Metroid: 2 Downgrades

[Chariot190]

A plasma beam would be a heat feat, which also shouldn’t scale physically.

What? Plasma Beam actually has output lad, it most certainly would, it having heat based properties doesn't change that, otherwise every explosion ever would be nuked because they have and emit heat. Something having heat doesn't mean it doesn't have pure power behind it as well. Maybe for something like the Nova Beam which is entirely heat dura neg I could get your point but Plasma is aight.

 

[Keeweed]

Looking into it: majority of the energy from explosions comes from physical force. The fire is an added benefit in a way.

Meanwhile Plasma is majority heat (though from what I see the energy seems to be entirely from heat, I can’t find anything saying a physical force hits you when your blasted by plasma: like you don’t physically cut things with plasma the hot ionized gas burns it).

 

[Chariot190]

Looking into it: majority of the energy from explosions comes from physical force. The fire is an added benefit in a way.

Doesn't matter, you're arguing the Plasma Beam has heat behind it so it doesn't count basically right? Same with explosions, hell, same with some punches, meteors, etc. They all have heat, does that invalidate the rest of them? No it doesn't. Not even ******* close.

Meanwhile Plasma is majority heat (though from what I see the energy seems to be entirely from heat, I can’t find anything saying a physical force hits you when your blasted by plasma).

And? We're talking about metroid's version of a beam that can blast through walls, inflict physical damage and more. Not whatever wikipedia article you found detailing the subject of plasma. Plasma beam in Metroid has heat properties, it also has normal properties that'd allow actual scaling with it lad.

And yes, read the thread. If you're gonna actually partake, go through the effort of reading so we don't have to retread the same stuff.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly the sheer amount of text makes it pretty difficult to read so maybe giving a summary would help

 

[Keeweed]

If the plasma beam in Metroid doesn’t act like real plasma at all and just physical hits stuff (I’ve played a few Metroid games and I don’t remember it acting like that but relooking at some of the older games it does physically break a wall a few times) then it should be fine.

Edit 2: Most of the comment is in Chariot response and this is to save space.

 

[Chariot190]

I read 90% of it, sorry my curiosity got ahead of myself, but you make it sound like I read one post then gave up.

I mean, that's kinda what you implied no offense. But maybe that's my bad.

If the plasma beam in Metroid doesn’t act like real plasma at all and just physical hits stuff (I’ve played a few Metroid games and I don’t remember it acting like that but relooking at some of the older games it does physically break a wall a few times) then it should be fine.

It's a bit of both? It's definitely super hot and has heat behind it, but it's not just plasma, it's also a beam and has physical properties and can inflict physical damage.
(Which oddly enough, the ice beam doesnt really do that but i could be wrong, I'll need to check ).

Sorry for interrupting the thread, I just wanted to be absolutely sure there was a reason it should scale physically. I just want to say I feel really out of it right now (just got my vaccine shot and think I’m a bit sick due to it), so that’s probably why I was a bit rash in asking my question.

Tbh I'm not sure I disagree with you, I agree with them scaling to it via Plasma Beam or other such weapons with a higher stated attack and energy output, but direct scaling via the Ice beam itself I'm actually a bit iffy on, Data and DD arguing that though, so take that up with them, I'm a bit neutral leading towards disagreeing personally.
Also dude don't be sorry, it's a vs debate site, hell we should be a bit more scrutinizing as is.

Once again sorry for any inconvenience.

It's completely fine, only real issue was the "didnt read it all" but if you actually did read it and the arguments presented and were just double confirming then there's nothing wrong. That's fine and standard procedure.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Freezing a star with the ice beam

Also something that was brought up before in the same thread but was glossed over.

"We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (******* absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it."

But I do argue that it shouldn't even scale to her AP.

Here is the manga chapter for full context, short summary of it:

The feat is done by a electrical being named Chrysta fused to a large power plant inside the sun, maintaining both the surface and part of the inner core frozen to protect the entrance and facility from the rest of the hellish heat still active.

Once Samus destroys Chrysta and regains her Ice Beam ability, the entire facility starts melting down, to avoid complete incineration while trying to escape Joey scatters the ice beam around the ship to fight back against the fire, which still leaves parts of the ship burned.

Not only this is hard evidence against Samus's durability scaling to this feat, it also proves it can't to her AP aswell.

While is stated that Chrysta managed to freeze parts of the sun thanks to the Ice Beam, is likely this was also done because of massive power supply he got from the facility (The aforemented powerplants and the harvested core parts, which were used by his Greed Corps like him).

You can also notice the massive gap between Chrysta and Samus using the Ice Beam:

• While Chrysta froze the star's surface immediatly (Is what the calc assumes) with part of the inner core, and passively maintained both like this, preventing it from melting at any point while working on there...

• Samus could only fight back against fractions of the sun's fire while escaping, instead of outright overpowering it like how Chrysta did, and even then Joey and her ship still got burns after leaving.

TL;DR: Samus's ice beam shouldn't scale to Chrysta's feat because the latter had more power and you can directly see how she largely underperforms compared to him.

My proposal is to recalculate the first feat and knock off Power Suit to whatever is the result (According to Armor, there are better feats in the manga to use aswell).

As for the second feat, either downgrade her Legendary Power Suit to 6-B, or at least her durability section if my arguments aren't accepted.

Can I say that I think the star feat is legit but misinterpreted? I don't personally think Samus could freeze an actual, normal-sized star. That doesn't make much sense. But what does make sense is that the ice beam can freeze stars or things with the properties of stars. In a verse where black hole guns and supernova missile-beam combinations exist, this demonstrates that Samus would be able to freeze weapons like this with her ice beam. If her gun were big enough, she could freeze an entire star but at normal size, she's only going to be freezing weaponized star-like objects. Still super powerful, given that said micro-stars appear to generate heat and energy comparable to real stars, just smaller in scale and not much in the way of gravity. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Samus's Ice Beam is ridiculously OP. If this interpretation isn't valid, lmk.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about anymore Chariot.

So I'm making summaries based on my previous points and hope it's understandable:

• We previously scaled Power Suit Samus to Ridley because she survived her initial encounter with Ridley. That does not mean they're on equal ground, just enough that she can survive his hits.
• We didn't scale Ridley to 6-B because he was defeated by Varia Suit Samus who is baseline 6-B. Even if it wasn't a curb stomp, he'd still be a tier lower.
• We scaled Mother Brain's shields to the 6-B missiles from S&J as these were black-market weapons that Joey's flashback showed were at the very least used by opposing nations. Both the Federation and Space Pirates are leagues ahead of any individual nation and therefore would have at least access to these weapons, yet Ridley & his mothership were forced to use a literal miniature black hole just to get through to Zebes.

I'm not even sure where tier 4 antimatter bombs came from, unless you're going off a really foggy memory of MP2.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about anymore Chariot.

If you don't want to continue just say it, don't make up excuses like that. It's pretty evident you know what I'm talking about otherwise you wouldn't have debated me this much on it in the first place, the argument hasn't changed all that much.

We previously scaled Power Suit Samus to Ridley because she survived her initial encounter with Ridley. That does not mean they're on equal ground, just enough that she can survive his hits.

Data, cut it out, it should be obvious I don't care what we did. I'm contesting it, in fact, I'm contesting like 50% of the stuff on the profiles sooner or later, you're appealing to tradition here, maybe not this exact post, but you've done so multiple times now in general, etc. I don't care Data, just because we used to do something or the profiles say something doesn't mean it's right, it's a literal non-argument.
The initial encounter, fyi, was Ridley actively ******* around and humiliating her, he wasn't trying, if memory serves he was even warned not to kill her. You can't really scale someone not trying to kill and saying this other person survived hits so they scale, let alone when him not trying to kill or going all out is still enough to beat her into the ground (Especially when you're doing the opposite for Ridley who actually did survive hits from a bloodlusted killing intent Samus).

We didn't scale Ridley to 6-B because he was defeated by Varia Suit Samus who is baseline 6-B. Even if it wasn't a curb stomp, he'd still be a tier lower.

That isn't even how it works, at worst it'd be a downscale and I'm not even so sure at that given the exact mechanics of his defeat and how he fared against the attacks he was hit with, not the 500x lower you have him at, which isn't hyperbole, it's actually a few hundred times less, because that's the difference between baseline 6-B and 6-C, and not even baseline 6-C, just where you had him it prior.

We scaled Mother Brain's shields to the 6-B missiles from S&J as these were black-market weapons that Joey's flashback showed were at the very least used by opposing nations. Both the Federation and Space Pirates are leagues ahead of any individual nation and therefore would have at least access to these weapons, yet Ridley & his mothership were forced to use a literal miniature black hole just to get through to Zebes.

So there is no evidence? Just extrapolation based on two different manga's set probably a solid decade apart in universe?
You're scaling shields from ZM to missiles some unknown timeframe later made by some surprisingly competent black group? Them being black-market missiles doesn't really matter, they're made by an organization that could make actual threatening state of the art technology that puts a chunk of what the Federation has to shame, they even managed to make decent replicas of Samus' suit. Not perfect and weaker, but a damn good job considering how long it took the Feds and Pirates to get close to even half that. And that'd only really apply to the planetary shields mind you even if you go with this huge extrapolation, not the literal billions to trillions smaller shields MB uses. You'd need to divide the area of the whole of Zebes with the shields MB uses to get an actual rating for them. The Pirates needing a black hole to get past a literal planet sized shield isn't the same as a wall sized shield. It's like saying a continent sized piece of steel could survive a nuke so a steel wall a few feet across could too.

I'm not even sure where tier 4 antimatter bombs came from, unless you're going off a really foggy memory of MP2.

I straight up said what I was referring to.

Regardless, Ridley's calc ain't 6-C, find new scaling.
The MB shields scaling to those missiles is a huge no-go, even if you do, you'd have to divide it by like a trillion times.
If you no shit wanna argue that weapons vary depending on the wielder, we're gonna need to re-eval a handful of calcs and feats. And so on and so forth, no matter how you slice it, something is getting a hard look over.

 

[SomebodyData]

If you don't want to continue just say it, don't make up excuses like that. It's pretty evident you know what I'm talking about otherwise you wouldn't have debated me this much on it in the first place, the argument hasn't changed all that much.

Sorry, let me just say it then. I lost track of the convo from the sheer size of your responses. You're making paragraphs out of single sentences. Condense your points goddamn. I want to continue, you just make it unbearable.

For example, your next response can literally be summarized as: "I disagree with what we did. Ridley was just trying to humiliate her, not kill her, hence we shouldn't scale."

Also, you misinterpret every single response. I'm just explaining why the reasoning behind the scaling. This isn't an appeal to tradition, that's literally just trying to make sure we're arguing about the same things.

Data, cut it out, it should be obvious I don't care what we did. I'm contesting it, in fact, I'm contesting like 50% of the stuff on the profiles sooner or later, you're appealing to tradition here, maybe not this exact post, but you've done so multiple times now in general, etc. I don't care Data, just because we used to do something or the profiles say something doesn't mean it's right, it's a literal non-argument.
The initial encounter, fyi, was Ridley actively ******* around and humiliating her, he wasn't trying, if memory serves he was even warned not to kill her. You can't really scale someone not trying to kill and saying this other person survived hits so they scale, let alone when him not trying to kill or going all out is still enough to beat her into the ground (Especially when you're doing the opposite for Ridley who actually did survive hits from a bloodlusted killing intent Samus).

He started humiliating her after she transformed back to Zero Suit and he found out she was K2-L's survivor.

That isn't even how it works, at worst it'd be a downscale and I'm not even so sure at that given the exact mechanics of his defeat and how he fared against the attacks he was hit with, not the 500x lower you have him at, which isn't hyperbole, it's actually a few hundred times less, because that's the difference between baseline 6-B and 6-C, and not even baseline 6-C, just where you had him it prior.

I already agreed 6-C was inaccurate back in the end of comment #47. I was pointing out the scaling was still accurate (Power Suit < Ridley < Varia Suit in Zero Mission), which you don't even address here.

So there is no evidence? Just extrapolation based on two different manga's set probably a solid decade apart in universe?
You're scaling shields from ZM to missiles some unknown timeframe later made by some surprisingly competent black group? Them being black-market missiles doesn't really matter, they're made by an organization that could make actual threatening state of the art technology that puts a chunk of what the Federation has to shame, they even managed to make decent replicas of Samus' suit. Not perfect and weaker, but a damn good job considering how long it took the Feds and Pirates to get close to even half that. And that'd only really apply to the planetary shields mind you even if you go with this huge extrapolation, not the literal billions to trillions smaller shields MB uses. You'd need to divide the area of the whole of Zebes with the shields MB uses to get an actual rating for them. The Pirates needing a black hole to get past a literal planet sized shield isn't the same as a wall sized shield. It's like saying a continent sized piece of steel could survive a nuke so a steel wall a few feet across could too.

The missiles were in circulation far before S&J considering Joey's father already had experience with them. Also, surprisingly competent? Their entire factory full of these replicas was destroyed by a nuclear explosion that even Samus' gunship survived, and at least ten of these Samus replicas were fought by the two bounty hunters in the earlier part of the manga. Also what do you mean how long it took the Feds and Space Pirates? Both their programs had results in Prime (Space Pirates) & Fed Force (GF) but began only after seeing Samus' results in ZM. The replicas in S&J were made years after either and far inferior to both. The only thing close was their appearance.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the shield was clearly not planet-sized in thickness. The part of the shield that was actually needed to be destroyed was this large, they didn't destroy the entire thing as you seem to imply. I'm not sure what the exact thickness is, but it's clearly a lot closer than trillions.

I straight up said what I was referring to.

Which again, I said that it's probably more of a random vague memory. Tier 4 antimatter bombs don't exist in Metroid.

Regardless, Ridley's calc ain't 6-C, find new scaling.
The MB shields scaling to those missiles is a huge no-go, even if you do, you'd have to divide it by like a trillion times.
If you no shit wanna argue that weapons vary depending on the wielder, we're gonna need to re-eval a handful of calcs and feats. And so on and so forth, no matter how you slice it, something is getting a hard look over.

Already agreed in #47. Was just trying to keep the power scaling.
Exaggerated significantly. Also not how durability works?
Not even an accurate understanding of what I was saying, just that Samus' suit upgrades can also upgrade her AP. You kept trying to expand it to cover every wielder.

 

[Chariot190]

Sorry, let me just say it then. I lost track of the convo from the sheer size of your responses. You're making paragraphs out of single sentences. Condense your points goddamn. I want to continue, you just make it unbearable.

I'd prefer honesty yeah. If it's simple and warrants just a single response, I'll do so, but we're juggling several topics here, with a whole slew of different sources, events, instances, games, manga, lore and examples for every single point brought up.
It's not "I disagree" it's "i disagree, here's why [reasoning] and also here's why I disagree with your reasoning". If you just want half-assed responses, sure, i disagree with your scaling, I find it disingenuous, hypocritical, mostly made up, and lacks a huge amount of evidence or concrete proof for the majority of what's on the profiles. That good enough? And pot meet kettle, your responses ain't exactly short either, but given the forum we're on, I hold no issues if you want to make long posts to reply to a long topic. It might get tedious, but best it get the proper attention it needs instead of just glossing over things.

For example, your next response can literally be summarized as: "I disagree with what we did. Ridley was just trying to humiliate her, not kill her, hence we shouldn't scale."

Better to go all in and cover as much ground as possible instead of just a simple half-baked response. And I wasn't responding to that exclusively, earlier in the thread you said it makes sense that a weaker character tanking hits but still losing would be a tier below, in the case of Ridley, but you failed to realize that tier difference is a 500x gap, yet you're doing the same exact thing here. It was more me disagreeing and also pointing out hypocrisy in the statement.

Also, you misinterpret every single response. I'm just explaining why the reasoning behind the scaling. This isn't an appeal to tradition, that's literally just trying to make sure we're arguing about the same things.

"maybe not this exact post, but you've done so multiple times now in general" - me.
I quite literally said you might not be doing that in that exact post, but you've done so numerous times throughout the this thread. And you bringing up the profiles continuously as evidence to back your claims means nothing given I'm contesting most of it in the first place. The profiles saying something is a nonargument. That was my point. It isn't me misinterpreting, it's me telling you to cut it out, I'm aware of what you're trying to say, I just vehemently disagree with based on the arguments and evidence provided.

And yes, the reasoning behind the scaling is faulty, which is why I take issue with it.

He started humiliating her after she transformed back to Zero Suit and he found out she was K2-L's survivor.

Not really, I just checked, Samus gets pissed, starts attacking MB and Ridley just swoops down and nonchalantly puts her on her ass and is like "Really? This is the comrade? ". He even calls her pathetic. Worthless junk, and does so while laughing while he casually slaps her around. And when she goes to ZS, he gets pissed and tries some actual humiliation and tortue-esque methods upon learning who she was. And he's told to cut it out.

I already agreed 6-C was inaccurate back in the end of comment #47. I was pointing out the scaling was still accurate (Power Suit < Ridley < Varia Suit in Zero Mission), which you don't even address here.

Then find new scaling? We need actual new scaling Data, I've asked if you yourself had any ideas a few times now.
And I'm saying that scaling chain isn't accurate. I thought that was clear enough I vehemently with the Varia >>>> power Suit, at least in regards to some of its weaponry.

The missiles were in circulation far before S&J considering Joey's father already had experience with them.

And? How long before? He never specifies when, merely that he knows of them. Was it years and years prior to that scene? Or just a bit? We don't know, but we do know it wasn't before the events of ZM in that specific scene as Joey was there and wasn't a literal infant. So there's like a half decade timeframe it needs to fall into, ain't unlikely.

Also, surprisingly competent? Their entire factory full of these replicas was destroyed by a nuclear explosion that even Samus' gunship survived, and at least ten of these Samus replicas were fought by the two bounty hunters in the earlier part of the manga.

Earlier part? You linked literally the last chapter of that manga my dude, unless you mean hose hunters were fought early on, which isn't an argument really, the manga starts off with Samus being roided as **** and she had some issues with them both.
And that one dude is strong as ****, he can cut through Samus' armor quite easily, he cleanly chops off a chunk of her arm-cannon, which is how they get the tech-specs in the first place. Plus we don't know how they actually faired but given one of them has a weapon that can harm Varia Samus and slice chunks of her off cleanly, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he could take out powerful, albeit weaker, replicas of Samus' tech. (Actually those are Integra Units, wtf, they should've got their ass kicked).

And I'm aware of the nuclear explosion, I calced it even, it's like almost in the petaton range. Also, ignore that multiple weapons they made that pushed Samus to her limit and harmed her quite easily and most of the weapons based on Samus were destroyed by Samus and others on her way there, not the explosion.

Also what do you mean how long it took the Feds and Space Pirates? Both their programs had results in Prime (Space Pirates) & Fed Force (GF) but began only after seeing Samus' results in ZM. The replicas in S&J were made years after either and far inferior to both. The only thing close was their appearance.

Their results where tragic Data, the Pirates couldn't replicate the Morph Ball and had deaths while failing to do it. The Feds could barely even make a lackluster suit in the events of Federation Force. And you said yourself earlier, neither have any hope of even coming close to Samus, of course I argued that isn't inherently the case anymore, but if the two biggest factions take over a decade with much more resources and info and a black-market place could shit out competent and powerful droids that can tank hits and harm Samus in like, idk, a few weeks with the proper material, yeah, surprisingly competent. Though, I actually found a statement that would support your argument of Varia getting stronger, I'll go take a look at the raws and see if it's accurate, and if it is, hey you lucked out, but it's unfortunate that I'm having to find solid evidence for your argument instead of you yourself. Though if you did luck out it would straight up confirm my end on this argument in that the droids were bafflingly powerful and would at minimum, be within the same ballpark as Varia if not above it.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the shield was clearly not planet-sized in thickness. The part of the shield that was actually needed to be destroyed was this large, they didn't destroy the entire thing as you seem to imply. I'm not sure what the exact thickness is, but it's clearly a lot closer than trillions.

I was talking surface area Data which is usually how we calc things like this (After all, the explosion wouldn't be hyper focused, it'd spread out across it), if we go simply by thickness we're talking a few inches for MB and like 100km thick off that scan, so sure, maybe not trillions if ya wanna go that route, it'd be like, a billion or so. Would put the shields MB has at a generous 8-A+.

Which again, I said that it's probably more of a random vague memory. Tier 4 antimatter bombs don't exist in Metroid.

The BSL station's self destruct device has been jokingly (and none jokingly if the archives are to be trusted), to be alluded to as a anti-matter bomb. The explosion was tier 4, (Or maybe just really ******* high 5-A, it was above yotta tho, so it was either High 5-A or knocking on tier 4).

Already agreed in #47. Was just trying to keep the power scaling.

Disagree with most of it. Might agree with some of it depending on what the raws say, but some ain't all, we still have issues no matter what it says.

Exaggerated significantly. Also not how durability works?

Not really, trillions would actually be accurate if we did it by surface area, if we go by thickness, it's billions (about 3.9 billion). Would end up 8-A+ or around there. Maybe Low 7-C if lucky?

Not even an accurate understanding of what I was saying, just that Samus' suit upgrades can also upgrade her AP. You kept trying to expand it to cover every wielder.

Yes I'm trying to cover every wielder because we're gonna HAVE TO. It ain't like we only have Samus' profile and that's it, more characters exist Data. You're complicating the scaling, not making it simpler. We're outright gonna have to take a look over everything if we go your way.

Edit: Checked raws, similar but not quite. Worded like a temporary boost, not permanent.
Edit 2: Getting an actual translation done.

 

[SomebodyData]

Gonna have to respond Monday, sorry. Also what scan are you translating?

 

[LordNidhoggr]

I will fully admit lost in the replies and was trying to cover a point that I think actually got covered...? Frankly, it's a bit hard to tell. This thread is getting a bit too hard to follow. I'm not going to tell thread starter what to do, but maybe focusing a bit more narrowly is necessary. Maybe cover just Samus, then Ridley, then MB if you really have to, not all at once. Not when they're all so closely related.

That said...from what I do have so far, I don't necessarily agree with downgrades. MB's shield strength being comparable to the planet's shield makes sense because we see in other places that black hole weapons are not instant-win attacks against things (probably) weaker than a planet-sized shield, like Samus in her morph ball or any non-basic enemy shot with the black hole-like Darkburst. Metroid is a pretty inconsistent verse, but I think there are enough examples of ridiculous weaponry and armor to keep it more or less the same.

EDIT: Um, in the "we could calc that," were you referring to the Ridley thing I deleted? Cause I'll put it back if that's the case. Sorry, I thought I had repeated something already mentioned.

 

[Chariot190]

That's pretty notable actually, we could calc that. Though surface area might **** it, but at the same time, it might not.

Gonna have to respond Monday, sorry. Also what scan are you translating?

Everything now, noticed Dread is in a month so I decided after some irl stuff I'm just gonna play through the verse and compile everything of note including the japanese manga and guides, obviously ignoring Retro original info and games as eng would be the proper language to use for that.
In particular though the scan I was talking about was Samus' power increasing proportional to her anger/fighting spirit. Looking at the raw it's worded to be more of a "in the moment boost" rather than a permanent boost unfortunately. (Though it still confirms Integra is > Varia normally).

Though I'll make this exceptionally easy on you and we can just cut the shit here now and resolve this.

Is 6-B Ridley via scaling to Platinum aight or not, if not what are we scaling his ass to, if you have any alternatives I'm all ears, I've asked like 4 times now.
If we can resolve this now that's good enough for me.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

That's pretty notable actually, we could calc that. Though surface area might **** it, but at the same time, it might not.



Everything now, noticed Dread is in a month so I decided after some irl stuff I'm just gonna play through the verse and compile everything of note including the japanese manga and guides, obviously ignoring Retro original info and games as eng would be the proper language to use for that.
In particular though the scan I was talking about was Samus' power increasing proportional to her anger/fighting spirit. Looking at the raw it's worded to be more of a "in the moment boost" rather than a permanent boost unfortunately. (Though it still confirms Integra is > Varia normally).

Though I'll make this exceptionally easy on you and we can just cut the shit here now and resolve this.

Is 6-B Ridley via scaling to Platinum aight or not, if not what are we scaling his ass to, if you have any alternatives I'm all ears, I've asked like 4 times now.
If we can resolve this now that's good enough for me.

So, with the power up, I'm pretty sure it's function of her suit but not an "upgrade." Samus's suit doesn't seem to have many hard limits, and so its power is proportional to the pilot's will and intentions. This allows Samus to fight at a wide spectrum, always strong enough to kill most dangerous opponents she has while also not risking civilians and low-level bounties. We know for a fact that the functions of the suit have variable output thanks to the SA-X blowing up walls in the space station that none of Samus's weapons seem to damage. It also explains why sometimes her wave beam is enough to fry Ridley's internal organs yet then requires her to use every missile at her disposal in other confrontations with him.

Also, wouldn't Ridley scale to Gray Voice, not Platinum Chest? Being that Gray Voice is the one with the armor that engaged in combat against Mother Brain.

And...um, in the "we could calc that," were you referring to the Ridley thing I deleted? Cause I'll put it back if that's the case. Sorry, I thought I had repeated something already mentioned.

 

[Chariot190]

So, with the power up, I'm pretty sure it's function of her suit but not an "upgrade." Samus's suit doesn't seem to have many hard limits, and so its power is proportional to the pilot's will and intentions. This allows Samus to fight at a wide spectrum, always strong enough to kill most dangerous opponents she has while also not risking civilians and low-level bounties. We know for a fact that the functions of the suit have variable output thanks to the SA-X blowing up walls in the space station that none of Samus's weapons seem to damage. It also explains why sometimes her wave beam is enough to fry Ridley's internal organs yet then requires her to use every missile at her disposal in other confrontations with him.

Gonna be honest, that's going way to deep into speculation. Samus' suit comes packed with a "anger/will = power boost" thing, but her suit and weapons very clearly have a benchmark power, an apathetic Samus' power bombs aren't gonna be like 9-B, they'd still be at minimum a certain tier. The SA-X thing is literally just gamemechanics, it can destroy walls and stuff because it's easy, the reason you can't is because it'd be dumb as shit if you could just blow a hole through the game and go wherever the hell you want. This ain't even a SA-X thing, the BOX robot and Nightmare both completely **** up the stages while Samus can't despite being above both at the respective points in the game, it's simply a gameplay thing. The bounty thing is weird going by the bounty hunter fights in S&J.

Also idk what you mean by fry his organs, he took the wave beam quite well, didn't seem to do major damage. Unless you mean games, idk, it's probably just balancing to an extent, though it ain't like Ridley has any innate quirks that'd make him better suited to one or the other.

Also, wouldn't Ridley scale to Gray Voice, not Platinum Chest? Being that Gray Voice is the one with the armor that engaged in combat against Mother Brain.

Was it Gray Voice? I get the two confused, I wanted to say Gray Voice but figured I'd be wrong so I picked the other one. But yeah, the armored one. But yes, the armored one scales to MB's shields, and ridley kills him.

I also got thinking in regards to how durable Tourian might be, it took a continental nuke and while it was ****** up, it actually did survive quite well. Like you'd think it'd be vaporized and reduced to obsidian but nope.

 

[Chariot190]

And...um, in the "we could calc that," were you referring to the Ridley thing I deleted? Cause I'll put it back if that's the case. Sorry, I thought I had repeated something already mentioned.

Also ye, we could probably calc it, might be a pain, but depending on how large, it could be tier 6 to 5, though surface area might **** it a tad, depends how much energy we wanna go with.

 

[Newendigo]

I took too long, didn't I?

@LordNidhoggr

Maybe cover just Samus, then Ridley,

Basically what I'm trying to do already, and any character that scales to the two feats that are being contested in the OP (If I missed any, which I likely obviosly did). My say here is that, we are going to revise the two mentioned feats + the spaceship crash calc, since that looks relatively simple to give a check.

Apply the proposals that I gave and that's about it, the problems that @Chariot190 brought up probably will have to be handled on yet another thread, since these are much major problems from what I get, and I want this thread to remain simple.

@SomebodyData

Her shout of pain suggests damage was dealt. SA-X actually doesn't stack her weapons initially, weirdly enough. If you see footage of SA-X in her encounters, she only starts to add to the Ice Beam later on. Your guess on why this happens is as good as mine. My guess is that they didn't want to break immersion by implying Fusion Suit Samus could survive the Plasma Beam.

I'm going to change my argument, yeah she screamed but that damage can be related to the pain from the cold generated rather than an AP thing. Which make sense because as you said, she doesn't have any protection from the temps.

And is probably more logical than to say that she was unaffected by the ice cage with no ill effect, and only got damaged by some weird third attack that somehow scales to dura.

As for the SA-X that can also be related to the Samus not being able to 100% withstand the cold of the Ice Beam, even with the Varia Suit. Again I'm not going to buy this extra level damage from ice that somehow scales to dura.

When I said Ice Manipulation breaks physics, I meant it in general. 'Cold' is the absence of energy, and most ice manipulation is usually the exact opposite of removing energy. It's also not like we don't have examples of AP / dura scaling to ice manipulation exceptions, like Iceman. Especially when we know that the Ice Manip does damage that isn't thermal shock or temp based.

I know that, hence why I'm so pushy into removing this from the profiles as scalable to anything outside of AP. The wiki has become far more stricter when it comes to those heat/cold feats, so Iceman can't work as an example any longer (And he should honestly get the Human Torch treatment).

From this point I feel we are just going to repeat the same things over and over again, I have established my stance and I'm prolly not changing it, so calling out more people that know about the subject to decide what is best is better idea rn.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Basically what I'm trying to do already, and any character that scales to the two feats that are being contested in the OP (If I missed any, which I likely obviosly did). My say here is that, we are going to revise the two mentioned feats + the spaceship crash calc, since that looks relatively simple to give a check.

Fair enough. I don't think the Ridley feat is great, but I also think Ridley should scale pretty high. He has insane durability feats in the Prime games, and while Meta-Ridley would logically be more durable than Ridley, I think Ridley's own endurance and destruction feats compare pretty well. The star feat...well, I already gave my perspective on that. I think the feat is fine, just misinterpreted. I won't pretend to know if it would drastically change her tier, though.

Now, the ship crash, what's wrong with that? Yeah, the ship would absorb a lot of the energy of the impact, but it also adds a whole lot of mass. Even if it absorbed 90% of it Samus would still be hitting much harder than just her own body at terminal velocity, which iirc is a good chunk of light speed on Zebes due to the uber gravity. I'm sure the feat as-is is within reasonable limits, unless we're changing the gravity as accepted by the wiki. However, I am not a physicist, so if this one needs to be changed, so long as there are reasonable numbers/explanations to justify the changes, I won't argue.

Gonna be honest, that's going way to deep into speculation. Samus' suit comes packed with a "anger/will = power boost" thing, but her suit and weapons very clearly have a benchmark power, an apathetic Samus' power bombs aren't gonna be like 9-B, they'd still be at minimum a certain tier. The SA-X thing is literally just gamemechanics, it can destroy walls and stuff because it's easy, the reason you can't is because it'd be dumb as shit if you could just blow a hole through the game and go wherever the hell you want. This ain't even a SA-X thing, the BOX robot and Nightmare both completely **** up the stages while Samus can't despite being above both at the respective points in the game, it's simply a gameplay thing. The bounty thing is weird going by the bounty hunter fights in S&J.

Also idk what you mean by fry his organs, he took the wave beam quite well, didn't seem to do major damage. Unless you mean games, idk, it's probably just balancing to an extent, though it ain't like Ridley has any innate quirks that'd make him better suited to one or the other.

If you say so. I will note that I didn't argue that there weren't logical boundaries the weapons exist within; I don't think that she can turn a super missile into a marshmallow gun or universe-buster at will, just that it makes sense that she'd have a dialable yield function to limit collateral damage. And yes, of course, there's the gameplay element of not wanting the player to just be able to blow holes in everything. But remove the gameplay for a second: does it even make sense that, "realistically," Samus is using weapons clearly capable of massive collateral damage on space platforms? She'd blow holes in every space station he boarded. I guess it's speculation, but to me, it just seems logical.

As for the Ridley wave beam thing...he doesn't look like he took the wave beam all that well to me. And the fact remains he was defeated, nearly killed, in three shots by Samus: wave, ice, and finally a missile. Even if we downscale Ridley's durability significantly, that puts those weapons at an extremely high amount of damage compared to what they normally do in the games.

Also ye, we could probably calc it, might be a pain, but depending on how large, it could be tier 6 to 5, though surface area might **** it a tad, depends how much energy we wanna go with.

This I will leave to people who can actually do such things. I feel like the laser destroying the Leviathan utterly shows the huge amount of energy involved, and Ridley would have smashed into it at high speed given the ~20km fall into it. I think...heh. Still learning maths and what assumptions to make and such, so forgive me any errors; they are genuine and not me trying to wank anybody.

 

[Chariot190]

If you say so. I will note that I didn't argue that there weren't logical boundaries the weapons exist within; I don't think that she can turn a super missile into a marshmallow gun or universe-buster at will, just that it makes sense that she'd have a dialable yield function to limit collateral damage.

I could see for AOE based on feats but that's about it, feels like we're getting a bit to speculative (plus this would be utter scaling hell if we have to always account for Samus holding back by magnitudes at any given moment).

And yes, of course, there's the gameplay element of not wanting the player to just be able to blow holes in everything. But remove the gameplay for a second: does it even make sense that, "realistically," Samus is using weapons clearly capable of massive collateral damage on space platforms? She'd blow holes in every space station he boarded. I guess it's speculation, but to me, it just seems logical.

I mean, I don't think she's usually actively fighting and going all out in space stations in general, it's really only happened a few times, and every time she actually be going all out and not pulling any punches, except in Other M, but Other M ******* sucks. And we know it's definitely a gameplay thing as it's in all games, in Super she can't even do what the SA-X does. Or even in Fusion, she can roll up to the BOX, kick its ass, and then IT destroys half the area, but she can't because game.
I mean, she can turn off weapons and the like, that makes sense and is very blatantly a thing she can do, given she uh, can do that. But don't really think there's a way to make herself weaker, never really stated or implied anywhere, only the opposite.
Though maybe that's just me, I don't really opt for speculation or guesswork, I kinda like sticking to solid statements unless otherwise forced.

As for the Ridley wave beam thing...he doesn't look like he took the wave beam all that well to me. And the fact remains he was defeated, nearly killed, in three shots by Samus: wave, ice, and finally a missile. Even if we downscale Ridley's durability significantly, that puts those weapons at an extremely high amount of damage compared to what they normally do in the games.

Gonna be real chief, I don't see where the wave beam is doing some sort of ridiculous amounts of damage, he just goes "gyah!", I mean it hurt him, but it ain't like he was crippled or blown to hell or was put on his ass, he just had the wind knocked out him, probably the same as if you got punched more or less, if not better. Same with Ice, it's actually surprising how well he took that, he was frozen but he wasn't defeated or anything of the sort, just took what you'd expect for a beam that's whole schtick is ice.
Now where things ACTUALLY start doing massive damage that everyone here seems to imply, is the missile, and he actually tanks that too (though for less), what does him in is the fact he catches fire and is burned alive over a period of time. Which I'm not sure how you'd quantify, that seems less like an AP thing even and more of a heat res thing, especially given that's how he was defeated in the prologue too, the ship exploded, (he even points that out, that it's happening again) he caught fire, and burned alive, he only lived because he ate the corpses, which obviously wasn't available to him here. Maybe he just kinda sucks with flames and burn damage
Regardless, this is basically the same as Ridley getting slapped across the face twice and then stabbed, like, yeah he was beaten and he took a fuckton of damage, but it wasn't the first two things that were the cause of it.

Also that's why "at most" exists.

Then again, I have other things I gotta take care of, can we all agree just to scale his ass to Gray so we can avoid huge back forths, that or some toher alternative ig.

This I will leave to people who can actually do such things. I feel like the laser destroying the Leviathan utterly shows the huge amount of energy involved, and Ridley would have smashed into it at high speed given the ~20km fall into it. I think...heh. Still learning maths and what assumptions to make and such, so forgive me any errors; they are genuine and not me trying to wank anybody.

Actually that levi point might be helpful, I may be able to work with that. And wank? It won't end up any higher than he already is, it'd just be a supporting feat, which is never a bad thing, I dont see it hitting planet or above tho.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

I guess the Ridley thing is a matter of interpretation. To me, it looks like it drops him from the sky, kind of convulsing, tears open his skin, and stops him from finishing the attack he was preparing. But art is subjective.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'd prefer honesty yeah. If it's simple and warrants just a single response, I'll do so, but we're juggling several topics here, with a whole slew of different sources, events, instances, games, manga, lore and examples for every single point brought up.
It's not "I disagree" it's "i disagree, here's why [reasoning] and also here's why I disagree with your reasoning". If you just want half-assed responses, sure, i disagree with your scaling, I find it disingenuous, hypocritical, mostly made up, and lacks a huge amount of evidence or concrete proof for the majority of what's on the profiles. That good enough? And pot meet kettle, your responses ain't exactly short either, but given the forum we're on, I hold no issues if you want to make long posts to reply to a long topic. It might get tedious, but best it get the proper attention it needs instead of just glossing over things.

I understand what you're saying but take a look at some of our responses. The majority of my replies are your comments, and your replies at times are paragraphs focused on a single sentence.

Better to go all in and cover as much ground as possible instead of just a simple half-baked response. And I wasn't responding to that exclusively, earlier in the thread you said it makes sense that a weaker character tanking hits but still losing would be a tier below, in the case of Ridley, but you failed to realize that tier difference is a 500x gap, yet you're doing the same exact thing here. It was more me disagreeing and also pointing out hypocrisy in the statement.

"maybe not this exact post, but you've done so multiple times now in general" - me.
I quite literally said you might not be doing that in that exact post, but you've done so numerous times throughout the this thread. And you bringing up the profiles continuously as evidence to back your claims means nothing given I'm contesting most of it in the first place. The profiles saying something is a nonargument. That was my point. It isn't me misinterpreting, it's me telling you to cut it out, I'm aware of what you're trying to say, I just vehemently disagree with based on the arguments and evidence provided.

And yes, the reasoning behind the scaling is faulty, which is why I take issue with it.

I mean the scaling still works. It just goes from Low 6-B Power Suit Samus < At least Low 6-B Ridley < 6-B Samus. I also don't know why you're scaling Grey Voice to Ridley, iirc Ridley doesn't tank any hit and Grey Voice's weapon is specifically older than any recognizable Chozo technology (At the time ofc).

Not really, I just checked, Samus gets pissed, starts attacking MB and Ridley just swoops down and nonchalantly puts her on her ass and is like "Really? This is the comrade? ". He even calls her pathetic. Worthless junk, and does so while laughing while he casually slaps her around. And when she goes to ZS, he gets pissed and tries some actual humiliation and tortue-esque methods upon learning who she was. And he's told to cut it out.

Then find new scaling? We need actual new scaling Data, I've asked if you yourself had any ideas a few times now.
And I'm saying that scaling chain isn't accurate. I thought that was clear enough I vehemently with the Varia >>>> power Suit, at least in regards to some of its weaponry.

I think there is a really clear difference between insulting her while still bashing her in a fight and humiliating her in regards to eating her mother. Especially since IIRC he clearly doesn't go all out once the K2-L part is brought up. Can't say the same before though.

And? How long before? He never specifies when, merely that he knows of them. Was it years and years prior to that scene? Or just a bit? We don't know, but we do know it wasn't before the events of ZM in that specific scene as Joey was there and wasn't a literal infant. So there's like a half-decade timeframe it needs to fall into, ain't unlikely.

Well, chapter 6 states Joey's dad died about a year before the manga. So it's about 4 years from ZM. Still, I doubt random wartorn nations would manage to create missiles that would make the Chozo tech outdated in 4 years.

Earlier part? You linked literally the last chapter of that manga my dude, unless you mean hose hunters were fought early on, which isn't an argument really, the manga starts off with Samus being roided as **** and she had some issues with them both.
And that one dude is strong as ****, he can cut through Samus' armor quite easily, he cleanly chops off a chunk of her arm-cannon, which is how they get the tech-specs in the first place. Plus we don't know how they actually faired but given one of them has a weapon that can harm Varia Samus and slice chunks of her off cleanly, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he could take out powerful, albeit weaker, replicas of Samus' tech. (Actually those are Integra Units, wtf, they should've got their ass kicked).

And I'm aware of the nuclear explosion, I calced it even, it's like almost in the petaton range. Also, ignore that multiple weapons they made that pushed Samus to her limit and harmed her quite easily and most of the weapons based on Samus were destroyed by Samus and others on her way there, not the explosion.

Didn't the first one had to ask Samus to hold back on him by not using her arm cannon? While the second guy is admittedly better, he still was forced to use Joey as a hostage to fight Samus and never mind the outcome of the match being a 3 shot. But yeah, as you mentioned, they were fighting Integra Units who also failed.

Well, the fact that the guy was sure the missile would destroy Samus and it destroyed whatever weapons did remain should still mean it counts.

Their results where tragic Data, the Pirates couldn't replicate the Morph Ball and had deaths while failing to do it. The Feds could barely even make a lackluster suit in the events of Federation Force. And you said yourself earlier, neither have any hope of even coming close to Samus, of course I argued that isn't inherently the case anymore, but if the two biggest factions take over a decade with much more resources and info and a black-market place could shit out competent and powerful droids that can tank hits and harm Samus in like, idk, a few weeks with the proper material, yeah, surprisingly competent. Though, I actually found a statement that would support your argument of Varia getting stronger, I'll go take a look at the raws and see if it's accurate, and if it is, hey you lucked out, but it's unfortunate that I'm having to find solid evidence for your argument instead of you yourself. Though if you did luck out it would straight up confirm my end on this argument in that the droids were bafflingly powerful and would at minimum, be within the same ballpark as Varia if not above it.

In a thread where this was the sole focus, I'm pretty sure most users would have agreed with my like, 4 or 5 comments about the Varia Suit making her suit more powerful. As limiting it to physical strength and trying to change the context into a durability buff (Which doesn't happen in MP2), were pretty weak. If you found another quote, I guess that just adds to it.

I was talking surface area Data which is usually how we calc things like this (After all, the explosion wouldn't be hyper-focused, it'd spread out across it), if we go simply by thickness we're talking a few inches for MB and like 100km thick off that scan, so sure, maybe not trillions if ya wanna go that route, it'd be like, a billion or so. Would put the shields MB has at a generous 8-A+.

I don't think we calculate durability based on the difference in the size between the same material. The epicenter would still be treated 6-B, which would still not affect whatever surface area was affected.

The BSL station's self destruct device has been jokingly (and none jokingly if the archives are to be trusted), to be alluded to as a anti-matter bomb. The explosion was tier 4, (Or maybe just really ******* high 5-A, it was above yotta tho, so it was either High 5-A or knocking on tier 4).

Going to have to ask where you're getting that from?

Disagree with most of it. Might agree with some of it depending on what the raws say, but some ain't all, we still have issues no matter what it says.

Not really, trillions would actually be accurate if we did it by surface area, if we go by thickness, it's billions (about 3.9 billion). Would end up 8-A+ or around there. Maybe Low 7-C if lucky?

Since its a repeat of some of the above posts, I'm just quoting to acknowledge I saw it.

Yes I'm trying to cover every wielder because we're gonna HAVE TO. It ain't like we only have Samus' profile and that's it, more characters exist Data. You're complicating the scaling, not making it simpler. We're outright gonna have to take a look over everything if we go your way.

Edit: Checked raws, similar but not quite. Worded like a temporary boost, not permanent.
Edit 2: Getting an actual translation done.

Explain it to me, how does Samus amping her equipment suddenly affect everyone else? By your logic, we've had an issue since the Charge Beam existed, as it amps beams temporarily.

 

[SomebodyData]

@SomebodyData
I'm going to change my argument, yeah she screamed but that damage can be related to the pain from the cold generated rather than an AP thing. Which make sense because as you said, she doesn't have any protection from the temps.

And is probably more logical than to say that she was unaffected by the ice cage with no ill effect, and only got damaged by some weird third attack that somehow scales to dura.

As for the SA-X that can also be related to the Samus not being able to 100% withstand the cold of the Ice Beam, even with the Varia Suit. Again I'm not going to buy this extra level damage from ice that somehow scales to dura.

I mean, cold at the temperature the Ice Beam fires would just outright kill her if that was the case.

Well if we go off Adam in Fusion, that's not the case. The Varia Suit makes her resistant enough to withstand all of the cold. Otherwise, her innate weakness would have just killed her there.

I also don't understand your adversion to this, I mean, what do you think Charge Beam does the Ice Beam? Make it colder? Or how about the fact that Ice Beam stacks ontop of regular attacks? Does the Plasma Beam suddenly do no damage because the Ice Beam is involved?

I know that, hence why I'm so pushy into removing this from the profiles as scalable to anything outside of AP. The wiki has become far more stricter when it comes to those heat/cold feats, so Iceman can't work as an example any longer (And he should honestly get the Human Torch treatment).

From this point I feel we are just going to repeat the same things over and over again, I have established my stance and I'm prolly not changing it, so calling out more people that know about the subject to decide what is best is better idea rn.

I would assume they covered Iceman alongside the Human Torch (Given they're the same verse), so I think Iceman showing that its still viable for scaling in certain conditions should work.

 

[Chariot190]

I understand what you're saying but take a look at some of our responses. The majority of my replies are your comments, and your replies at times are paragraphs focused on a single sentence.

And I realize that and kinda just gave you ample chances in the last few posts to drop this and come to a compromise but guess not.
And I don't give a shit if it's single sentence or a literal book, the length doesn't change the subject matter.

I mean the scaling still works. It just goes from Low 6-B Power Suit Samus < At least Low 6-B Ridley < 6-B Samus. I also don't know why you're scaling Grey Voice to Ridley, iirc Ridley doesn't tank any hit and Grey Voice's weapon is specifically older than any recognizable Chozo technology (At the time ofc).

I explained why, very, very, ******* clearly.
Ridley annihilates him with a beam and skewers him in the armor. Grey Voice tanked his own attacks with zero damage, Grey Voice's attacks can harm the shields. ergo, Ridley scales to the shields because Grey Voice does and Grey Voice's durability scales to his own attacks.
Like holy shit Data, I said this half a dozen times, and you can't even use the excuse of "it got lost in the length of the posts" because I made sure to reiterate it multiple times at the end of them, and I first mentioned it early on.

I even gave scans.

I think there is a really clear difference between insulting her while still bashing her in a fight and humiliating her in regards to eating her mother. Especially since IIRC he clearly doesn't go all out once the K2-L part is brought up. Can't say the same before though.

The point is he was never attacking with killing intent, it was made pretty blatant he wasn't trying to kill before or after he knew, for two completely different reasons, but said reasons exist all the same.

Well, chapter 6 states Joey's dad died about a year before the manga. So it's about 4 years from ZM. Still, I doubt random wartorn nations would manage to create missiles that would make the Chozo tech outdated in 4 years.

Wartorn nations didn't create said missiles, that black group did, said black group also managed to make Integra Units, which did give Chozo tech a run for its money.
You're just assuming, that's honestly the majority of your arguments, assumptions, and in this case it's even worse because your assumption is demonstrably false, they can and did make tech that can be a threat to Chozo tech.

Didn't the first one had to ask Samus to hold back on him by not using her arm cannon? While the second guy is admittedly better, he still was forced to use Joey as a hostage to fight Samus and never mind the outcome of the match being a 3 shot. But yeah, as you mentioned, they were fighting Integra Units who also failed.

Well, the fact that the guy was sure the missile would destroy Samus and it destroyed whatever weapons did remain should still mean it counts.

No, the first hunter had some black gravity tech Samus managed to get around via morph ball because pseudo-science, he did manage to push her back a little, not drastically, but he do.
The instance you're thinking of is the proto-type armor the black group made, which is of course, a fuckton weaker than Samus, by over 500x.

You're oversimplifying it, him getting put on his ass by an angered Samus in a few hits and surviving isn't exactly an anti-feat when he in turn can one shot Samus. His weapon is strong as ****, he's not as skilled or durable as Samus, but his attack output is ludicrous, he's hyper specialized, while Samus beats him in some categories, he beats her in raw damage to the point he can slice through Samus like a wet tissue, because he did. Don't leave out important context and scenes lad.
The Integra Units failed? Dude the Integra Units were stronger than Samus, it took a rage amp to defeat o n e, while prior Samus outright states she can't hurt it, she was overpowered and more. A single unit was on par if not greater than base varia in power and durability, except greater because it overpowered a charge attack and took zero damage from plasma beam. Which also goes back to said "group not being able to match chozo tech", they did, they did in a few weeks, maybe months.

Yeah I'm sure the missile would have destroyed whatever little remnants existed, given Samus went out of her way to blow up everything of threat and issue herself personally and he was well aware of it.

Edit: Actually you weren't wrong, the first hunter proposed no weapons, but you ignored the part where he ALSO didn't use weapons. It was a mutual thing, he attacked with only CQC for the first half. Though he was shown demonstrably weaker than Samus when she got going, his gravity bomb actually did inflict damage and she really only managed to get out due to the Morph Ball being a counter to it. I also want to point out that he took a killing intent attack and lived as well as Samus punching his face in. Which is notable because Samus has zero issue killing and has no issue vaporizing or blowing holes straight through dudes, the fact he survived while many others failed to is evidence enough he isn't magnitudes below her.

In a thread where this was the sole focus, I'm pretty sure most users would have agreed with my like, 4 or 5 comments about the Varia Suit making her suit more powerful. As limiting it to physical strength and trying to change the context into a durability buff (Which doesn't happen in MP2), were pretty weak. If you found another quote, I guess that just adds to it.

Data get off your high horse, your quotes ******* suck, point blank. Ignoring the fact it states "strength", not power, which coincides with your other quote stating it increases physical prowess and making any argument that strength could be talking about the suit's weaponry and power output to be magnitudes higher instead of the other two things we know it increases that aren't that (That being physicals and durability, both of which are more likely given the precedence and wording, hell given quotes like ""The Varia Suit adds increased heat resistance to Samus Aran's Power Suit. While the Varia Suit can handle higher temperatures than normal, extreme heat sources and heat-based attacks are still capable of damaging the Varia Suit's shield strength.", among numerous other statements that add more context to your statements). Changing the context into a durability buff, need I remind you that in every single game the suit is featured in the only thing it does is increase durability. Need I remind you the whole ******* concept of the suit and why it exists is entirely defensive. Let's not even get into the fact it isn't even called ******* Varia, the actual name is BARRIER SUIT, Varia being just a really bad translation, now why is it called Barrier? Because it's a protective suit. It's not me who's changing context, it's you who's ignoring context. Something you seem to do a lot of.
And I don't give a damn what imaginary hypothetical users that don't exist agreeing with you think.

I don't think we calculate durability based on the difference in the size between the same material. The epicenter would still be treated 6-B, which would still not affect whatever surface area was affected.

We literally do. The epicenter isn't 6-B, the whole of the blast is 6-B, the reason why dudes or thing tanking an object at the epicenter scale in full is because they're close enough to where the whole of the blast would expand past them, hitting them. It's why we calculate shit like that via surface area.

Going to have to ask where you're getting that from?

Interview archive. I can find the jokingly off hand statement at least, that's readily available. Finding the more serious statement though is proving issue, same with a handful of statements actually, having trouble finding the ZM manga is canon quote too. And no, that's not me hinting at it not being canon, I know it exists, i've seen it before, I just can't find it.

Explain it to me, how does Samus amping her equipment suddenly affect everyone else? By your logic, we've had an issue since the Charge Beam existed, as it amps beams temporarily.

Have fun figuring out does and doesn't scale to certain feats basically. Who knows how amped she was while doing this or that. etc. Also the raws imply it's a temp boost fyi, though it still says infinitely so I guess while enraged her power steadily increases without limit? Seems a bit NLF but eh.


Now I'm only gonna ask one more time, are we going to scale Ridley to Grey Voice or do you have an alternative. Because I've asked nearly a dozen times if you had any ideas or alternatives and you've given quite literally nothing of help in regards to that.

 

[Chariot190]

Here I'll make this simple.



Bird tanks his own attack point blank under his feet, with it even being focused on him due to the plating. Takes zero damage. (Also a 100year old chozo tech can damage the shields fyi, think about that for a moment).



Bird's attacks can get past a wall of the shield, albeit with a handful of attacks (But that's standard stuff, even Samus takes like a dozen attacks to break through thin ones, point is, he can damage it just fine and eventually straight up destroy it).



Ridley tells him to **** off and die, and so he does.

 

[SomebodyData]

And I realize that and kinda just gave you ample chances in the last few posts to drop this and come to a compromise but guess not.
And I don't give a shit if it's single sentence or a literal book, the length doesn't change the subject matter.

And like I mentioned before (of course now I'll just be blunter) your compromise is not even consistent with your own arguments so I'm being forced to at least get some sense out of this. Like, earlier you arguing against scaling Mother brain's barrier to 6-B only to.... try to scale Ridley to 6-B via the walls? Like what?

I explained why, very, very, ******* clearly.
Ridley annihilates him with a beam and skewers him in the armor. Grey Voice tanked his own attacks with zero damage, Grey Voice's attacks can harm the shields. ergo, Ridley scales to the shields because Grey Voice does and Grey Voice's durability scales to his own attacks.
Like holy shit Data, I said this half a dozen times, and you can't even use the excuse of "it got lost in the length of the posts" because I made sure to reiterate it multiple times at the end of them, and I first mentioned it early on.

I even gave scans.

You have been quite literally arguing against the scaling of the zebeite barrier for every post. You can't explain for shit why you're arguing for two entirely contradictory points.

Yeah you said this half a dozen times, you also said you're against the walls being 6-B. So please, make up your mind.

The point is he was never attacking with killing intent, it was made pretty blatant he wasn't trying to kill before or after he knew, for two completely different reasons, but said reasons exist all the same.

That's because that's complete speculation and you know it, there is no reason why a few petty insults would mean he's holding back entire tiers worth of strength. Like where are you even putting Power Suit Samus here with your scaling?

Wartorn nations didn't create said missiles, that black group did, said black group also managed to make Integra Units, which did give Chozo tech a run for its money.
You're just assuming, that's honestly the majority of your arguments, assumptions, and in this case it's even worse because your assumption is demonstrably false, they can and did make tech that can be a threat to Chozo tech.

The black group created that specific missile, it's a complete assumption to assume they made the one used in Joey's flashback of the wartorn nations. Especially since Diesel just considers another tactical missile, more impressed by the fact that they have missiles rather than that specific one. https://www.metroid-database.com/old_site/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0015/scaled/sc_098.jpg

Ah yes, because an entire group being annihilated by some morph ball bombs and a charged Plasma Beam is a good sign. And then another group was busted by two other bounty hunters that both failed against Samus.

The only Integra unit that did well was the first one, and that's iffy. https://www.metroid-database.com/old_site/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0014/scaled/sc_086.jpg As several of its bootleg Power Bombs only really managed to bruise her up, whereas her own Power Bomb busted both of its arm cannons (Despite only being in one) and then destroyed it with an amped Super Missile.

The worst part is that it doesn't even matter.

https://www.metroid-database.com/old_site/manga/samus_joey3_en/ch_0014/scaled/sc_085.jpg As you say below, Integra units are 500x stronger than their previous technology and only came about after studying Samus' technology. Bunker Missiles exists long before this. There's no reason we should assume the Bunker Missiles should be in any way comparable to the competence of the Integra units which already are specifically thanks to data obtained on Samus by stealing a chunk of her arm cannon.

No, the first hunter had some black gravity tech Samus managed to get around via morph ball because pseudo-science, he did manage to push her back a little, not drastically, but he do.
The instance you're thinking of is the proto-type armor the black group made, which is of course, a fuckton weaker than Samus, by over 500x.

You're oversimplifying it, him getting put on his ass by an angered Samus in a few hits and surviving isn't exactly an anti-feat when he in turn can one shot Samus. His weapon is strong as ****, he's not as skilled or durable as Samus, but his attack output is ludicrous, he's hyper specialized, while Samus beats him in some categories, he beats her in raw damage to the point he can slice through Samus like a wet tissue, because he did. Don't leave out important context and scenes lad.
The Integra Units failed? Dude the Integra Units were stronger than Samus, it took a rage amp to defeat o n e, while prior Samus outright states she can't hurt it, she was overpowered and more. A single unit was on par if not greater than base varia in power and durability, except greater because it overpowered a charge attack and took zero damage from plasma beam. Which also goes back to said "group not being able to match chozo tech", they did, they did in a few weeks, maybe months.

She only used the morph ball by the near-end of the bomb, and even then, it's kinda ridiculous to assume the morph ball made her escape completely when she just says it's the best shape against gravity.

Let's not even bring up the proto-type; the fact that he was 500x weaker and this was still after they got their hands on Samus' tech goes to show this group's bunker missile is all that impressive in the verse. Or the other ones that got one shot prior to the chapter with the Integra units.

Quite literally a few pages later, Samus fights a group of Integra units and just destroys them with a charged beam and a couple of morph ball bombs (not even counting the one that was destroyed by Samus smashing it into the ground). And then the bounty hunters fight the group of Integras in the final chapter. It seems the first Integra is the only one that actually really managed to put in a fight, and even then it was ultimately not successful and like mentioned earlier was definitely weaker.

Yeah I'm sure the missile would have destroyed whatever little remnants existed, given Samus went out of her way to blow up everything of threat and issue herself personally and he was well aware of it.

Edit: Actually you weren't wrong, the first hunter proposed no weapons, but you ignored the part where he ALSO didn't use weapons. It was a mutual thing, he attacked with only CQC for the first half. Though he was shown demonstrably weaker than Samus when she got going, his gravity bomb actually did inflict damage and she really only managed to get out due to the Morph Ball being a counter to it. I also want to point out that he took a killing intent attack and lived as well as Samus punching his face in. Which is notable because Samus has zero issue killing and has no issue vaporizing or blowing holes straight through dudes, the fact he survived while many others failed to is evidence enough he isn't magnitudes below her.

Also, by now they've been in mass production as stated in the manga and the fact that Diesel cut off all reinforcements says that a significant chunk would have still remained, either way the remaining ones would have been destroyed by an explosion that couldn't even destroy Samus' gunship.

As far as I'm aware, the first bounty hunter's only weapon was the gravity bomb. Like the other bounty hunter, he seems to be mostly cqc. Also the fact that the second hunter survived (Although being knocked out in one hit isn't as impressive anyways), is just be mercy. I mean, she quite literally left him alive for crying out loud despite being knocked out. Especially since we know these hunters did end up coming to the aid of Samus in the end and the fact that she didn't finish off either despite having a very clear chance to do so.

Data get off your high horse, your quotes ******* suck, point blank. Ignoring the fact it states "strength", not power, which coincides with your other quote stating it increases physical prowess and making any argument that strength could be talking about the suit's weaponry and power output to be magnitudes higher instead of the other two things we know it increases that aren't that (That being physicals and durability, both of which are more likely given the precedence and wording, hell given quotes like ""The Varia Suit adds increased heat resistance to Samus Aran's Power Suit. While the Varia Suit can handle higher temperatures than normal, extreme heat sources and heat-based attacks are still capable of damaging the Varia Suit's shield strength.", among numerous other statements that add more context to your statements). Changing the context into a durability buff, need I remind you that in every single game the suit is featured in the only thing it does is increase durability. Need I remind you the whole ******* concept of the suit and why it exists is entirely defensive. Let's not even get into the fact it isn't even called ******* Varia, the actual name is BARRIER SUIT, Varia being just a really bad translation, now why is it called Barrier? Because it's a protective suit. It's not me who's changing context, it's you who's ignoring context. Something you seem to do a lot of.
And I don't give a damn what imaginary hypothetical users that don't exist agreeing with you think.

Damn, you really can't read for shit. I quite literally added every single time that the quote came from Metroid Prime 2, the one game that the Varia Suit doesn't increase durability.

Also, lmao at you using Vara Suit trivia like no one ******* knows about that but you. Everyone ******* knows. Ever since the original typo, it became the official ENG name of the suit. It's not just irrelevant, but ******* stupid as an argument. Just because its main purpose is durability, doesn't mean it only increase durability. For ****'s sake, the second thing it's known for is for including heat resistance.

Also what the **** is with your contradictory stances? One second it includes physical strength amp the next it's just a protective suit. Just like the scaling with Grey Voice and the walls, you can't keep a single point straight.

We literally do. The epicenter isn't 6-B, the whole of the blast is 6-B, the reason why dudes or thing tanking an object at the epicenter scale in full is because they're close enough to where the whole of the blast would expand past them, hitting them. It's why we calculate shit like that via surface area.

Your point about the epicenter not being 6-B is by pointing out getting hit in the epicenter would fully scale and thus make the durability 6-B anyways? If this isn't nitpicking to a ******* extreme, I don't know what is.

Interview archive. I can find the jokingly off hand statement at least, that's readily available. Finding the more serious statement though is proving issue, same with a handful of statements actually, having trouble finding the ZM manga is canon quote too. And no, that's not me hinting at it not being canon, I know it exists, i've seen it before, I just can't find it.

Have fun figuring out does and doesn't scale to certain feats basically. Who knows how amped she was while doing this or that. etc. Also the raws imply it's a temp boost fyi, though it still says infinitely so I guess while enraged her power steadily increases without limit? Seems a bit NLF but eh.

I still don't quite understand your point here? Does having Charge Beam or etc really fuss up the scaling for you? If so, I'm not sure what to say other than it sounds like your scaling is absurdly complex. Like for example, where the hell is the Ing at? A threat to Varia Suit Samus but beaten by the power beam initially, so 5-B AP with tier 6(ish) durability?

Now I'm only gonna ask one more time, are we going to scale Ridley to Grey Voice or do you have an alternative. Because I've asked nearly a dozen times if you had any ideas or alternatives and you've given quite literally nothing of help in regards to that.

Unfortunately, I've had to contend with you repeatedly making contradictory statements, like in this case with the MotherBrain's barrier not scaling except for here apparently.

 

[Newendigo]

Was not Varia from the word variable because Samus varies between suits or something

Also, chill.

I mean, cold at the temperature the Ice Beam fires would just outright kill her if that was the case. Well if we go off Adam in Fusion, that's not the case. The Varia Suit makes her resistant enough to withstand all of the cold. Otherwise, her innate weakness would have just killed her there.

This quite literally can be argued against with the same reasons I stated earlier, like again, I personally not going to buy the third level damage over her just simply being unable to tank that extreme cold.

I can do this for your next argument:

I also don't understand your adversion to this, I mean, what do you think Charge Beam does the Ice Beam? Make it colder? Or how about the fact that Ice Beam stacks ontop of regular attacks? Does the Plasma Beam suddenly do no damage because the Ice Beam is involved?

No, I don't think it would make it colder, I think the attack will deal more power/energy/force, whatever you want to called it, with the addition of extreme cold.

But the energy of power/charged beam wouldn't be comparable to the amount of heat the ice beam can suck up, because as I said before the different energy process are unscalable even inside a universal power system.

The plasma beam is sorta the reason as to why I jumped to "Lets not scale people from this at all" due how physics breaking it is, so make don't me advocate for the stacked up power beam literally scaling to nobody.

I would like to hear the opinions from someone else. If enough people disagree with my reasons then I will leave the debate.

I would assume they covered Iceman alongside the Human Torch (Given they're the same verse), so I think Iceman showing that its still viable for scaling in certain conditions should work.

This is prolly a issue of the verse itself, how the verse is handled, and how old the profiles are.

 

[SomebodyData]

This quite literally can be argued against with the same reasons I stated earlier, like again, I personally not going to buy the third level damage over her just simply being unable to tank that extreme cold.

I can do this for your next argument:

Well, I was trying to explain why it can't. Unless you think a person with 0 resistance can survive near-absolute zero temp, it wouldn't just be damage, it would just outright kill her.

Plus, seems kinda weird to make this an argument, the only time she's had issues with cold is with the Fusion Suit. Maybe if this was in reverse, with her resisting the Plasma Beam (Since she's only shown to be able to endure the sun and magma for a limited period of time), then probably.

No, I don't think it would make it colder, I think the attack will deal more power/energy/force, whatever you want to called it, with the addition of extreme cold.

But the energy of power/charged beam wouldn't be comparable to the amount of heat the ice beam can suck up, because as I said before the different energy process are unscalable even inside a universal power system.

The plasma beam is sorta the reason as to why I jumped to "Lets not scale people from this at all" due how physics breaking it is, so make don't me advocate for the stacked up power beam literally scaling to nobody.

I bolded the parts I'm a bit surprised about. The first is quite literally the acknowledgement that the Ice Beam also does regular AP damage which renders the debate moot, and the second one is quite literally how the beams work in any 2-D game; it's not even obscure, it's up and center. How can you advocate for it not to stack?

In regards to comparing them, yeah the Power Beam isn't as strong as the Ice Beam. But canonically the Wave Beam and Plasma Beam are comparable (Actually a lot stronger) than the Ice Beam.

I would like to hear the opinions from someone else. If enough people disagree with my reasons then I will leave the debate.

This is prolly a issue of the verse itself, how the verse is handled, and how old the profiles are.

I would say at least backpedal the bolded parts I mentioned since I think (especially) the last part is recognizable enough that even non-Metroid fans know about it.

Idk, considering they're part of the same verse, I would assume they'd be both equal in terms of up to datedness.

 

[Newendigo]

Another thing.

My proposal should work for the future CRT that @Chariot will probably make.

The ice beam is used by the power suit and the feat is unrelated to the Legendary suit or done through any amp, meaning it has to scale to the two previous keys.

This sorta would bring the issue of whether those allegedy weaker suits show comparable power on a consistent basis, and might risk the feat of being an outlier if not proven (Which I sorta find it hard to do).

So as I have been saying, don't scale the Ice Beam to physicals outsite of AP so whatever scaling being used stays relatively the same.

 

[SomebodyData]

...Huh? Chariot's point was completely against your Ice beam user relativity argument, idk how its anywhere workable.

Like, the entire argument between Chariot and I began because I agreed with that part (only) of your argument.

 

[Newendigo]

He agreed with me on the part in which the feat wouldn't scale to durability. I stopped arguing for user relativism a while ago based of your reasoning and his.

I probably need to read the thread again, it got all too long.

 

[Newendigo]

Bump.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah

 

[Newendigo]

Well, let's try to focus on a replacement for Samus' 6-C feat and recalculate the Ship crash if that has any issue, I can later talk again over wheter or not we should scale the freezing feat to physicals.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well if you agree with Chariot like you're saying, then it'd just boost her to tier 6-B or tier 5-B (Assuming he still believes ZM Ridley should be scaled to his older iterations).

 

[Newendigo]

He said that he could get more base suits to higher than the High 6-A feat, earlier in the thread.

Upgrading it to 6-B would be extremely temporal as he seems to disagree with the justification given, so 5-B might be the way to go.