal Gear Rising Scaling Changes

Shmeatywerbenmanjenson

Shmeatywerbenmanjenson

4,716
4,140
Well now that we have gotten done with the 7-B upgrades I feel now is a good time to sort out who for sure scales to it.
Also since we seem to be having this problem in the comments
RIPPER MODE IS ONLY AN AP AND SPEED INCREASE NOT A DURABILITY INCREASE!!!!!!!!!!!
Calc for Reference
vsbattles.fandom.com

Raiden vs APC

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Scales Fully to 7-B​

Senator Armstrong​

I really don't think I need to explain this one.

Raiden​

Should be comparable to his durability. No evidence against him scaling to his dura.

Jetstream Sam​

Managed to Injure Raiden with only his fists

Monsoon​

Can Throw boxcar's at Raiden with 23 megatons of kinetic energy.
Can Injure Raiden by kicking him as well as throwing himself at him.



Scales Possibly to 7-B​

Blade Wolf​

Managed to harm Raiden with his claws and knives though it is unknown if this was with High Frequency weaponry

Mistral​

Should be Stronger than Blade Wolf
As a Wind Of Destruction member she has to have fought Armstrong in order to join

Sundowner​

Is the Leader of the Winds Of Destruction, all of which had to have fought and be deemed "Worthy" by Armstrong

Khamsin​

Is able to fight against Blade Wolf

One More Thing​

That's about it for the 7-B scaling but we still have one more change we need to make.
It turns out Armstrong has reason to scale to the Relativistic rating of Raiden due to being able to catch his sword in the middle of his Ripper mode enhanced Blade mode.


This kinda screws with the established speed scaling so I propose a "Possibly Relativistic" Rating.

Well that's all for now so lets go ahead and discuss
 
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But even ignoring that, there's a minor issue in the calc itself and I'm not sure if we wanna handwave that or not.
 
Chariot190 said:
I have, multiple times, let's not pretend we haven't gone through this already.
Click to expand...
Yes, and multiple times I have refuted your point yet you seem to not care.
Chariot190 said:
The Boxer visibly decelerates when it gets close to Raiden without Raiden having actually made contact with it.
Ngl it's actually pretty noticeable.
Click to expand...
That's likely due to either gameplay mechanics or Raiden's perception increasing. Does it change the point that it traveled said distance in said amount of time before that? No, no it doesn't. Point refuted
 
Anyway, because you basically end up with a chain that gets Raiden's base AP scaling to his RM AP, that's why I disagree.
Hell I'd be fine with his durability scaling, but the moment that starts scaling to everything, and then ultimately scales back to his base's AP, we have an issue.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
This kinda screws with the established speed scaling so I propose a "Possibly Relativistic" Rating.
Click to expand...
Basically this, except instead of speed, it's AP.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Yes, and multiple times I have refuted your point yet you seem to not care.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't really call you ultimately ignoring the very blatant issue and cherry picking as a proper refute.
The proposal you have would ultimately circle back around and have Raiden's Base AP scale to his RM's AP, this is an issue, because that is a paradoxical inconsistency, and goes against the very well established fact reflected in both statements and gameplay, that Raiden's AP increases dramatically when in RM.
Yes, you aren't wrong, it should scale to his durability, but then you're going a step further and scaling it to everyone else, who Raiden then scales to in base, and bam, now Raiden's Base = RM.
This can't happen.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
That's likely due to either gameplay mechanics or Raiden's perception increasing.
Click to expand...
No? It just decelerates? It isn't gameplay mechanics, nothing indicates as such (And even if it was, you'd still have to take it into account as you're calculating a feat that happens in game-play in the first place, utilizing a gameplay mechanic to get it as high as it is to begin with), or implies, it just kinda does? So you have to take it into account.
And no, "Raiden's perception increasing" isn't what's happening, the rain and everything else stays the same, their speed doesn't change, just the object itself being thrown slows down a bit. And that's also complete headcanon, RM is a 10x amp, nothing more, nothing less, he's in permanent RM throughout that whole boss so it's not changing or going up or down, if he's in Blade Mode, it's a flat 10x, arguing it's actually getting higher is kind of ridiculous.
Does it change the point that it traveled said distance in said amount of time before that? No, no it doesn't. Point refuted
Click to expand...
Yes actually? It'd make the peak KE HIGHER than what you have, as it covered that distance while also decelerating (Meaning higher initial velocity, lower end velocity), so the initial speed is actually higher, thus the initial KE is higher, but inversely it means the KE at the end when Raiden slices it or gets hit by it is proportionally lower. Technically a Monsoon upgrade but a slight Raiden downgrade.
I'm actually kinda surprised you'd even say such a thing, you didn't refute anything, you kinda just ignored basic KE.
 
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Chariot190 said:
Anyway, because you basically end up with a chain that gets Raiden's base AP scaling to his RM AP, that's why I disagree.
Hell I'd be fine with his durability scaling, but the moment that starts scaling to everything, and then ultimately scales back to his base's AP, we have an issue.
Click to expand...
I am about to ******* claw my eyes out if people keep bringing this up. Ripper mode does not increase Durability therefore if they can hurt his base they scale to at LEAST 7-B
Chariot190 said:
I wouldn't really call you ultimately ignoring the very blatant issue and cherry picking as a proper refute.
The proposal you have would ultimately circle back around and have Raiden's Base AP scale to his RM's AP, this is an issue, because that is a paradoxical inconsistency, and goes against the very well established fact reflected in both statements and gameplay, that Raiden's AP increases dramatically when in RM.
Yes, you aren't wrong, it should scale to his durability, but then you're going a step further and scaling it to everyone else, who Raiden then scales to in base, and bam, now Raiden's Base = RM.
This can't happen.
Click to expand...
See point above
Chariot190 said:
No? It just decelerates? It isn't gameplay mechanics, nothing indicates as such (And even if it was, you'd still have to take it into account as you're calculating a feat that happens in game-play in the first place, utilizing a gameplay mechanic to get it as high as it is to begin with), or implies, it just kinda does? So you have to take it into account.
And no, "Raiden's perception increasing" isn't what's happening, the rain and everything else stays the same, their speed doesn't change, just the object itself being thrown slows down a bit. And that's also complete headcanon, RM is a 10x amp, nothing more, nothing less, he's in permanent RM throughout that whole boss so it's not changing or going up or down, if he's in Blade Mode, it's a flat 10x, arguing it's actually getting higher is kind of ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Is it really that hard to believe that A. Raiden's perception increases at the moment they get close to him or that they designed it like that so you could have time to cut the boxcar's and the rains speed not changing was disregarded or B. That Monsoon was feeling bad for Raiden and decided to decelerate the cars just before they hit Raiden just because? Which sounds more plausible?
Chariot190 said:
Yes actually? It'd make the peak KE HIGHER than what you have, as it covered that distance while also decelerating (Meaning higher initial velocity, lower end velocity), so the initial speed is actually higher, thus the initial KE is higher, but inversely it means the KE at the end when Raiden slices it or gets hit by it is proportionally lower. Technically a Monsoon upgrade but a slight Raiden downgrade.
I'm actually kinda surprised you'd even say such a thing, you didn't refute anything, you kinda just ignored basic KE.
Click to expand...
No, actually it would downgrade it wrongly by quite a bit. It moving the 4 extra meters would pale in comparison to the seconds it it adds. It takes 10s of seconds to reach Raiden 4 meters away which would absolutely TANK the velocity. So no it would not upgrade nor provide any use.
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
I am about to ******* claw my eyes out if people keep bringing this up. Ripper mode does not increase Durability therefore if they can hurt his base they scale to at LEAST 7-B
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter, your proposed scaling circles back around.
We get an infinite loop of RM > Base = RM > Base = RM > Base = etc. Nobody is saying his durability gets better, we know it doesn't, but it ends up scaling back to his base's AP, then we get RM = Base, which is a paradox, like you aren't wrong, but your end result is a contradiction even if the steps to get there aren't wrong by themselves.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
See point above
Click to expand...
You're just going "it doesnt amp durability", yes, sure that isn't wrong, but there's stipulations.
You're ignoring a major caveat and ignoring how it circles back around in scaling.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Is it really that hard to believe that A. Raiden's perception increases at the moment they get close to him or that they designed it like that so you could have time to cut the boxcar's and the rains speed not changing was disregarded
Click to expand...
Yes. Because that literally isn't how it works. Please do not insert your headcanon into this.
Ripper Mode is a 10x amp in Blade Mode. You are arguing that it was 10x, but then SUDDENLY got even higher. No, this is not how it works, it's just a 10x amp, nothing more, nothing less, it does not change nor is it stated to, furthermore, everything else, from the rain, to, well, everything else? Didn't slow down, it was just the boxer. So it isn't the perception changing randomly and breaking established lore and what not, it's the boxer that's changing.

Perhaps they did design it like that, but so? That doesn't change the fact it still happens. They're intent for many things, but just because there's a developer reason for why that might be, it doesn't mean you can ignore it happen and try to use the KE a second before, when the KE then, and the KE now, are not the same. That is simply not how it works. You want to calc a gameplay feat? That is fine. But actually calc it properly.
or B. That Monsoon was feeling bad for Raiden and decided to decelerate the cars just before they hit Raiden just because? Which sounds more plausible?
Click to expand...
Or maybe they just lose momentum 🤷‍♂️
None of this matters though, it could be this, it could be that, or anything in between, fact of the matter is it does decelerate, the velocity at which it hits Raiden is not the same as in your calc. Nor is the velocity used the initial velocity tbh.
You're basically using a mean average when that speed isn't actually relevant at any point.

Calc the speed when it's at its max, bam, slap that on Monsoon's peak AP. Calc the speed when it hits Raiden, bam, his durability.
You can make excuses for why it might be like that (perception isn't one of them tho), but at the end of the day, it doesn't change the fact it happens.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
No, actually it would downgrade it wrongly by quite a bit. It moving the 4 extra meters would pale in comparison to the seconds it it adds. It takes 10s of seconds to reach Raiden 4 meters away which would absolutely TANK the velocity. So no it would not upgrade nor provide any use.
Click to expand...
Hmm? I said upgrade for Monsoon? While its end velocity is slower, inversely it means the maximum speed itself is higher, and Monsoon scales to that for AP.
And 10s of seconds? I mean obviously if ya just stand there, but what matters is when he can cut it, the quickest you can cut it off when it starts to slow down is like barely even a second so it still retains most of its speed. It's honestly not that big a downgrade mate.
But even then, let's say hypothetically the feat is completely ******, would it matter? It's best to be accurate, wanking a feat for big number isn't good for anyone or anything.

Honestly I've been thinking calcing Armstrong tossing EXCEL's leg would probably be better, it has far, far, far more mass, when it hits Raiden it also goes poof in a puff of smoke, so that's both CNT pulverization can be used for its destruction atop of direct durability scaling based on its KE, and best of all, it can be done in base so we don't have this whole RM bullshit issue, it'd just flat out scale to everything give or take. And Raiden can bisect chunks of it too so that's AP and KE for himself as well.

Anyway I'll check back tomorrow, almost 1am.
 
Last edited:
Chariot190 said:
Doesn't matter, your proposed scaling circles back around.
We get an infinite loop of RM > Base = RM > Base = RM > Base = etc. Nobody is saying his durability gets better, we know it doesn't, but it ends up scaling back to his base's AP, then we get RM = Base, which is a paradox, like you aren't wrong, but your end result is a contradiction even if the steps to get there aren't wrong by themselves.

You're just going "it doesnt amp durability", yes, sure that isn't wrong, but there's stipulations.
You're ignoring a major caveat and ignoring how it circles back around in scaling.
Click to expand...
RM>Base in speed. RM>Base in power. RM=Base when it comes to durability. No circular scaling, if they can hurt base Raiden the get 7-B. If your saying that since he can hit harder he should get a higher durability then that is simply no true. The guidebooks itself only describe it as an increase in speed in power. Ripper mode can be equal to base in certain areas and still not create a circular scaling chain, plenty of characters do this in fact. You have yet to provide a valid reason as to how you found this supposed "Paradox". All your saying is "I read your scaling changes and it Creates a paradox where Ripper Mode is equal to Base" without actually explaining how what I proposed does that, your just going in circles.
Chariot190 said:
Yes. Because that literally isn't how it works. Please do not insert your headcanon into this.
Ripper Mode is a 10x amp in Blade Mode. You are arguing that it was 10x, but then SUDDENLY got even higher. No, this is not how it works, it's just a 10x amp, nothing more, nothing less, it does not change nor is it stated to, furthermore, everything else, from the rain, to, well, everything else? Didn't slow down, it was just the boxer. So it isn't the perception changing randomly and breaking established lore and what not, it's the boxer that's changing.

Perhaps they did design it like that, but so? That doesn't change the fact it still happens. They're intent for many things, but just because there's a developer reason for why that might be, it doesn't mean you can ignore it happen and try to use the KE a second before, when the KE then, and the KE now, are not the same. That is simply not how it works. You want to calc a gameplay feat? That is fine. But actually calc it properly.

Or maybe they just lose momentum 🤷‍♂️
None of this matters though, it could be this, it could be that, or anything in between, fact of the matter is it does decelerate, the velocity at which it hits Raiden is not the same as in your calc. Nor is the velocity used the initial velocity tbh.
You're basically using a mean average when that speed isn't actually relevant at any point.
Click to expand...
My "Headcannon" Is just using common sense to dictate why it slowed down. And my reasoning was gameplay reasons or Raiden's perception increasing. If you use that logic we end up getting 7-B fodder enemies because the can injure Raiden, do you see how that can screw thing up? Also losing momentum?? Losing Hundreds of times mach in a few microseconds? I'm sorry but that's how momentum loss works. Once again this is best chalked up to gameplay reasons.

Chariot190 said:
Honestly I've been thinking calcing Armstrong tossing EXCEL's leg would probably be better, it has far, far, far more mass, when it hits Raiden it also goes poof in a puff of smoke, so that's both CNT pulverization can be used for its destruction atop of direct durability scaling based on its KE, and best of all, it can be done in base so we don't have this whole RM bullshit issue, it'd just flat out scale to everything give or take. And Raiden can bisect chunks of it too so that's AP and KE for himself as well.

Anyway I'll check back tomorrow, almost 1am.
Click to expand...
Yeah, do that if you want, though the problem there is it also slows down right before Raiden. Damn momentum loss sure is crazy 🤡
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
RM>Base in speed. RM>Base in power. RM=Base when it comes to durability. No circular scaling, if they can hurt base Raiden the get 7-B. If your saying that since he can hit harder he should get a higher durability then that is simply no true. The guidebooks itself only describe it as an increase in speed in power. Ripper mode can be equal to base in certain areas and still not create a circular scaling chain, plenty of characters do this in fact. You have yet to provide a valid reason as to how you found this supposed "Paradox". All your saying is "I read your scaling changes and it Creates a paradox where Ripper Mode is equal to Base" without actually explaining how what I proposed does that, your just going in circles.
Click to expand...
You have proposed Jetstream Sam scales to this physically unaided, this in turn scales to Jetstream's own durability under third law, Raiden in base can harm Sam himself physically unaided, Raiden's base AP scales to Sam's durability, now Raiden's base is scaling to RM's AP.
RM then scales above that because RM > Base, and then it just spirals out of control from there.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
My "Headcannon" Is just using common sense to dictate why it slowed down.
Click to expand...
Still headcanon unfortunately, it could make all the sense in the world, unfortunately, you're unironically making things up that are 1. Demonstrably false (Nothing else slows down, only the tossed object, so it isn't his perception increasing). 2. His perception is 10x, no more, no less, it wouldn't increase magically because you said so.
And my reasoning was gameplay reasons or Raiden's perception increasing. If you use that logic we end up getting 7-B fodder enemies because the can injure Raiden, do you see how that can screw thing up?
Click to expand...
Uh, we already do have 7-B fodder enemies? Blade Wolf is unironically a enemy you fight normally as a enemy later on, the only difference is his AI has nearly 100b neuron count, opposed to about 3b the mass produced units have. Physically they are identical and have the same stats.
And yeah, they can injure Raiden? They're all blatantly weaker, but it ain't like they're weak, every single one of them is well and beyond 8-A/7-C. Except the fliers and dwarf gekko's, but they have reasoning beyond that as to not scale. But tbh the enemies could be like tier 9, or tier 6 or anything inbetween, that doesn't matter and is not an argument.
It's a false equivalence, just because gameplay has some bullshit layered onto it doesn't mean you ignore the gameplay when calcing a feat, in gameplay utilizing the very thing you're trying to claim is just gameplay mechanics.
Also losing momentum?? Losing Hundreds of times mach in a few microseconds? I'm sorry but that's how momentum loss works. Once again this is best chalked up to gameplay reasons.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter what the reason is, it slows down, the velocity is slower when it hits him, you either calc the feat as it's shown, or not at all. You don't get to slap a magical number that doesn't even actually occur onto the feat and try to say that's how fast the KE was when it hit him, when it literally did not happen. You aren't calcing something that happened, you're calcing something you wished happened. You can use the full value for Monsoon's peak AP tho, as it is true it had that KE at some point when tossed under his power.
Gameplay or not (Still nothing but conjecture but let's go with that for now), fact of the matter is it does slow down, if it isn't going as fast as you're proposing on impact, tough luck, you can't say that's the KE when it hit him.

And yeah sure, it lost that momentum in a few microseconds, if that's what they show, then that's unfortunately what we have to go with.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Yeah, do that if you want, though the problem there is it also slows down right before Raiden. Damn momentum loss sure is crazy 🤡
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm aware? Obviously I'd take that into account and not just stand there for a minute? I'd likely force Raiden to tank it pre-emptively. You're acting like it goes from 10 to 0 instantly, it does not, it's a process, it slows down, just like it does here. Just make sure Raiden slashes as soon as he gets a chance to (Thus having his AP scale to the object's KE while it's still moving), or gets hit as soon as he can, that way the object actually still has visible movement and momentum that can be quantified upon impact that we can calculate into the feat and not slap factually incorrect values onto it?
Also I'd suggest you be civil, just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't give you the right to be condescending.
 
Chariot190 said:
Honestly I've been thinking calcing Armstrong tossing EXCEL's leg would probably be better, it has far, far, far more mass, when it hits Raiden it also goes poof in a puff of smoke, so that's both CNT pulverization can be used for its destruction atop of direct durability scaling based on its KE, and best of all, it can be done in base so we don't have this whole RM bullshit issue, it'd just flat out scale to everything give or take. And Raiden can bisect chunks of it too so that's AP and KE for himself as well.
Click to expand...
Can we calc Blade Mode seeing EMP's in slow motion while were at it
 
Well this is awkward.

The 7-B calc is now on shaky grounds?

Sure it isn't a Zandatsu thing on the deceleration?
 
Last edited:
KLOL506 said:
Well this is awkward.

The 7-B calc is now on shaky grounds?

Sure it isn't a Zandatsu thing on the deceleration?
Click to expand...
I actually wanted input on this from more calc members. Yes there is a slowdown but is is after the APC travels to Raiden.
So we logically have 3 options as to what we call this, all of which have problems.
1. Deceleration, this was brought up by Chariot190. We assume that the APC decelerated right before it hit raiden. The problem with this is that is decelerates MASSIVELY within the time of a few microseconds which is why I disagree with it. Though I leave the option up to you and more calc members.
2.Raiden's perception increases. We assume that Raiden's perception increased right before the APC's collide for some reason. The problem with this is that the raindrops do not change speed whatsoever during this time, which indicates no perception increase.
3. The final and most basic reasoning, Gameplay Mechanics. We assume that they quickly make there way to Raiden and then slow down to make it possible for Raiden to cut them and to prevent waiting a long time for the APC to make it's way to Raiden.

These are the reasonings we are debating about right now, and I would appreciate if we could get more staff input on this.
Here is the clip for reference
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
I actually wanted input on this from more calc members. Yes there is a slowdown but is is after the APC travels to Raiden.
So we logically have 3 options as to what we call this, all of which have problems.
1. Deceleration, this was brought up by Chariot190. We assume that the APC decelerated right before it hit raiden. The problem with this is that is decelerates MASSIVELY within the time of a few microseconds which is why I disagree with it. Though I leave the option up to you and more calc members.
2.Raiden's perception increases. We assume that Raiden's perception increased right before the APC's collide for some reason. The problem with this is that the raindrops do not change speed whatsoever during this time, which indicates no perception increase.
3. The final and most basic reasoning, Gameplay Mechanics. We assume that they quickly make there way to Raiden and then slow down to make it possible for Raiden to cut them and to prevent waiting a long time for the APC to make it's way to Raiden.

These are the reasonings we are debating about right now, and I would appreciate if we could get more staff input on this.
Here is the clip for reference
Click to expand...

@AbaddonTheDisappointment @Dark-Carioca @Migue79 @DMUA @Therefir @Armorchompy @CloverDragon03 @DemonGodMitchAubin What do you think about this?
 
From what I remember it's speed doesn't change until it gets close to you in blade mode, so it's probably just that slow by their perception and it getting there that fast is just convenience, which is just the third point over again

I didn't see the 7-B upgrade but I probably wouldn't have agreed with it if I was pinged for it and didn't just scream my head off over that feature being used for the 87th time that microsecond on and off the forums
 
Therefir said:
This is Raiden's perception getting faster, the APC cannot simply slow down like this without ignoring the laws of inertia.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that is objectively not true.
Raiden is already in Blade Mode in RM, which is a static flat 10x increase to his perception (as stated in the guide, in decreases his perception of time down to 10%, making everything seem slow motion), it isn't gradual, it does not change, it's an instant increase (or decrease? Depends how you want to word it), this can be confirmed in every single instance throughout not just the game, but that very fight. Raiden's perception suddenly getting better is actual head canon that is unfounded by everything we know to be true.
Furthermore, the boxer is the only thing that changes velocity, Raiden's own swings of the blade do not, the droplets of water do not, even the sparks and explosions do not change speeds despite transpiring all through out.
If the only thing that slows down is the calculated object that was tossed itself and we can conclusively, without a doubt, confirm that Raiden's perception does not increase further, which is laughably easy to confirm while being able to corroborate it with other such things don't slow down even though the boxer does, implicates that his perception isn't changing but rather just a singular object is. Then no, it very well might defy numerous laws, but just because it does doesn't mean what you said is true either.
 
Last edited:
I really don't care about such nonsense, an object moving at a constant speed over an extended distance cannot suddenly slow down at the last meter without outside alterations, the burden of proof is on you to explain why this would happen.

To me this is just a cool effect added to emphasize the immense speed at which he was cutting the object, so I still recommend using the velocity at which it was moving up to that point, I have no intention of changing my opinion.
 
Last edited:
By the way, don't take that as me accepting the calc or anything, I'm just fine with using the speed at which the APC traveled most of the distance, how they got those results is none of my business.
 
Last edited:
I think it’s game mechanics provoking the slowdown, I don’t really dig 7-B MGR, but contrivances such as this are necessary because leaving the objects at the speeds they’re initially portrayed means the player would be unable to react.
 
Also, @Chariot190 I have a question.

Why would the APC decelerate when it's being hurled downwards? Unless it's meeting some massive obstacle in front of it like a huge volume of air, I see no reason why it would suddenly come to a screeching halt.
 
BTW, I see another problem in the calc.

The video is 60 FPS, and the actual yeet starts at frame number 86 (1.43 seconds at the start) and we see it slow down to a halt in front of Raiden's eyes at frame 166 (2.76 seconds).

The time difference is roughly 1.33 seconds. This is what you'd use for the apparent speed of the Boxer, as well as the duration Raiden viewed the raindrops as still for.
 
That and it seems like you didn't use the raindrops from the first video like I told you to.
 
Okay so I did a rough calc myself using the very first video only and the raindrops there and I also get City level, but much, much lower than that calc. Barely above baseline 7-B. (Not on a blog yet)

That and I am now told that Raiden can view actual EMPs in slow motion which makes this more complicated to be time dilation alone.
 
EMPs travel at the speed of light, which would make any KE calc invalid.
 
It_is_i_wyatt said:
why would the emp matter to the 7-B calc, do the 2 feats happen at the same time?
Click to expand...
It matters because if Raiden views EMPs as slow-mo with his Blade Mode but sees the APC coming at him swifter, then the APC is launching at him at FTL speed which would ruin any chance of the KE calcs being used.
 
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