Metroid V: To Infinity and Beyond

[Mr.Cinos15]

Are you playing Prime 1 remastered, or the og?

Remastered. I'm playing all the Metroid games available on switch.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

In Fusion, Adam says that Samus' fire power would triple when she obtained the super missile. Would that be valid in making super missiles 3x more potent than normal missiles or nah?

 

[thetechmaster36]

In Fusion, Adam says that Samus' fire power would triple when she obtained the super missile. Would that be valid in making super missiles 3x more potent than normal missiles or nah?

Unironically, it probably could. I know in-game stats aren't exactly the best way to scale things, but the normal Missile does 10 damage, whilst a Super Missile does 30. Literally a 3x damage increase, just as Adam says.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Unironically, it probably could. I know in-game stats aren't exactly the best way to scale things, but the normal Missile does 10 damage, whilst a Super Missile does 30. Literally a 3x damage increase, just as Adam says.

Eyy, as long as the statement is there, it should be valid. The gameplay backing it up is even better proof.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah the way we were planning to treat that when we revise Samus' profile proper is that her late game weapons (Plasma Beam, Screw Attack, Power Bombs, etc) are all stated to be comparable or superior to Super Missiles at some point or another (mostly by way of "this is [one of] her strongest weapon", so the multiplier would end up scaling back to her fully by the time of the endgame (Any endgame, really), though the flip side of that is it only applies to feats done with weaker beams/missiles.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Actually speaking of that, is there any progress being done on the new calcs? Cause at this point the current 5-B ratings rely on a single feat that would probably be an outlier even if Armorchompy doesn't plan on debunking it (which he probably does). Samus and Joey still has some really good stuff even without the Super Power Bomb shenanigans.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well I imagine downscaling Gorea could still end up resulting in planet level (or even star level), given its lore.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually speaking of that, is there any progress being done on the new calcs? Cause at this point the current 5-B ratings rely on a single feat that would probably be an outlier even if Armorchompy doesn't plan on debunking it (which he probably does). Samus and Joey still has some really good stuff even without the Super Power Bomb shenanigans.

Ive already calced a few, just not published yet. So yes, stuff being calced.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I heard something about Dark Burst calculation.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah the way we were planning to treat that when we revise Samus' profile proper is that her late game weapons (Plasma Beam, Screw Attack, Power Bombs, etc) are all stated to be comparable or superior to Super Missiles at some point or another (mostly by way of "this is [one of] her strongest weapon", so the multiplier would end up scaling back to her fully by the time of the endgame (Any endgame, really), though the flip side of that is it only applies to feats done with weaker beams/missiles.

I know her general stats change between her Power Suit era, Legendary Suit era, and Fusion Suit era selves, but does she get any stronger in between the games in the eras? Like is she overall the same between Prime 1 and Metroid 2, or does she get stronger in Metroid 2 compared to Prime 1 for example?

 

[Armorchompy]

I know her general stats change between her Power Suit era, Legendary Suit era, and Fusion Suit era selves, but does she get any stronger in between the games in the eras? Like is she overall the same between Prime 1 and Metroid 2, or does she get stronger in Metroid 2 compared to Prime 1 for example?

As far as we know, not really, the one exception is that we know in Other M the baby's death granted her some kind of permanent upgrade but it's really vague what that actually is (Personal theory is that Concentration/SenseMove come from that but we don't really know so that's not going on the profiles). Also obviously she gets stronger with various suits but I don't think that's what you meant.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

As far as we know, not really, the one exception is that we know in Other M the baby's death granted her some kind of permanent upgrade but it's really vague what that actually is. Also obviously she gets stronger with various suits but I don't think that's what you meant.

You can argue that she gets stronger in Fusion and Dread due to her evolving but not much else.

 

[Armorchompy]

You can argue that she gets stronger in Fusion and Dread due to her evolving but not much else.

Yeah, I forgot, she's stronger in Dread compared to Fusion if you compare suit to suit, reason for that is her suit repaired most of the damage (which is why it looks mechanical again) it underwent in Fusion's intro.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I forgot, she's stronger in Dread compared to Fusion if you compare suit to suit, reason for that is her suit repaired most of the damage (which is why it looks mechanical again) it underwent in Fusion's intro.

How much stronger is Unknown but you can say she's stronger than any version of herself prior to Fusion given that SA-X is essentially Peak Samus+ since she's stronger than Gravity Suit Fusion Samus then gets one-shot by the Mutated Omega Metroid who gets beaten by EoG Fusion Samus who then evolves even further by the end of Dread before then getting an entirely new suit on top of that.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

As far as we know, not really, the one exception is that we know in Other M the baby's death granted her some kind of permanent upgrade but it's really vague what that actually is (Personal theory is that Concentration/SenseMove come from that but we don't really know so that's not going on the profiles). Also obviously she gets stronger with various suits but I don't think that's what you meant.

Yeah I meant more so Samus herself, of course her different suits boost her to different levels (Like the Gravity Suit being a higher level than Varia Suit). Well, if she doesn't normally get stronger between games (outside of certain exceptions), then that does make scaling easier.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I find it weird that all the armors are just called suits but there are three main suits (Her Original Suit, her Legendary Suit, and her Fusion Suit, the dread suit is basically the fusion suit finally healing) and multiple sub suits (Power, Varia, Gravity, Phazon and so on) with said sub suits honestly being upgrades and modifications upon the base suit.

Makes me confused on how Samus' page should be indexed...like should the different sub suits be in different keys, or should they be treated more like the super Saiyan form and be put in one key, but then how would one divide the keys if not by sub suits...

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I find it weird that all the armors are just called suits but there are three main suits (Her Original Suit, her Legendary Suit, and her Fusion Suit, the dread suit is basically the fusion suit finally healing) and multiple sub suits (Power, Varia, Gravity, Phazon and so on) with said sub suits honestly being upgrades and modifications upon the base suit.

Makes me confused on how Samus' page should be indexed...like should the different sub suits be in different keys, or should they be treated more like the super Saiyan form and be put in one key, but then how would one divide the keys if not by sub suits...

We kind of already do this in the fact that Samus has three separate profiles for her different eras.

 

[Armorchompy]

How much stronger is Unknown but you can say she's stronger than any version of herself prior to Fusion given that SA-X is essentially Peak Samus+ since she's stronger than Gravity Suit Fusion Samus then gets one-shot by the Mutated Omega Metroid who gets beaten by EoG Fusion Samus who then evolves even further by the end of Dread before then getting an entirely new suit on top of that.

I dunno if that's true, SA-X only had Varia, plus it's sort of implied it didn't inherit Samus' skill (She says it can't be allowed to discover its full potential + iirc something else in the JP script). It'd definitely not be on the level of the Prime games since those have their own unique suits that exist in their own scaling bubbles (which go pretty high above Varia).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I dunno if that's true, SA-X only had Varia, plus it's sort of implied it didn't inherit Samus' skill (She says it can't be allowed to discover its full potential + iirc something else in the JP script). It'd definitely not be on the level of the Prime games since those have their own unique suits that exist in their own scaling bubbles (which go pretty high above Varia).

I say she's stronger than Fusion Samus mostly due to the fact she has a transformation on top of her Varia Suit form.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

How much stronger is Unknown but you can say she's stronger than any version of herself prior to Fusion given that SA-X is essentially Peak Samus+ since she's stronger than Gravity Suit Fusion Samus then gets one-shot by the Mutated Omega Metroid who gets beaten by EoG Fusion Samus who then evolves even further by the end of Dread before then getting an entirely new suit on top of that.

Not sure if the suits higher than Gravity (aka the one off suits like Phazon and the Prime 2 suits) should be accounted for in this scaling.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

We kind of already do this in the fact that Samus has three separate profiles for her different eras.

Yeah but my eyes hurt a little when I see the sub suits having their different keys...

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah but my eyes hurt a little when I see the sub suits having their different keys...

Probably just cause they all have the same tiers (outside of Power), so it gets hard to tell.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Yeah the way we were planning to treat that when we revise Samus' profile proper is that her late game weapons (Plasma Beam, Screw Attack, Power Bombs, etc) are all stated to be comparable or superior to Super Missiles at some point or another

Random question, but would this account for stuff like the Speed Booster and Shinespark as well? Because in the games, the Speed Booster and Shinespark are capable of instantly killing enemies that take even a few Super Missiles to destroy, though I'm not sure if we'd chalk that up to game mechanics or it being actually superior to the Super Missile.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Random question, but would this account for stuff like the Speed Booster and Shinespark as well? Because in the games, the Speed Booster and Shinespark are capable of instantly killing enemies that take even a few Super Missiles to destroy, though I'm not sure if we'd chalk that up to game mechanics or it being actually superior to the Super Missile.

I'd say that the speedbooster is generally stronger than super missiles, yeah. In Metroid Fusion for example, some organic barriers that block your path can be destroyed with the shinespark or screw attack, but not with super missiles. Not to mention bosses in Dread take more damage from the shinespark than they do super missiles, and get outright one-hit killed in experiment z-57's case.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah the way we were planning to treat that when we revise Samus' profile proper is that her late game weapons (Plasma Beam, Screw Attack, Power Bombs, etc) are all stated to be comparable or superior to Super Missiles at some point or another (mostly by way of "this is [one of] her strongest weapon", so the multiplier would end up scaling back to her fully by the time of the endgame (Any endgame, really), though the flip side of that is it only applies to feats done with weaker beams/missiles.

Question, since the different beams usually combine as you collect them, how would we take that into account? For example, when Samus obtains and uses the Plasma Beam in a game, it's usually not just the plasma beam being used and more so a combination of the charge beam, ice beam, wave beam, and maybe some other beam, and at least going off of gameplay, each beam stack amplifies the overall power of Samus' cannon, so I'm wondering how we would take that into account.

 

[thetechmaster36]

It's weird though, because (generally speaking), you get the Speed Booster before Super Missiles. In Fusion, you get Speed Booster by defeating Serris-X, and then the next upgrade after that is Super Missiles. In Dread, you get the Speed Booster from the SB EMMI, followed by the Grapple Beam, and then after that is Super Missiles.

So simply by virtue of collecting progessively more powerful upgrades, the Super Missile should be stronger, right? But at the same time, Speed Booster and Shinespark easily takes care of enemies that the Super Missile(s) can't. Think, for example, that giant floating whale. . .thing (EDIT: It's called a Hecathon) in Ghavoran in Dread. That thing takes a beating and requires several Super Missiles to defeat, yet the touch of the Speed Booster and Shinespark takes care of it no problem.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I wouldn't put too much thought on the acquisition order in the games. Some Metroid games treat the plasma beam as the ultimate murder beam in Samus' arsenal for example, yet in others you acquire the wave beam after plasma.

 

[Chariot190]

Question, since the different beams usually combined as you collect them, how would we take that into account? Cause usually when Samus uses the Plasma Beam, it's usually not just the plasma beam and more so a combination of the charge beam, ice beam, wave beam, and maybe some other beam, and at least going off gameplay, each beam stack amplifies the overall power of Samus' cannon, so I'm wondering how we would take that into account.

Literally just all of them at once. Like in Dread the beam has the hax of all the beams at once, heat, phasing, electricity, piercing, etc.
Obviously in Super and Prime they dont get treated like that, so like, in those keys they dont stack.

It's weird though, because (generally speaking), you get the Speed Booster before Super Missiles. In Fusion, you get Speed Booster by defeating Serris-X, and then the next upgrade after that is Super Missiles. In Dread, you get the Speed Booster from the SB EMMI, followed by the Grapple Beam, and then after that is Super Missiles.

So simply by virtue of collecting progessively more powerful upgrades, the Super Missile should be stronger, right? But at the same time, Speed Booster and Shinespark easily takes care of enemies that the Super Missile(s) can't. Think, for example, that giant floating whale. . .thing in Ghavoran in Dread. That thing takes a beating and requires several Super Missiles to defeat, yet the touch of the Speed Booster and Shinespark takes care of it no problem.

You also get SupM in Super long before that.
It really doesnt matter what item comes before or after, what matters, is what suit she has when she gets them, as that's what ends up looping them back around to scaling to her.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Literally just all of them at once. Like in Dread the beam has the hax of all the beams at once, heat, phasing, electricity, piercing, etc.
Obviously in Super and Prime they dont get treated like that, so like, in those keys they dont stack.

That's actually another good example of her blatantly evolving in Dread compared to her previous selves like we were talking about earlier.

 

[Yasuda_144]

The Speed Booster isn't even a weapon in the first place either. It just does what it says on the tin, and it happens that hitting things faster means hitting them harder. Only in Dread is it even usable in combat against bosses.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Some Metroid games treat the plasma beam as the ultimate murder beam in Samus' arsenal for example, yet in others you acquire the wave beam after plasma.

Fair enough I suppose, though I feel like the Plasma Beam having that "honor" is attributed to it simply being powerful as fuсk. Like in Super, the combination of Ice + Spazer + Wave does 100 damage, whilst Plasma on its own does 150.

That said, Chariot does make a good point that it's more about the suit rather than the item, so fair

 

[Chariot190]

That's actually another good example of her blatantly evolving in Dread compared to her previous selves like we were talking about earlier.

That's in Fusion too, and think Returns? They just kinda dropped the selectable beams like in Super.

 

[Chariot190]

Fair enough I suppose, though I feel like the Plasma Beam having that "honor" is attributed to it simply being powerful as fuсk. Like in Super, the combination of Ice + Spazer + Wave does 100 damage, whilst Plasma on its own does 150.

That said, Chariot does make a good point that it's more about the suit rather than the item, so fair

S&J flatout states that it's her strongest "weapon", among other things, it's canonically her best beam by far, PB is stated most destructive tho a few times.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Obviously in Super and Prime they dont get treated like that

Wym, they absolutely did stack in Super, they stacked way back in Zero Mission too, back when she had the dinky pre-Legendary suit.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Wym, they absolutely did stack in Super, they stacked way back in Zero Mission too, back when she had the dinky pre-Legendary suit.

I think they're talking about how you can't stack Spazer with Plasma in Super Metroid, so technically not all beams can be stacked together (at least in Super Metroid, don't know if that's the case in any other Metroid).

 

[thetechmaster36]

The Speed Booster isn't even a weapon in the first place either.

I mean, it doesn't really need to be a weapon in the first place? The fact that it's mainly used for traversal - and thus its side-effect of BTFOing enemies that come into contact with it or the Shinespark - just means that it has unconventional use as a damage dealer. Hell, the Grapple Beam (whose primary use is just to grab onto specific surfaces and objects) is pretty much in the same category, and yet it can still be used as a weapon. Albeit, a very ineffective weapon in the case of Dread, but a weapon nonetheless.

The worst I could probably see that sort of use be relegated to is some kind of very weird Stat Amp that occurs when the Speed Booster and Shinespark are used.

Only in Dread is it even usable in combat against bosses.

That is true yes, though that wouldn't necessarily change my point above that its use outside of bosses to BTFO regular enemies on contact is just it being an unconventional damage dealer.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I mean, it doesn't really need to be a weapon in the first place? The fact that it's mainly used for traversal - and thus its side-effect of BTFOing enemies that come into contact with it or the Shinespark - just means that it has unconventional use as a damage dealer. Hell, the Grapple Beam (whose primary use is just to grab onto specific surfaces and objects) is pretty much in the same category, and yet it can still be used as a weapon. Albeit, a very ineffective weapon in the case of Dread, but a weapon nonetheless.

The worst I could probably see that sort of use be relegated to is some kind of very weird Stat Amp that occurs when the Speed Booster and Shinespark are used.

That is true yes, though that wouldn't necessarily change my point above that its use outside of bosses to BTFO regular enemies on contact is just it being an unconventional damage dealer.

Honestly, maybe you can classify the speed booster and spark damage under striking strength? Since unlike almost every other item in her arsenal, it's one of them few that involves her physically striking an enemy (even if it's with her body lol).

So instead of noting it down in the AP section, it could instead be put under striking strength and we scale it higher than the super missile.

 

[Yasuda_144]

I mean, it doesn't really need to be a weapon in the first place? The fact that it's mainly used for traversal - and thus its side-effect of BTFOing enemies that come into contact with it or the Shinespark - just means that it has unconventional use as a damage dealer.

Yeah, but its offensive uses are extremely situational most of the time, so because of that it might not be restricted to being weaker than something like Plasma, which is Samus' "strongest weapon" as shown or stated multiple times.

The fact that it can just oneshot bosses in Dread seems to indicate that as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Wym, they absolutely did stack in Super, they stacked way back in Zero Mission too, back when she had the dinky pre-Legendary suit.

Meant moreso the fact theyre selectable, newer games dont have that option.
Tho some beams cant stack anyway like Plasma with some stuff.

Also, I was talking irl, not lore, they just kinda dropped selectable beams post super excluding Prime.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Yeah, but its offensive uses are extremely situational most of the time, so because of that it might not be restricted to being weaker than something like Plasma, which is Samus' "strongest weapon" as shown or stated multiple times.

The fact that it can just oneshot bosses in Dread seems to indicate that as well.

Yeah since it's not a weapon, it technically exists outside of weapon statements and scaling, so it can kinda scale wherever. Speed booster and boostspark can unironically be stronger than most of her arsenal and it wouldn't even contradict the lore (as far as I know).