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Metroid: 2 Downgrades

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2,860
Hello.

I was planning to work on this downgrade after finishing with the IM revisions, but life took priority and I slowed down

But now is time. This thread will mostly bring up issues that were previously glossed over in this CRT.


Ridley destroying a mountain


So, this one is pretty simple; The calculation used for the 6-C tiering is sus, according to Armorchompy:
"I'm not sure how related this is to what you're arguing, but Ridley's 6-B calc uses the size of a mountain for pixel scaling "(Using the minimum height for a mountain (300 meters, according to Wikipedia at least, I would like it if someone could find a better source.)" on what appears to be a 10 meters tall rock at best, but I've just gona through that part of the manga and found zero mention of it being one."

(Armor saying "6-B" was just a typing mistake)

Something that Chariot agreed with, and said he would recalculated it, but never happened (I think) and the issue was glossed over for another thread.

Freezing a star with the ice beam


Also something that was brought up before in the same thread but was glossed over.

"We actually do scale freezing feats to AP and the like, just not to someone's durability, so it can scale to Samus' AP and tech on par but if someone tanked it it would be just ice resistance (******* absolutely insane resistance, but still), at least that's what I've gathered from the multitude of threads on this subject or ones close to it."

But I do argue that it shouldn't even scale to her AP.

Here is the manga chapter for full context, short summary of it:

The feat is done by a electrical being named Chrysta fused to a large power plant inside the sun, maintaining both the surface and part of the inner core frozen to protect the entrance and facility from the rest of the hellish heat still active.

Once Samus destroys Chrysta and regains her Ice Beam ability, the entire facility starts melting down, to avoid complete incineration while trying to escape Joey scatters the ice beam around the ship to fight back against the fire, which still leaves parts of the ship burned.

Not only this is hard evidence against Samus's durability scaling to this feat, it also proves it can't to her AP aswell.

While is stated that Chrysta managed to freeze parts of the sun thanks to the Ice Beam, is likely this was also done because of massive power supply he got from the facility (The aforemented powerplants and the harvested core parts, which were used by his Greed Corps like him).

You can also notice the massive gap between Chrysta and Samus using the Ice Beam:
  • While Chrysta froze the star's surface immediatly (Is what the calc assumes) with part of the inner core, and passively maintained both like this, preventing it from melting at any point while working on there...

  • Samus could only fight back against fractions of the sun's fire while escaping, instead of outright overpowering it like how Chrysta did, and even then Joey and her ship still got burns after leaving.

TL;DR: Samus's ice beam shouldn't scale to Chrysta's feat because the latter had more power and you can directly see how she largely underperforms compared to him.

My proposal is to recalculate the first feat and knock off Power Suit to whatever is the result (According to Armor, there are better feats in the manga to use aswell).

As for the second feat, either downgrade her Legendary Power Suit to 6-B, or at least her durability section if my arguments aren't accepted.
 
I strongly disagree with the 2nd example especially, but this came at a bad time for me as I'm taking care of RL stuff. But hopefully @SomebodyData can explain it better. But I do not have the best details about the 1st example, but it should not be too big of a downgrade; should be well into Tier 7 at bare minimum still.
 
Sure.

Even if you disagree with my reasoning to no use the feat for her AP, you have to admit that it can't scale a bit to her durability nowadays.
 
Actually, it can via universal energy systems that are going to be elaborated later as well as the fact that her Plasma Beam and Ice Beam still universally interchangable.
 
Universal energy system won't make the ice feat scale to other attacks according to Wokistan due to the different process of energy.

My reasoning for not scaling Chrysta's feat to Samus' ice beam still stand, too.
 
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I do not agree with him, neither does DontTalkDT or Mr. Bambu. And they're overlooking important definitions of what "Energy Manipulation" even means or the actual scientific process of how conductivity or fusion energy work. But this is off topic, I'm saving that for later. Also, she still uses a single use Ice Beam to do the feat and there was no amplifications. In fact, even Samus' own use of it is considered more potent.

Still, I think it's best to wait for SomebodyData.
 
Ridley Feat

Well if you check the calc, the area Ridley blasts was the plateau. I used a mountain next to it to calculate the size of the explosion. We accepted it as a mountain since well, it looks like a mountain and is connected to the mountain range in the background. It also pretty clearly towers over the trees next to it, so I'm not sure where the 10-meter idea comes from.

sc_metroid_v02_ch0058.png


Star Feat

"Not only this is hard evidence against Samus's durability scaling to this feat, it also proves it can't to her AP as well."

I'm not sure how your summary of the events goes against Samus scaling; in fact, you didn't mention a very important part of the events. That is, Samus taking the Ice Beam head-on:

sc_2004-07.19.jpg
sc_2004-07.20-21.jpg


"While is stated that Chrysta managed to freeze parts of the sun thanks to the Ice Beam, is likely this was also done because of massive power supply he got from the facility (The aforemented powerplants and the harvested core parts, which were used by his Greed Corps like him)."

It's the opposite actually, the powerplants and harvested core parts are a result of Chrysta using the Ice Beam / built after Chyrsta used the Ice Beam on the surface of the star:

sc_2004-07.18.jpg
sc_2004-07.19.jpg


As for the comparison of Chrysta's feat and Samus escape, it's just a combination of Samus not trying to refreeze the gunship and the star; with Joey explicitly being used to the divert the ice beam into more of a barrier than a direct AoE attack.

sc_2004-07.26.jpg
 
, is likely this was also done because of massive power supply he got from the facility
That's complete conjecture and not only that, a bit sus given the beams or any of her weaponry have never really functioned like that before. It isn't even implied that the enemy was drawing power from the station.
the whole point was "hey I have your ice beam, that allowed me to do this feat". If it's just a matter of more power = better ice beam, why the **** even use Samus' Ice beam? They wouldn't need it, they could have just used any ice based or cooling weapon in place of Samus' own, it'd be completely redundant.

Matter of the fact is, they needed the Ice Beam in particular to pull that off, your drawing energy to amp it isn't actually implied and if it was that simple that could've just swapped the ice beam out for any ice weapon and did the same thing.

Also, how quickly the sun unthawed actually all but confirms the ice beam was doing it nigh instantly. If it only took like five seconds to unthaw, it would've needed to freeze it solid, in that same timeframe, otherwise, well, it wouldn't of froze, it would've just kept unthawing itself ad infinitum. The length of time it takes to unthaw is the amount of time the feat would've been done, anything more is impossible as it would've never got that far. It being used to continuously keep the sun solid is just common sense after the fact.


How is this hard evidence that she doesn't scale to it? That's a completely different feat. That's a heat based durability feat, while the ice beam is quite literally the exact opposite. Are you arguing that because the Ice Beam > That Star's surface, it means that Samus taking damage from that star's heat means she's lower than the Ice Beam durability wise? Because well, no.
Two completely different feats and interactions. Doubly so because we know she can take the Ice Beam because of the SA-X anyhow, straight up can tank her own weapon there.

There's also another critical key thing you've forgotten, all of that was done in Samus' basic ass suit. Varia would scale to her Ice beam. But the weakest suit of Samus' which explicitly lacks resistance to high heat and low temps being used as an argument as to why she can't scale "She took burn damage", well, yeah obviously, I'd be pissed if she didn't actually , she lacks defenses against that type of stuff, it's a major weakness if anything, it's half the reason Varia exists.

Essentially, I hard disagree with the second feat being tossed.
It very clearly scales to Samus' own Ice beam as it literally was.
The whole power source thing isn't implied anywhere and if it was the case they wouldn't have needed Samus' any how.
Samus taking burn damage is common sense, she doesn't have Varia.
Samus has been shown tanking her own Ice Beam in Fusion, which is actually referenced in Samus and Joey (well kinda, there was a small one shot by the same author built in).
It couldn't have been an over time feat, except actually, the feat straight up wouldn't have been possible if it took longer than a few seconds based simply on shit we see in the manga alone.
Idk the Samus needing shielding to scatter it is the only true argument I see but that could honestly just be the fact they were no shit going super fast as **** and it being Samus' weakest suit, which might not have huge AOE, especially given shit like the long beam is a actual power up she needs sometimes for that suit.
Another potential argument is the whole Ice feats =/= dura feats anyhow that was mentioned in OP, you are indeed right, but it ain't all bad. AP wise, it should still scale to Legendary Varia, given Plasma beam >>>> Ice beam in power output explicitly.
I'm fine with downgrading Basic Power Samus tho (Do we even scale power suit to this anyway? I though it was only Varia and above?), she never got slapped by a Plasma Beam in order to scale to this feat in that state. I don't think, maybe in Fusion? But like, pretty sure you ******* d i e early on 99% of the time if struck.

And yeah, **** Riddles, downgrade his ass 😩
We can straight up pixel scale the plateau off the Chozo statue there, maybe angsize the length off previous panels.

And Data said the rest of what I was thinking give or take.
 
@SomebodyData


I'm not sure how your summary of the events goes against Samus scaling; in fact, you didn't mention a very important part of the events. That is, Samus taking the Ice Beam head-on:

I didnt take into account Samus tanking the beam because I let implicit (Or more specifically chariot) that it would not scale to her durability, but her resistance.

It's the opposite actually, the powerplants and harvested core parts are a result of Chrysta using the Ice Beam / built after Chyrsta used the Ice Beam on the surface of the star.

You are right on here I guess.

As for the comparison of Chrysta's feat and Samus escape, it's just a combination of Samus not trying to refreeze the gunship and the star; with Joey explicitly being used to the divert the ice beam into more of a barrier than a direct AoE attack.

There is very little going on that scene to say that.

They are just trying to protect themselves of the heat, nothing of "better not freeze the star again with the ship too" or such.

(And why would they have such a anti-plan? The sun is going to heat up anyway once they leave, so keeping a large portion of it frozen for longer would have been a safer solution if that was ever a possibility).

I will respond to you @Chariot on another comment.
 
"better not freeze the star again with the ship too"

Wouldn't the fact they went there to unfreeze the star in the first place because people were literally dying not be evidence enough?

(Or more specifically chariot) that it would not scale to her durability, but her resistance.

That be true but...
Do we even scale Power suit to this at all? Scaling the Plasma Beam > Ice beam and then the characters who scale to Plasma Beam is aight pretty sure but, we don't even scale this suit to the star feat anyhow, isn't she only tier 6? Thought only Varia/Gravity and above was scaling to this. Well, I mean this incarnation in particular is a weird mixmash but the key she has on the profile in particular I mean.
 
I didnt take into account Samus tanking the beam because I let implicit (Or more specifically chariot) that it would not scale to her durability, but her resistance.
Well outside of what DDM said, we know the Ice Beam also does damage irrelevant of the actual freezing effect, so I'm not sure if that's accurate. For example, in Prime you have to defeat a certain sect of Pirates using only the Ice Beam, most enemies in the 2-D games apply under this too, not to mention Samus getting pretty damaged by the SA-X's Ice Beam.

There is very little going on that scene to say that.

They are just trying to protect themselves of the heat, nothing of "better not freeze the star again with the ship too" or such.

(And why would they have such a anti-plan? The sun is going to heat up anyway once they leave, so keeping a large portion of it frozen for longer would have been a safer solution if that was ever a possibility).

^Chariot's response pretty much.

As for the anti-plan part, they were in the hot core of the star. Not sure if freezing the part that keeps defrosted the surface is a- possible with only High 6-A, and b- would probably just freeze the star permanently.
 
High 6-A was done in her basic Legendary Suit, the old Power Suit no longer exists after Zero Mission pretty much.
 
Wait damn, this feat is only High 6-A? You could probably no shit get basic power suit above that with simple basic scaling.
**** I thought it was tier 5-low 4, then again, just the surface would reduce it greatly, High 6-A sounds about aight for that. So yeah, scratch what I said.

Which reminds me, do we need that Nuke calc from S&J? I got it at about 590.3468830145975266238768185427 teratons. Which is way below what Varia would scale to but eh, it exists. Maybe for her ship? Though I'm derailing, I'll wait for Op to respond and then take it over to the main discussion.
 
@Chariot190

That's complete conjecture and not only that, a bit sus given the beams or any of her weaponry have never really functioned like that before. It isn't even implied that the enemy was drawing power from the station.the whole point was "hey I have your ice beam, that allowed me to do this feat". If it's just a matter of more power = better ice beam, why the **** even use Samus' Ice beam? They wouldn't need it, they could have just used any ice based or cooling weapon in place of Samus' own, it'd be completely redundant.

This a different machine from her weapons, so I do say likely that it can work like that.

I went off with that assumption due to the vast difference between her and Chrysta's ice beam.

Yes I also admited the feat being seemingly instant, that is why I question Samus being scaled to it if she struggled with way less in a desperate situation.

How is this hard evidence that she doesn't scale to it? That's a completely different feat. That's a heat based durability feat, while the ice beam is quite literally the exact opposite. Are you arguing that because the Ice Beam > That Star's surface, it means that Samus taking damage from that star's heat means she's lower than the Ice Beam durability wise? Because well, no. Two completely different feats and interactions. Doubly so because we know she can take the Ice Beam because of the SA-X anyhow, straight up can tank her own weapon there. There's also another critical key thing you've forgotten, all of that was done in Samus' basic ass suit. Varia would scale to her Ice beam. But the weakest suit of Samus' which explicitly lacks resistance to high heat and low temps being used as an argument as to why she can't scale "She took burn damage", well, yeah obviously, I'd be pissed if she didn't actually , she lacks defenses against that type of stuff, it's a major weakness if anything, it's half the reason Varia exists.

I used this to further prove how it should not scale to durability, which was something that you/I stated previously.

I didnt take into account the special suits because it kinda of made the thing more complicated, I'm mostly dealing with individual keys not extra powers.

Wouldn't the fact they went there to unfreeze the star in the first place because people were literally dying not be evidence enough?

But they already defeated Chrysta, they have the ice beam back, they only needed to a portion of place frozen (like the entrance), leave the facility, and the sun heats up again.

But like, again this is not a possibility that is brought up at all, they are just running away.

Well outside of what DDM said, we know the Ice Beam also does damage irrelevant of the actual freezing effect, so I'm not sure if that's accurate. For example, in Prime you have to defeat a certain sect of Pirates using only the Ice Beam, most enemies in the 2-D games apply under this too, not to mention Samus getting pretty damaged by the SA-X's Ice Beam.

What kind of other damage? The first honestly sound like a weakness type of thing, and Samus being damaged by the SA-X ice beam, What does that proof?

You can still suffer damage from cold even if you arent outright frozen in a cage, if that is what you are saying.
 
This a different machine from her weapons, so I do say likely that it can work like that.

It isn't though, it's literally her Ice Beam. It's not a different machine, it's straight up h e r weapon. And also it's not a matter of likely, we need reason to believe that's even a thing, it's not even hinted at or implied, and as Data pointed out, the station came after the ice beam was used to freeze the surface, making this actually kinda redundant to talk about, we know for a fact the station had zero involvement with the initial feat.

I went off with that assumption due to the vast difference between her and Chrysta's ice beam.

That's not unreasonable, I see why one might conclude that, but there's other reasons for that at play that would explain it, especially as we know the station didn't actually help at all.

Yes I also admited the feat being seemingly instant, that is why I question Samus being scaled to it if she struggled with way less in a desperate situation.

I mean, not quite, the surface of the sun is thousands of times less temp wise compared to the core, which is where they were, that alone would instantly explain any discrepancy in showings given it's a few million temp difference.

I used this further prove how it should not scale to durability, which was something that you/I stated previously.

Tbh I'm fine with it not scaling to Durability directly, AP though I'd argue it would scale though. Though for any suit that's been slapped by a Plasma Beam I'd argue it scales for durability, as Plasma Beam's output > Ice Beam's output in every single instance I can think of, even in this manga Samus states Plasma Beam is her most powerful weapon, bar none. But Data seems to want to argue otherwise, so I'll leave that between you two.

I didnt take into account the special suits because it kinda of made the thing more complicated, I'm mostly dealing with individual keys not extra powers.

This suit in particular lacks the special resistance to high temps and low temps that Varia and Gravity and a few other has. Varia in the majority of games is needed before even entering extremely hostile environments like Norfair, because the basic suit takes heat damage (Which Varia negates completely) for example. Power Suit, while it can deal with it, it doesn't excel at it and can only do so for so long before giving out, the way it's shown in S&J is precisely how it should work, it can endure the heat, but not forever, she'd need to escape pronto, same goes for extreme cold as well, and acid but that last one doesn't matter here.

But they already defeated Chrysta, they have the ice beam back, they only needed to a portion of place frozen (like the entrance), leave the facility, and the sun heats up again.

But they weren't at the surface? They were in the core? The surface was like, a few ten thousand kilometers from where they were? And freezing the core would probably compromise the star's fission realistically speaking, it would kill it.

But like, again this is not a possibility that is brought up at all, they are just running away.

Of course, Power suit cant deal with it forever (including the cold), they're in the core not the surface, potential AOE and range issues, a whole slew of things really.
 
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Anyway, Ridley, that does need a recalc. We can see the statue caught in the blast, we can scale the statue in the previous panels and then again there, zero need for approximation. Though it's definitely taking a hit. But, we can also use ground burst if we didn't already to maybe salvage a bit of it.
 
At least we agreed on her not scaling to it in durability.

I say we wait for Armor to come up here, since he is the one who came up with the first feat not me.
 
That's easy tbh.


Now pixel scale that.

It might actually be a tad to low though after the recalc, I know he's tall as **** but still.

Would using the black hole generator feat, and doing some surface area and dividing of the shields work?
I recall a calc like that got MB's shields to be 6-C, based simply on Zebes' shields and the black hole. 6-C after dividing it the relevant amount to compensate for the ridiculously large surface area difference is pretty good, assuming the calc was legit, it's been probably a decade since I seen it, surprised I even remember it.
 
@Chariot190
What kind of other damage? The first honestly sound like a weakness type of thing, and Samus being damaged by the SA-X ice beam, What does that proof?

You can still suffer damage from cold even if you aren't outright frozen in a cage, if that is what you are saying.

It proves the Ice Beam is just as much AP as it is hax.

I'm referring to damage as AP rather than hax.
 
You do realize there is such a thing as Thermal Shock? That's basically how Samus Ice Beam/Plasma Beam work. The Plasma Beam is just as hot as the Ice Beam is cold and it's combining that together is evidence of having blunt force trauma just as great as the heating/cooling process. And it is what she used to take out these guys.
 
It proves the Ice Beam is just as much AP as it is hax. I'm referring to damage as AP rather than hax.

But you can deal damage without relying on kinetic energy/force, that doesn't directly translate to AP. Medeus just proved my very point.

You do realize there is such a thing as Thermal Shock?

Cold can do this, without a bit of the metric that durability is based off.

That's basically how Samus Ice Beam/Plasma Beam work. The Plasma Beam is just as hot as the Ice Beam is cold and it's combining that together is evidence of having blunt force trauma just as great as the heating/cooling process. And it is what she used to take out these guys.

The problem with this other thing he said, however, is that the cold can't translate to heat and force, as I mentioned earlier

Universal energy system won't make the ice feat scale to other attacks according to Wokistan due to the different process of energy.


And assuming otherwise would break physics. I know that this is Metroid and science often gets mistreated like the nerd he is, but the idea by far is the most ridiculous and we shouldn't use it for justifications.
 
I definitely agree with taking down the "mountain" feat, literally nothing says it's a mountain.

Not familiar with the manga so I can't say for certain but I am of the opinion that scaling cooling to physicals is pretty sus
 
But you can deal damage without relying on kinetic energy/force, that doesn't directly translate to AP. Medeus just proved my very point.
Thermal Shock really isn't applicable to either Samus within the manga (Who we see busts out of the ice without any mal effects) or Varia Fusion Suit Samus, who explicitly became resistant to cold. But in both cases, we know it did damage, hence why I'm saying that the Ice Beam also does AP damage alongside its ice manipulation.

And assuming otherwise would break physics. I know that this is Metroid and science often gets mistreated like the nerd he is, but the idea by far is the most ridiculous and we shouldn't use it for justifications.
I mean, Ice Manipulation alone breaks physics. Although, I guess my argument is more that the Ice Beam does AP damage alongside the freezing effect.

I definitely agree with taking down the "mountain" feat, literally nothing says it's a mountain.

Not familiar with the manga so I can't say for certain but I am of the opinion that scaling cooling to physicals is pretty sus
Like I mentioned earlier, it's connected to a mountain range and we see it tower over the trees around it. Not sure what else is needed.
sc_metroid_v02_ch0058.png


If anything, I should be making the argument that the mountains around Tourian are massive and the feat is a lowball. With the landscape around it capable of piercing the sky.

sc_metroid_v01_ch002_047.png
 
I mean, the mountain itself could be tall, the explosion obviously isn't though, we can see the Chozo statue caught and blown apart by the blast, the same Chozo statue that is probably only 10m+ tall as seen like, a few panels prior.

As seen here.

Honestly looking at it, the feat even with gravity is kinda ass, he has better things he can scale on anyhow.
 
I think that might just be perspective, considering the explosion scan shows the chozo statue as realllllly big.

I mean it was already big, but only like 3x a crippled Grey Voice. That explosion scan shows it as several times larger than the trees after the statue was mostly destroyed.
 
Just pixel scaled it, it's like, 25m explosion lad, and that's me treating him as a 9ft tall giant and being kinda generous with the explosion.

It ain't perspective, you can see the sphere and the hand, within the blast, not in front, but within.
You could also angsize the distance when he walks out and get small size as well.

You're better off finding another feat.
Or saying **** it and just scaling that Ridley to his base state in other games because there's lore zero reason why a completely organic Ridley is weaker than a completely organic Ridley by magnitudes, it ain't like he's stated to get stronger nor does he have any zenkai bullshit 🤷‍♂️
 
Yeah I don’t know why we’re shrugging off the Ice beam feat when Samus has tanked her ice beams numerous times in the series. Neutral on the Ridley mountain calc, if that needs some adjustments then I guess we can do a recalc.
 
Did a rough calc and got 8-C+, 1.202459730374799724032 megatons with gravity shit.
It was a generous one though.

That's like, the best you can get that Ridley calc. At that point may as well just find something else.
 
Like I mentioned earlier, it's connected to a mountain range and we see it tower over the trees around it. Not sure what else is needed.
A 30 meter hill could be "connected" to a mountain range, this proves nothing.
 
Yeah sure it almost certainly did, but it wouldn't be the case for Zero Mission, Super or the Ridley clones in Fusion and that which shall not be named, or any other game where it's no longer a factor. That Phazon long since left his system, not really a factor in most of his appearances.

I mean if ya don't wanna scale Ridley to Ridley that's fine by me, but the alternative is a bit of scaling hell.
 
Here's the shoddy generous scaling fyi. I'd of been more precise with it but mostly did this to show it's kinda not exactly that good even while being quite generous.


25.321^3*((27136*1.37895+8649)^(1/2)/13568-93/13568)^2 = 1.304752311604600395 tons of TNT.

1.304752311604600395x960^2 = 1.202459730374799724032 megatons of TNT.

(And that's assuming we don't halve it for obvious reasons).
I say we just find something else, Ridley tanked the ice beam in this did he not? And even a plasma beam combo, (I mean it ****** him up... but he d i d live). Maybe we can do At most and mention it really ****** him?
 
Well, the boosts granted by Phazon exist even after there's no longer any Phazon in the system (Parasite Queen, Flaragara, the Ing, etc). Plus the scaling for Ridley is pretty against the idea that Ridley should scale to his Super Metroid self (Ridley in ZM can't even damage Varia Suit Samus, but Ridley in Super Metroid is a threat to Legendary Gravity Suit Samus).
 
Sometimes characters just get stronger without any real reason, happens in fiction, ya just gotta go with it
 
I mean sure, if it was ever stated he got stronger, no such statement exists.
That's kinda the issue here.

I also want to point out that Phazon wasn't even a concept in every single game base Ridley is in, it was a thing years and years later, you could argue that maybe now it could be used as an explanation, but let's be real for a second, Phazon isn't why he's suddenly stronger, Phazon wasn't a thing.
Ridley was simply just Ridley in Super and the like, and this Phazon excuse doesn't have any effect on the Ridley clones, his clones weren't amped by Phazon and the Federation I doubt is suddenly capable of cloning and replicating and straw phazon effects on biology because damn, now that'd be a game and a half. So even if you really wanna argue the reason Ridley is stronger in Super Metroid is because Phazon (Despite being like a decade before Prime was a thing), you still need to explain both clones that are around Varia. Or the fact in the actual ZM game itself, it's Varia he fights, not Power.

And your examples there were more examples involving biological mutations , we know Ridley actively went back to normal by the time of Super (assuming him getting blown to dust wasn't a factor).

But hey, if you have better ideas be my guest.

Sometimes characters just get stronger without any real reason, happens in fiction, ya just gotta go with it

Ridley is never actually stated to have gotten stronger. The only implication we get is he's fighting Varia Samus, but I'd argue that's simply the actual tier he's at and him getting ****** by it in ZM is the odd one out, not the benchmark. Given in Super, Fusion, Other M, Ridley can fight Varia and even in the actual Zero Mission game itself, it's Varia that fights Ridley, not Power, unlike the manga.
I'm not sure why we're taking Ridley losing to Power Suit one time in a manga over every single video game fight and appearance :unsure:
 
The manga clarifies Ridley couldn't actually damage Varia Suit, not Power Suit, Samus in ZM.
sc_metroid_v2_ch16_143.png
sc_metroid_v2_ch16_144.png


I'm not sure why we're taking Ridley losing to Power Suit one time in a manga over every single video game fight and appearance :unsure:

Well, the issue is that Ridley basically lost to the weakest form of Samus in ZM and the manga, only to get stronger (to a consistent level of around Gravity Suit / Late Game Legendary Varia Suit) level.

While I don't think it was intended, Phazon is a pretty good explanation.

Headcanon here, but Prime Ridley is also shown differently from ZM Ridley, going from a blackish gray to dark purple + blue in MP3 to violet by the time of the rest of the 2-D games. It's obviously not something they thought about but Phazon blue being added only to be removed coincides with the color changes of Ridley. Also consistent with black Ridley only appearing pre-Prime, in ZM and the manga. Obviously not arguing this here, but thought it was interesting.
 
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A 30 meter hill could be "connected" to a mountain range, this proves nothing.

I mean if you look at the page, it's roughly the same size. That's not even mentioning we can see how the trees are completely overshadowed by the size of the plateau or the fact that inside that plateau is Tourian.

Which is an entire military base, I doubt it's only 30 or so meters.
 
Thermal Shock really isn't applicable to either Samus within the manga (Who we see busts out of the ice without any mal effects) or Varia Fusion Suit Samus, who explicitly became resistant to cold. But in both cases, we know it did damage, hence why I'm saying that the Ice Beam also does AP.

She doesnt even suffer damage in the manga, she is just temporaly paralyzed and destroys the ice cage right away.

As for SA-X, that can be related to the other beam effect of the Arm Cannon, which arent translatable to the ice beam potency like I said before.

I mean, Ice Manipulation alone breaks physics. Although, I guess my argument is more that the Ice Beam does AP damage alongside the freezing effect.

Perhaps, we should not scale others statistic to this outside of AP if is this physics breaking.

Also forgot to mention, this should not scale to Dura and also Striking Strength for similar reasons.
 
She doesnt even suffer damage in the manga, she is just temporarily paralyzed and destroys the ice cage right away.

As for SA-X, that can be related to the other beam effect of the Arm Cannon, which aren't translatable to the ice beam potency like I said before.

Her shout of pain suggests damage was dealt.

SA-X actually doesn't stack her weapons initially, weirdly enough. If you see footage of SA-X in her encounters, she only starts to add to the Ice Beam later on. Your guess on why this happens is as good as mine. My guess is that they didn't want to break immersion by implying Fusion Suit Samus could survive the Plasma Beam.

Perhaps, we should not scale others statistic to this outside of AP if is this physics breaking.

Also forgot to mention, this should not scale to Dura and also Striking Strength for similar reasons.

When I said Ice Manipulation breaks physics, I meant it in general. 'Cold' is the absence of energy, and most ice manipulation is usually the exact opposite of removing energy.

It's also not like we don't have examples of AP / dura scaling to ice manipulation exceptions, like Iceman. Especially when we know that the Ice Manip does damage that isn't thermal shock or temp based.
 
First of all, Cold manipulation doesn't actually "Violate physics" per say. Also this is a topic of chemistry, not physics. It only theoretically breaks physics as opposed to factually breaking it in some cases. IRL, freezing is done via extreme levels of conductivity, which in itself requires heavy amounts of fusion energy and/or electromagnetic energy via a doppler effect. Also, it scientifically requires a lot more energy than the subtrahend amount of energy. For example, liquid nitrogen requires about 6 times more energy to produce per kilogram than the amount of thermal energy being extracted per kilogram. It heat capacity of nitrogen is 1.04 KJ/(kg*K). meaning from room temperatures and going down to -210 C; which is a 230 difference in K. That's 239.2 KJ per kg. But the energy actually required to do this is 1420 KJ per kg. And the colder and colder an object gets, the harder it is too freeze it any further. It it requires an infinite amount of energy to successfully freeze an object to AZ temperatures as it requires an exothermic wave with an infinite amount of watts. Which is not realistically possible but it is mathematically possible.

Anyway, there is a certain method of cooling that would violate thermal dynamics traditionally speaking, that was into Stephen Hawking proposed a theory on negative energy. If "Deleting energy" was the standard assumption for freezing feats, then it would still be AP since it requires x joules of negative energy to delete x joules of positive energy. Anyway, not proposing that that should be the primary assumption for freezing feats, only that it's one of the tertiary examples. I do not like being bothered over premature topics, but I have a giant draft explaining things in much greater detail. I still think superconductivity via doppler effect is the standard assumption for freezing feats, especially if it's in the form of "Super cooled plasma/laser", or super powered gust of wind that puts out flames or cools lava. And then the secondary method would be compressing thermal energy/kinetic energy back into potential energy/chemical energy/fusion energy ect. Which is also still energy manipulation or ergokinesis by definition. External energy manipulation and internal energy manipulation is still energy manipulation and the two things can be interchanged. It is also not possible for an exothermic reaction without one or more endothermic reactions happening at the same time. The 3rd example being energy deletion is a method that violates traditional chemistry outside of Hawking's proposed new theory. Which would basically be treated the same way mass energy conversion feats will be treated anyway or the Big Bang Theory for that matter. Absorbing energy is an arbitrary assumption in most cases since most ice users deplete mana using ice manipulation as opposed to gain it. But the thing is even concentrating energy depletes more energy than the energy being harnessed IRL if the energy control is really precise.

Also, heat manipulation had its name changed to temperature manipulation since heat and cold are the same thing but in reverse. It takes just as much energy or work to stop a speeding boulder as it does to launch a boulder at great speeds. Even Dargoo and Agnaa eventually conceded to that after discussing it in great detail and in the former's case, listening to Kaltias explain the importance of Watts or power or intensity which is measured in watts/m^2. And Agnaa also later conceded that universal energy systems super flexible to the point where it can be if the situation be translatable. There was agreement that temperature and blunt force trauma are two widely different things last time I and DT debated with Dargoo and he still has more skepticism for universal energy systems equalizing heat and force, but Dargoo agrees that heat/cold/electricity are all the same thing when watts are taken into account. Just that those are all different than blunt force trauma outside of universal energy systems.
 
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