Metal Gear Rising Scaling Changes

[ZillertheBucko]

tbh it'd make more sense for us to just use normal KE formula for ftl, and just ignore relativity since fiction does so 99% of the time
but also it could be a case by case basis where the verse ignores KE, or doesn't ignore relativity

 

[KLOL506]

tbh it'd make more sense for us to just use normal KE formula for ftl, and just ignore relativity since fiction does so 99% of the time

No, because when you get that close to the speed of light, mass approaches infinity itself. It is explicitly forbidden under the KE Rules and because at that speed all laws of physics break down to unusability.

but also it could be a case by case basis where the verse ignores KE, or doesn't ignore relativity

Nope, FTL KE is simply impossible. We shouldn't make up physics for shit that defies physics.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I don't think you quite understood the point of what I said but also it's not like I plan on using that logic in a crt so whatever

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

So should I go ahead and make a discussion post over the validity of the EMP?

If so we can probably go ahead and close this thread

 

[AguilaR202]

Yes because emp speeds have always been brought up in MGR.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes because emp speeds have always been brought up in MGR.

Chariot said he was gonna do it so uh...

@Chariot190

 

[Baken384]

The thing is literally called an emp why would we assume it is something else

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

does the RKE forumla work if you use FTL speed, im not talking about a RKE calculator i mean could a person take the RKE formula and get a specific number from an FTL value

 

[KLOL506]

does the RKE forumla work if you use FTL speed, im not talking about a RKE calculator i mean could a person take the RKE formula and get a specific number from an FTL value

No. KE as a whole is a no-no beyond FTL, FTL momentum is also a no-no, which RKE relies on.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

So does this invalidate all calcs that use blade mode and any future calcs that use blade mode? If so that screws alot of things up.

 

[KLOL506]

So does this invalidate all calcs that use blade mode and any future calcs that use blade mode? If so that screws alot of things up.

Only post-Ripper Mode. Not before it.

Post-ripper mode is where most of the KE calcs involving Blade Mode lie, including my one single Boxer Calc.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Wouldn't invalidate every feat done with the custom body? He's not using ripper mode in that clip you provided.

 

[KLOL506]

Wouldn't invalidate every feat done with the custom body? He's not using ripper mode in that clip you provided.

That scene is scripted to have Raiden in Ripper Mode for the entire fight no matter what you do.

And canonically speaking Raiden only sees the EMP in slow-mo in Ripper Mode. So no, this would not apply to the weaker bodies.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

That scene is scripted to have Raiden in Ripper Mode for the entire fight no matter what you do.

And canonically speaking Raiden only sees the EMP in slow-mo in Ripper Mode. So no, this would not apply to the weaker bodies.

He's not using ripper mode in that clip???
Which is before he gets to monsoon

 

[KLOL506]

He's not using ripper mode in that clip???
Which is before he gets to monsoon

Ripper Mode is scripted in the Monsoon Fight to be active the whole time, it is only after the boss fight you get to do Ripper Mode and Blade Mode separately

Raiden glows red on top of this.

 

[AguilaR202]

They were literally 120 kilotons off busting the CNT armored MG excelsus, invalidating KE only writes off 7-B

 

[AguilaR202]

And there is an overlooked feat from Armstrong where he punches the ground and creates a continuous lava flow, the most likely explanation being that he melted that much rock himself.

 

[Chariot190]

The clip being in the sewer doesn't matter, that's just because the lad was replaying a chapter with the stuff unlocked.

All it is, is RM+ The EM Grenade, which Raiden has in every chapter in the game.

(Btw, the guide explicitly points out how EMP's are very good against Monsoon, so Raiden having some on him at the time might be canon and an intended way to negate his magnetism, as the EMP's do in fact **** with his electromagnetism).

 

[ZillertheBucko]

And there is an overlooked feat from Armstrong where he punches the ground and creates a continuous lava flow, the most likely explanation being that he melted that much rock himself.

the devs forgot to take that attack out during the sam dlc so now it's uncalcable

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

The clip being in the sewer doesn't matter, that's just because the lad was replaying a chapter with the stuff unlocked.

All it is, is RM+ The EM Grenade, which Raiden has in every chapter in the game.

(Btw, the guide explicitly points out how EMP's are very good against Monsoon, so Raiden having some on him at the time might be canon and an intended way to negate his magnetism, as the EMP's do in fact **** with his electromagnetism).

Man, the EMP really throws everything out of whack. FTL travel speed Raiden is contradicted throughout the game multiple times. I'm hesitant to say this but It really does feel like an Outlier with how many times it's contradicted.

 

[KLOL506]

Man, the EMP really throws everything out of whack. FTL travel speed Raiden is contradicted throughout the game multiple times. I'm hesitant to say this but It really does feel like an Outlier with how many times it's contradicted.

This wouldn't even apply to Base Raiden and would apply explicitly to Ripper Mode New Body Raiden.

Everything else gets nerfed to dogshit because yes.

 

[Chariot190]

Man, the EMP really throws everything out of whack. FTL travel speed Raiden is contradicted throughout the game multiple times. I'm hesitant to say this but It really does feel like an Outlier with how many times it's contradicted.

Brother you're arguing 6-C and 7-A, that's more likely to be an outlier, while flimsy, at least there's other potential things that could corroborate FTL Raiden, yet nothing to corroborate Island level, not even the experimental hydrogen bombs get that high.
As odd as it might sound, there's a small handful of relativistic to SOL things throughout the verse that, while not scaling to dudes like Snake obviously, might have reason to scale to MGR. And even MGR itself has several things beyond just EMP's that would put Raiden well into the relativistic range
Because for some reason everyone keeps focusing him blitzing rain drops of all things, but not the dozen other things throughout the game. Even running some numbers on him statuing some electrical currents got relativistic.

Also nobody is arguing FTL Travel speed, obviously not the case and you'd be right, it's explicitly contradicted (He's lucky to have even hypersonic long distance movement outside of bursts), but combat speed? Reaction speed? Perception speed? That's something else altogether.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

This wouldn't even apply to Base Raiden and would apply explicitly to Ripper Mode New Body Raiden.

Everything else gets nerfed to dogshit because yes.

No, at the very least the reaction and combat speed would apply to Base Custom body Raiden. RM+BM is just the constant 10x increase of normal blade mode which Raiden can access while fighting regular enemies in base

 

[AguilaR202]

Isn’t blade mode supposed to be short burst/ combat speed
The only time you can have it indifinetely is during monsoon battle and you don’t get to move outside an area larger than a football field.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Brother you're arguing 6-C and 7-A, that's more likely to be an outlier, while flimsy, at least there's other potential things that could corroborate FTL Raiden, yet nothing to corroborate Island level, not even the experimental hydrogen bombs get that high.
As odd as it might sound, there's a small handful of relativistic to SOL things throughout the verse that, while not scaling to dudes like Snake obviously, might have reason to scale to MGR. And even MGR itself has several things beyond just EMP's that would put Raiden well into the relativistic range
Because for some reason everyone keeps focusing him blitzing rain drops of all things, but not the dozen other things throughout the game. Even running some numbers on him statuing some electrical currents got relativistic.

Also nobody is arguing FTL Travel speed, obviously not the case and you'd be right, it's explicitly contradicted (He's lucky to have even hypersonic long distance movement outside of bursts), but combat speed? Reaction speed? Perception speed? That's something else altogether

I am not arguing 7-A or 6-C that was specifically what KLOL brought up if we used relativistic KE for everything. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Chariot190]

Isn’t blade mode supposed to be short burst/ combat speed
The only time you can have it indifinetely is during monsoon battle and you don’t get to move outside an area larger than a football field.

It's combat speed, but to be exact, it's perception speed (which enables him to move at said speeds).
But it usually burns through his fuel cells by a ludicrous amount so its short burst, unless like, special circumstances occur.

I am not arguing 7-A or 6-C that was specifically what KLOL brought up if we used relativistic KE for everything. Don't put words in my mouth.

I mean, you have to use Rel KE? If that's the speed it was calculated as...
Also two of your three ends hit 7-A, and the low end is borderline 7-A

 

[KLOL506]

It's combat speed, but to be exact, it's perception speed (which enables him to move at said speeds).
But it usually burns through his fuel cells by a ludicrous amount so its short burst, unless like, special circumstances occur.

I mean, you have to use Rel KE? If that's the speed it was calculated as...
Also two of your three ends hit 7-A, and the low end is borderline 7-A

KE gets trashed if the EMP thing is accepted so uh...

 

[Baken384]

KE should be trashed

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Okay so I did a little research and the EMP type the grenade mostly resembles is a NEMP (Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulse) While not necessarily only created by nuclear weapons, it is the only one visible to the naked eye. There are three stages to a Nuclear EMP, only 1 of which is visible to the naked eye. E1, E2, and finally the E3 waves are generated. E1 waves indeed travel at relativistic speeds (Around 90% lightspeed), the second travels at similar speed to lightning. The E3 however travels at the speed of the blast wave which can vary tremendously.

Nuclear EMP Components E1, E2, E3, and what they mean...

A nuclear EMP is not just one electromagnetic pulse, but actually three, as described in this article...

modernsurvivalblog.com

Nuclear electromagnetic pulse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Electromagnetic Pulse or EMP and the E1, E2 and E3 Components

E1 vs E2 vs E3, Oh My! When a Nuclear Weapon is detonated in the atmosphere it produces Gamma Radiation which ionizes atoms in the upper atmosphere. This is typically part of the E1 Pulse. In this article we will look at the three types of energy pulse created during an Electromagnetic Pulse or...

www.empshield.com

Here is a video of Starfish Prime's blast and you'll see its resemblance to the EMP in game


Considering the futuristic setting of the game it doesn't seem far fetched to think that they have miniaturized and developed NNEMP (Non-Nuclear Electromagnetic Pulses) that can explode with the necessary conditions to create this effect. Because once again normal EMP's are not visible to the human eye, only the E3 is visible and that is due to it distorting the atmosphere. E3's only travel at the speed at which the explosion travels whether it be Nuclear or otherwise.

 

[Chariot190]

Everything you just said isn't how it's actually conveyed, and even comparing it to the thing you're trying to pass it off as, as to why it can be seen, isn't actually visually similar to begin with.

Also >human eye
Bruh, Raiden's eyes are enhanced solid eye technology.
Also nuclear technology is highly, highly, classified and illegal by the time of MGR, I don't see why a standard issue weapon would be nuclear in nature
These also **** with Monsoon's own electromagnetic attacks and magnetism btw

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Everything you just said isn't how it's actually conveyed, and even comparing it to the thing you're trying to pass it off as, as to why it can be seen, isn't actually visually similar to begin with.

Also >human eye
Bruh, Raiden's eyes are enhanced solid eye technology.
Also nuclear technology is highly, highly, classified and illegal by the time of MGR, I don't see why a standard issue weapon would be nuclear in nature
These also **** with Monsoon's own electromagnetic attacks and magnetism btw

I literally stated that they don't necessarily need to be nuclear to create those types of effects.
Also how does that not look similar to the effects of the Starfish Prime nuke? That's literally the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the video of the EMP.
However you do have a point that Raiden might be able to see electromagnetic pulses, that's valid. Though we still have the problem of lightning being visibly faster than the pulse itself.

 

[Baken384]

I literally stated that they don't necessarily need to be nuclear to create those types of effects.
Also how does that not look similar to the effects of the Starfish Prime nuke? That's literally the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the video of the EMP.
However you do have a point that Raiden might be able to see electromagnetic pulses, that's valid. Though we still have the problem of lightning being visibly faster than the pulse itself.

only believing they are NEMPs or "Starfish Prime Nuke" if they are stated to be in the game, you are pretty much spitting out headcanon here, only basing it off on looks even though it was never stated in the game to be NEMPs or a "Starfish Prime Nuke" but instead just electromagnetic pulses, you think if it was nuclear emps or it is a Starfish Prime Nuke, they would actually mention it no? Especially in Metal Gear where nuclear talks are prominent.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

only believing they are NEMPs or "Starfish Prime Nuke" if they are stated to be in the game, you are pretty much spitting out headcanon here, only basing it off on looks even though it was never stated in the game to be NEMPs or a "Starfish Prime Nuke" but instead just electromagnetic pulses, you think if it was nuclear emps or it is a Starfish Prime Nuke, they would actually mention it no? Especially in Metal Gear where nuclear talks are prominent.

NEMP's fall under the category of EMP's so it is not contradicted and if you actually read what I said I specifically state that they are not only caused by nukes.

 

[Chariot190]

I literally stated that they don't necessarily need to be nuclear to create those types of effects.

And yet, you have to actually prove that's what it is. They don't state it's that type of pulse anywhere, at any point.
It being visible btw isn't proof either, it's fiction, in the same way laser beams or sunlight isn't actually visible but can be because fiction that same applies here.
You'd think the game that prides itself at being hyper specific with all technology and even having military weapon advisers to help out, especially of that of nuclear technology, explaining what does what and how it does, would specify it's a nuclear pulse specifically (Especially as they specified that in other games, like with the 2 megaton hydrogen bomb).

But regardless that isn't what the game says, it says it's a EA device that emits electromagnetic pulses.

Also how does that not look similar to the effects of the Starfish Prime nuke? That's literally the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the video of the EMP.

Because it doesn't? Like if you squint your eyes maybe it does, but looking very vaguely similar doesn't mean much at all.

However you do have a point that Raiden might be able to see electromagnetic pulses, that's valid. Though we still have the problem of lightning being visibly faster than the pulse itself.

Tbh the actual issue there is how they making it look slow mo, what they're doing is taking out of slow mo effect, and then playing each individual effect of it super slow while having the pulse spread actually play out to where t's visible and not a nigh instant burst in 1-2 frames. Basically they just cheat to make it look super slow while reusing assets by reusing the instant lightning effects as seen in normal gameplay, but then to make it seem slow they have them spawn in and then linger for a long while.
They do that with every particle effect in the game btw

But in it being NEMP's, I'd like to point out electromagnetic attacks and fields and what not exist elsewhere in game, non-NEMP in nature too, for example this instance, in which while not the same, is also visible to Raiden (Meaning EM shit is just visible in general to Raiden, as we have two different instances, among others, of visible EMs).

"Raiden: All right, Dok. What are we dealing with here?

Doktor: A new type of barricade. Developed as a countermeasure against UGs and cyborgs. A more conventional, physical barricade, after all, would need to be quite elaborate to keep them out.

Raiden: (Ha)...You don't have to tell me that. Course, I try to limit myself to breaking stuff that's actually in my way.

Doktor: Indeed. Now as you know, cyborgs are quite vulnerable to electromagnetic waves. UGs, too. Most employ anti-EMP technology to deal with strong magnetic fields. This typically entails shutting down circuitry completely for a period of time -- less than ideal, yes? This barricade is capable of triggering that same response in your body. I should also add that such barricades can reduce a regular man to a pile of ashes in the blink of an eye.

Raiden: What'll they come up with next?

Doktor: Well, it's called an "arms race" for a reason.

Raiden: Okay, so how do I deal with it?

Doktor: You could destroy its power supply, assuming its both external and accessible. If it's on the other side of the barricade, though, that obviously won't work. It may be best to simply work your way through the building and avoid it entirely. Judging by its placement, I would imagine this is more of an anti-UG measure than anything else. Their cyborgs probably pass through the building in order to attend to their regular duties."

And I do want to point out, EMP's are the least of the problems, there's other wacky shit like (possibly) relativistic plasma being viewed in slow motion, other magnetic shit, lasers, and more. Honestly, I'd argue once all is said and done, SOL to FTL RM shouldn't even be that that controversial.
But that ain't my issue, I'll get there when I get there shrug

NEMP's fall under the category of EMP's so it is not contradicted and if you actually read what I said I specifically state that they are not only caused by nukes.

You're gonna have to prove the tiny little grenade has any nuclear semblance, and instead just not basic electromagnetic pulses like it says it is?
Ngl but it seems like a reach based on "it's visible", and when I can prove multiple types of EA and EM devices and attacks appear visible to Raiden, that stops being an argument. Meaning all we have is "it emits EMP's lmao", and when the last time a NEMP happened, it was caused by an ACTUAL nuke, idk saying they randomly made tiny tech off that is a little sus. And going "well it's advanced so they could've", yeah they could've, but did they?
You'd think something as specific as a NNEMP would actually explain that and how it does it if it's going that deep into sci-fi.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

And yet, you have to actually prove that's what it is. They don't state it's that type of pulse anywhere, at any point.
It being visible btw isn't proof either, it's fiction, in the same way laser beams or sunlight isn't actually visible but can be because fiction that same applies here.
You'd think the game that prides itself at being hyper specific with all technology and even having military weapon advisers to help out, especially of that of nuclear technology, explaining what does what and how it does, would specify it's a nuclear pulse specifically (Especially as they specified that in other games, like with the 2 megaton hydrogen bomb).

But regardless that isn't what the game says, it says it's a EA device that emits electromagnetic pulses.

Because it doesn't? Like if you squint your eyes maybe it does, but looking very vaguely similar doesn't mean much at all.

Tbh the actual issue there is how they making it look slow mo, what they're doing is taking out of slow mo effect, and then playing each individual effect of it super slow while having the pulse spread actually play out to where t's visible and not a nigh instant burst in 1-2 frames. Basically they just cheat to make it look super slow while reusing assets by reusing the instant lightning effects as seen in normal gameplay, but then to make it seem slow they have them spawn in and then linger for a long while.
They do that with every particle effect in the game btw

But in it being NEMP's, I'd like to point out electromagnetic attacks and fields and what not exist elsewhere in game, non-NEMP in nature too, for example this instance, in which while not the same, is also visible to Raiden (Meaning EM shit is just visible in general to Raiden, as we have two different instances, among others, of visible EMs).

"Raiden: All right, Dok. What are we dealing with here?

Doktor: A new type of barricade. Developed as a countermeasure against UGs and cyborgs. A more conventional, physical barricade, after all, would need to be quite elaborate to keep them out.

Raiden: (Ha)...You don't have to tell me that. Course, I try to limit myself to breaking stuff that's actually in my way.

Doktor: Indeed. Now as you know, cyborgs are quite vulnerable to electromagnetic waves. UGs, too. Most employ anti-EMP technology to deal with strong magnetic fields. This typically entails shutting down circuitry completely for a period of time -- less than ideal, yes? This barricade is capable of triggering that same response in your body. I should also add that such barricades can reduce a regular man to a pile of ashes in the blink of an eye.

Raiden: What'll they come up with next?

Doktor: Well, it's called an "arms race" for a reason.

Raiden: Okay, so how do I deal with it?

Doktor: You could destroy its power supply, assuming its both external and accessible. If it's on the other side of the barricade, though, that obviously won't work. It may be best to simply work your way through the building and avoid it entirely. Judging by its placement, I would imagine this is more of an anti-UG measure than anything else. Their cyborgs probably pass through the building in order to attend to their regular duties."

And I do want to point out, EMP's are the least of the problems, there's other wacky shit like (possibly) relativistic plasma being viewed in slow motion, other magnetic shit, lasers, and more. Honestly, I'd argue once all is said and done, SOL to FTL RM shouldn't even be that that controversial.
But that ain't my issue, I'll get there when I get there shrug

You're gonna have to prove the tiny little grenade has any nuclear semblance, and instead just not basic electromagnetic pulses like it says it is?
Ngl but it seems like a reach based on "it's visible", and when I can prove multiple types of EA and EM devices and attacks appear visible to Raiden, that stops being an argument. Meaning all we have is "it emits EMP's lmao", and when the last time a NEMP happened, it was caused by an ACTUAL nuke, idk saying they randomly made tiny tech off that is a little sus. And going "well it's advanced so they could've", yeah they could've, but did they?
You'd think something as specific as a NNEMP would actually explain that and how it does it if it's going that deep into sci-fi.

A regular EMP can do this if the pulse is strong enough. Once again you just see the word "Nuclear" and say "Well it doesn't say nuclear" when your completely ignoring the point I'm making. All we need is a sufficiently strong EMP to cause the effects made by a NEMP. Considering the futuristic status of this verse I don't think that's to hard to believe.
Though, I once again concede to your point of Raiden being able to see usually invisible things. You don't need to reinforce what I've already agreed with.

 

[Eseseso]

RIP 7-B and above MGR.

 

[Unknownnah]

RIP 7-B and above MGR.

It's killing 7-B for ftl

sounds like a good deal to me

 

[Eseseso]

It's killing 7-B for ftl

sounds like a good deal to me

Not for me.

AP buffs >> Speed buffs since speed can always be equalized.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not for me.

AP buffs >> Speed buffs since speed can always be equalized.

Eh, MG has dura neg weapons + speed buffs to make up for it

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

TBH AP most of the time doesn't matter to Raiden or MGRR characters because of durability negating ooh aahh sword