• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Metroid: 2 Downgrades

The manga clarifies Ridley couldn't actually damage Varia Suit, not Power Suit, Samus in ZM.
No, what the manga does is spice up events and change things. That's what it does, it doesn't clarify Ridley couldn't damage Samus in ZM if that's what you're insinuating, the fights themselves aren't even remotely the same, they don't even take place in the same locale nor do the events leading up to it even remotely similar. It's less giving details to a fight in the games and more changing a fight and event entirely to fit a narrative in a manga-sense because it's a different medium and it'd fit better for the newly awoken Samus to roll the asshole dragon into dust. While in the game, that isn't a thing so they just fight normally like they do every other time. Now I'm not saying narrative invalidates feats or scaling, definitely not, otherwise every manga ever would be ******, but I am saying manga adaption ain't taking precedence over the game it's based on in a game verse.

I also want to point out, Ridley isn't even instantly stomped, I mean he's ****** up quite badly in the manga, but he tanks the wave beam with little if any damage, he tanks the ice beam too, it's only the final shot, the shot that immolates him and sets him ablaze and burns him continuously, that he falls. He straight up tanks two attacks from her and is only beaten by being burned alive (the actual explosion from the shot too didn't do him in). The issue at hand isn't even if he can tank her attack's, because he does twice, maybe three, the issue is if he can hurt her, being the main discrepancy (And given how much of a meme Ridley dragging Varia has become...).

No offense but in the actual game itself, and every game Ridley is featured in, he's tossing hands with Varia, not power, only in a single scene in a manga is that not the case, needless to say, while the manga definitely has merit, it sure as **** ain't taking precedence over literally every single interaction with Ridley in every single other piece of media ever besides the original NES game where Varia didn't even exist.

Well, the issue is that Ridley basically lost to the weakest form of Samus in ZM and the manga, only to get stronger (to a consistent level of around Gravity Suit / Late Game Legendary Varia Suit) level.

That's the thing, never stated or hinted at to get stronger. That's mere conjecture because he lost in the manga, which is what I hold issue with, because it's in direct contrast with every single game including the game it's based upon, and what explanation that could exist, is never actually said or implied to be a thing. It's only a discrepancy that comes at the cost of a few pages of a manga in contrast to everything else.

While he fought Samus on equal footing in Varia or above in literally every single instance besides that. Some of which the Phazon excuse can't be applied to.
You're ignoring that every single instance of Ridley contending with Samus predates Phazon's conception so it's obviously not the actual reason why, and in the source material the single discrepancy never actually happens. That's a huge red flag. One that isn't just going to be handwaved here.

While I don't think it was intended, Phazon is a pretty good explanation.

Of course it wasn't intended, it wasn't even a thing, it wasn't even the same people who came up with it, retro created Phazon, literally nobody involved with every single base Ridley encounter had any idea Phazon was ever going to be a thing. It can be an explanation, but really all it is is a excuse to patch up an inconsistency, one that doesn't even exist if you don't opt to include that single manga scene. I'm sure you see the issue here. Like, I'm fine with this being supplementary if there was more to go on, like even just a statement saying Ridley got stronger, Phazon would coincide with that statement and help flesh it out, but by itself it's not really anything.

Headcanon here, but Prime Ridley is also shown differently from ZM Ridley, going from a blackish gray to dark purple + blue in MP3 to violet by the time of the rest of the 2-D games.

Ridley changes colors and appearance in literally every single game. Even his clones, the exact same clones at that, look different despite nothing happening to trigger such a change. The Ridley clone in Other M, the Clone in Fusion, same shit, looks completely different. Or how Ridley looks different even in the same games, in ZM's cutscenes but in gameplay, he looks different let alone the official green art, or the official art of Super and in game.
Ridley looking slightly different here and there is nothing beyond art style shifts and aesthetic. I could go on even, Ridley in Samus Returns but Super, completely different, even after Ridley sheds his last remaining cybernetics and becomes the exact same Ridley in Super.

It's obviously not something they thought about but Phazon blue being added only to be removed coincides with the color changes of Ridley. Also consistent with black Ridley only appearing pre-Prime, in ZM and the manga. Obviously not arguing this here, but thought it was interesting.

I mean it's interesting, but it's not an argument though you've said as much so I don't really have any qualms with it, and one I'm not even sure is true, Ridley's been shown as grey/purple and blue all pre-prime, he's also shown grey post prime, and red, and purple, and blue, etc.



I'm gonna be as blunt as possible here.
But I need an actual statement suggesting Ridley got stronger because I'm not taking a manga that, while has canonical merit, to supersede every single game base Ridley is featured in, including the game with the exact Ridley we're scaling and the game the manga is based upon.
I simply can't do that here, the games still take precedence over a single scene in a manga, no matter how good that manga is and if the manga is canon. And the Phazon reasoning I don't buy either, Phazon was created by a completely different studio long after the games established base Ridley to be able to contend with Varia (In fact, does Varia even increase AP? Durability sure, explicitly, but AP?) when they created the games where Ridley fought Samus, Ridley was fighting Samus not because of some powerup that'll be conceptualized way later that he wouldn't even have in his system any longer by the times of those games anyhow chronologically (Not to mention the two different clones that rolled up to Varia that wouldn't have Phazon) but simply because big dragon man is strong and a threat to Samus and rival.

I don't really wanna argue this much further, mostly because I have at least 3 other verses that take priority atm, but you're going to need to find another feat to scale Ridley to so we don't need to have this debate in the first place, because that blast is only 7-B, except halved because it's not nuclear so 7-C, at best, because the feat takes place where the Chozo and MB primarily live, which is protected from the harsh conditions of the planet, so the gravity might not even be a factor there, making it 8-C.
 
Last edited:
I mean if you look at the page, it's roughly the same size. That's not even mentioning we can see how the trees are completely overshadowed by the size of the plateau or the fact that inside that plateau is Tourian.

Which is an entire military base, I doubt it's only 30 or so meters.
I don't remember the context fully well, but other objects seen in the same panels clearly suggest a smaller size so at most the evidence is contrasting, and that's a much more direct source of scaling so it would take precedence anyway.
 
I will be out for a couple of days, so dont finish this without me or heads will start rolling.
 
No, what the manga does is spice up events and change things. That's what it does, it doesn't clarify Ridley couldn't damage Samus in ZM if that's what you're insinuating, the fights themselves aren't even remotely the same, they don't even take place in the same locale nor do the events leading up to it even remotely similar. It's less giving details to a fight in the games and more changing a fight and event entirely to fit a narrative in a manga-sense because it's a different medium and it'd fit better for the newly awoken Samus to roll the asshole dragon into dust. While in the game, that isn't a thing so they just fight normally like they do every other time. Now I'm not saying narrative invalidates feats or scaling, definitely not, otherwise every manga ever would be ******, but I am saying manga adaption ain't taking precedence over the game it's based on in a game verse.

I also want to point out, Ridley isn't even instantly stomped, I mean he's ****** up quite badly in the manga, but he tanks the wave beam with little if any damage, he tanks the ice beam too, it's only the final shot, the shot that immolates him and sets him ablaze and burns him continuously, that he falls. He straight up tanks two attacks from her and is only beaten by being burned alive (the actual explosion from the shot too didn't do him in). The issue at hand isn't even if he can tank her attack's, because he does twice, maybe three, the issue is if he can hurt her, being the main discrepancy (And given how much of a meme Ridley dragging Varia has become...).

No offense but in the actual game itself, and every game Ridley is featured in, he's tossing hands with Varia, not power, only in a single scene in a manga is that not the case, needless to say, while the manga definitely has merit, it sure as **** ain't taking precedence over literally every single interaction with Ridley in every single other piece of media ever besides the original NES game where Varia didn't even exist.

You might want to double-check your sources. Only Zero Mission actually has Varia Suit Samus fight Ridley with both of them without other circumstances (If you ignore ZM Samus doesn't have the Legendary Suit). The only other games that has Ridley fight Varia Suit Samus is MP3 and Other M, the former having a barebones Varia Suit Samus and Meta Ridley, while Other M temporarily retconned the Gravity Suit. Every other game is Gravity Suit Samus.

That's the thing, never stated or hinted at to get stronger. That's mere conjecture because he lost in the manga, which is what I hold issue with, because it's in direct contrast with every single game including the game it's based upon, and what explanation that could exist, is never actually said or implied to be a thing. It's only a discrepancy that comes at the cost of a few pages of a manga in contrast to everything else.

While he fought Samus on equal footing in Varia or above in literally every single instance besides that. Some of which the Phazon excuse can't be applied to.
You're ignoring that every single instance of Ridley contending with Samus predates Phazon's conception so it's obviously not the actual reason why, and in the source material the single discrepancy never actually happens. That's a huge red flag. One that isn't just going to be handwaved here.

I have to point out where you're forgetting Zero Mission Samus is canonically inferior to the Legendary Suit Samus.

Varia Suit Samus >= Ridley ZM

Legendary Gravity Suit Samus >= Ridley (Post-Prime)

Also need to clarify I'm talking about it from a timeline perspective, not the release of games btw

Of course it wasn't intended, it wasn't even a thing, it wasn't even the same people who came up with it, retro created Phazon, literally nobody involved with every single base Ridley encounter had any idea Phazon was ever going to be a thing. It can be an explanation, but really all it is is a excuse to patch up an inconsistency, one that doesn't even exist if you don't opt to include that single manga scene. I'm sure you see the issue here. Like, I'm fine with this being supplementary if there was more to go on, like even just a statement saying Ridley got stronger, Phazon would coincide with that statement and help flesh it out, but by itself it's not really anything.

Ridley changes colors and appearance in literally every single game. Even his clones, the exact same clones at that, look different despite nothing happening to trigger such a change. The Ridley clone in Other M, the Clone in Fusion, same shit, looks completely different. Or how Ridley looks different even in the same games, in ZM's cutscenes but in gameplay, he looks different let alone the official green art, or the official art of Super and in game.
Ridley looking slightly different here and there is nothing beyond art style shifts and aesthetic. I could go on even, Ridley in Samus Returns but Super, completely different, even after Ridley sheds his last remaining cybernetics and becomes the exact same Ridley in Super.

I mean it's interesting, but it's not an argument though you've said as much so I don't really have any qualms with it, and one I'm not even sure is true, Ridley's been shown as grey/purple and blue all pre-prime, he's also shown grey post-prime, and red, and purple, and blue, etc.


Since this isn't really relevant as we've said, I'm not really gonna say much other than I'm talking about colors by timeline, not game release, so like all ZM art is greyish/greenish for example.

I'm gonna be as blunt as possible here.
But I need an actual statement suggesting Ridley got stronger because I'm not taking a manga that, while has canonical merit, to supersede every single game base Ridley is featured in, including the game with the exact Ridley we're scaling and the game the manga is based upon.
I simply can't do that here, the games still take precedence over a single scene in a manga, no matter how good that manga is and if the manga is canon. And the Phazon reasoning I don't buy either, Phazon was created by a completely different studio long after the games established base Ridley to be able to contend with Varia (In fact, does Varia even increase AP? Durability sure, explicitly, but AP?) when they created the games where Ridley fought Samus, Ridley was fighting Samus not because of some powerup that'll be conceptualized way later that he wouldn't even have in his system any longer by the times of those games anyhow chronologically (Not to mention the two different clones that rolled up to Varia that wouldn't have Phazon) but simply because big dragon man is strong and a threat to Samus and rival.

I don't really wanna argue this much further, mostly because I have at least 3 other verses that take priority atm, but you're going to need to find another feat to scale Ridley to so we don't need to have this debate in the first place, because that blast is only 7-B, except halved because it's not nuclear so 7-C, at best, because the feat takes place where the Chozo and MB primarily live, which is protected from the harsh conditions of the planet, so the gravity might not even be a factor there, making it 8-C.

I mean, we know Samus got significantly stronger between her fight with Ridley in ZM and the end of ZM. I feel that alone confirms there had to be a power boost.

Although the most likely (albeit boring) conclusion is that Ridley just gets himself genetically amped. We already know that's a thing for Space Pirates in Metroid Prime
series (Including FF) and the manga, as well as how Zebesians came to be.
 
I don't remember the context fully well, but other objects seen in the same panels clearly suggest a smaller size so at most the evidence is contrasting, and that's a much more direct source of scaling so it would take precedence anyway.
Here's the chapter on Metroid Database if ya need it.

The only object actually working against the current calculation is the statue (Which I'm still saying is a matter of perspective, since it makes Ridley look disgustingly small). The fact that the trees are pretty clearly overshadowed or that the plateau encompasses Tourian seems to really go against that.
 
You might want to double-check your sources. Only Zero Mission actually has Varia Suit Samus fight Ridley with both of them without other circumstances (If you ignore ZM Samus doesn't have the Legendary Suit). The only other games that has Ridley fight Varia Suit Samus is MP3 and Other M, the former having a barebones Varia Suit Samus and Meta Ridley, while Other M temporarily retconned the Gravity Suit. Every other game is Gravity Suit Samus.
ZM Samus, in game, fights him with Varia. Not the Legendary Varia, but still the Varia, not the basic power suit like you're claiming, and Ridley could harm her just fine in that.
So yes, of course I fact checked my sources, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I didn't check the game first.
And lad, you're basically just arguing Ridley is more Gravity suit then Varia at that point, which honestly I wouldn't mind. I don't care where he ends up as long as it's the most consistent showing from him. But that showing ain't basic Power Suit and every explanation you've given is conjecture at best, which is an issue, if every explanation is simply guesswork, chances are they aren't the actual reason why.

I have to point out where you're forgetting Zero Mission Samus is canonically inferior to the Legendary Suit Samus.

Weapons the same regardless, is that not quite literally why we accept all the S&J feats as scalable as they're the same weapon no matter what?
Seems a bit hypocritical to suddenly act like the Ice Beam is magnitudes weaker here because Power Suit is shooting it and not Gravity or whatever, when we've argued the weapons are 100% identical in the feat and when Samus has it in the likes of S&J. The argument has a l w a y s been they're the same weapon so they scale, why would it be different here?

Varia Suit Samus >= Ridley ZM

Again, there is no "ZM Ridley", it's the same dude in multiple games. Your ZM Ridley mostly just exists to explain why he couldn't hurt Samus in the manga.

Legendary Gravity Suit Samus >= Ridley (Post-Prime)

This is true, but that doesn't effect if Ridley = Ridley. Legendary Gravity is above basically every Ridley, no exception. Well, maybe not Prime 3 Ridley but regardless.

Also need to clarify I'm talking about it from a timeline perspective, not the release of games btw

Sure, but you're taking something that was never the actual reason and trying to use that as a justification in the discrepancy when we know damn well Phazon isn't why he's "stronger" in say, Super compared to ZM, because he never was stronger, he was the same. Phazon didn't even come into play for Ridley to like 2006 at that, and Phazon itself wasn't a thing till after Fusion. And yes, I say after Fusion, due to the development cycle of the games in question, the lore and narrative of the two games had zero effect on each other at that point. And again, clones beg to differ.

Since this isn't really relevant as we've said, I'm not really gonna say much other than I'm talking about colors by timeline, not game release, so like all ZM art is greyish/greenish for example.

In ZM alone he's grey, kinda purple/blue and a vibrant green with dark purple wings. From a chronological standpoint alone, Ridley's colors have been shown completely ******, in no world is all the ZM instances the same color, grass green and dark grey couldn't be father apart.

I mean, we know Samus got significantly stronger between her fight with Ridley in ZM and the end of ZM. I feel that alone confirms there had to be a power boost.

Did she even though? Like actually, when was it ever stated Samus got stronger, she gets better weapons, upgrades and the like, but nothing about a power boost. Even Legendary Varia, where are you getting that it grants her a huge power boost? All it did was allow her to integrate more Choco tech, and buff durability, plus it looks different.
Actually, when has Varia EVER increased power? All it's ever done in every game is grant resistance and increase durability, but not power, and none of the flavor text in the games state that too.

Although the most likely (albeit boring) conclusion is that Ridley just gets himself genetically amped. We already know that's a thing for Space Pirates in Metroid Prime series (Including FF) and the manga, as well as how Zebesians came to be.

It isn't likely, at all really, it's again just conjecture. Not stated, not implied, at least not for Ridley. If every single one of your counterpoints is simply guessing then we have a issue. And if that was the case, you'd be almost certain they'd mention it somewhere. And even then, how does that explain the Fed Clones of him, I doubt they engineered him, especially given in case we see him grow up entirely giving them no real time for enhancements.

But now that I'm thinking on it, when was it ever stated that the Legendary Varia and the like increased Samus' weapons and power? Except actually, I just went through a dozen different scans looking for implication they got a boosted power, and notta. To further that, in S&J, something we most certainly use, we work under the assumption the weapons themselves hold the respective power.

So.
1. Ridley has never been stated to get stronger.
2. The only real discrepancy is his showing in the ZM manga, where he still tanks two attacks directly, that being the High 6-A Ice beam and wave beam.
3. We've long since accepted that the weapons Samus has are literally that, which is why we accept shit like the S&J feats because theyre her weapons, if we were to argue they vary depending on circumstances, wielders, power sources, and the like unless stated, we'd have to make every S&J feat a possibly at best due to possible variance.
4. Ridley in base has consistently been shown to be Varia or above, not basic power suit.
5. I can't find a single statement stating Samus' attack output increases with the suit, only her defenses, which kinda straight up aligns with S&J as well, her missiles weren't played off as weaker in her power suit then in her Legendary Varia, nor her Ice Beam, nor screw attack, nor speed booster, etc, kinda playing in line with the above point.
6. The manga fight itself has major discrepancies with the source material.
7. Clones.

I'm gonna need see to a direct statement for Samus' attack output increasing with Varia/Gravity now if that's the argument you want to go with and that the output of her weapons depends on the suit at hand before we even begin to continue this conversation.
And if the output of the basic weaponry varies despite what's shown in other material, we're gonna need to call the S&J feats into question. Actually I'd argue even how Fusion works suggests weapons are kinda static given she just downloads weapons' data and even uses fed tech.

The only object actually working against the current calculation is the statue (Which I'm still saying is a matter of perspective, since it makes Ridley look disgustingly small). The fact that the trees are pretty clearly overshadowed or that the plateau encompasses Tourian seems to really go against that.

I could straight up get a similar size from multiple panels.
In fact.


Two more shots, in fact it's even smaller in these shots. It's not this large mountain you're implying it is Data, it's barely 25m at best. Could be as low as 15+.
High 7-C+ is the highest this feat is gonna get even with gravity, and I'm cautious on gravity even being a factor due to where the feat takes place. Which would drop it to 8-C.
And those weren't even the only panels, it's actually shown small in every panel it's in, I could grab a handful more.
 
Last edited:
ZM Samus, in game, fights him with Varia. Not the Legendary Varia, but still the Varia, not the basic power suit like you're claiming, and Ridley could harm her just fine in that.
So yes, of course I fact checked my sources, I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I didn't check the game first.
And lad, you're basically just arguing Ridley is more Gravity suit then Varia at that point, which honestly I wouldn't mind. I don't care where he ends up as long as it's the most consistent showing from him. But that showing ain't basic Power Suit and every explanation you've given is conjecture at best, which is an issue, if every explanation is simply guesswork, chances are they aren't the actual reason why.

Mind quoting me on where I said she fought Ridley in only her Power Suit? I was confused earlier since you kept bringing it up, but it seems you're really adamant in me saying that.

My point here is that post-ZM, Ridley consistently fights Gravity Suit Samus. Pre-ZM, both the manga and ZM have him consistently fight Varia (Pre-Legendary). Hence why they're treated differently here.

Weapons the same regardless, is that not quite literally why we accept all the S&J feats as scalable as they're the same weapon no matter what?
Seems a bit hypocritical to suddenly act like the Ice Beam is magnitudes weaker here because Power Suit is shooting it and not Gravity or whatever, when we've argued the weapons are 100% identical in the feat and when Samus has it in the likes of S&J. The argument has a l w a y s been they're the same weapon so they scale, why would it be different here?



Again, there is no "ZM Ridley", it's the same dude in multiple games. Your ZM Ridley mostly just exists to explain why he couldn't hurt Samus in the manga.



This is true, but that doesn't effect if Ridley = Ridley. Legendary Gravity is above basically every Ridley, no exception. Well, maybe not Prime 3 Ridley but regardless.

You should probably read my argument on the S & J feat before you claim I'm being hypocritical. I'm scaling the Ice Beam because she tanked it and we know that if the antagonist did get any amp, it came after the feat. Finally, we also know the suit(s) upscales Samus' abilities / stats so it's not exactly the same. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different tiers for Samus in the first place.

I'm clarifying ZM Ridley because clearly there is a power difference between Ridley in Zero Mission and Ridley after the Prime Trilogy.

Did she even though? Like actually, when was it ever stated Samus got stronger, she gets better weapons, upgrades and the like, but nothing about a power boost. Even Legendary Varia, where are you getting that it grants her a huge power boost? All it did was allow her to integrate more Choco tech, and buff durability, plus it looks different.
Actually, when has Varia EVER increased power? All it's ever done in every game is grant resistance and increase durability, but not power, and none of the flavor text in the games state that too.

"Samus's standard Power Suit, built for her by the Chozo people, is made even stronger by the Varia Suit upgrade. It provides shielding in battle and augmented physical strength, and its life-support systems allow her to survive in water and even space without additional equipment." - Metroid Prime Manual

"Samus's main weapon is the Power Suit, a sleek and impressive piece of armor that gives her incredible powers of agility, speed and strength. The suit lets her jump great distances, breathe underwater, function in the depths of space and survive falls from any height. Like the visor, the Power Suit will be upgraded throughout the game." - Nintendo Power

The Varia Suit literally altering Samus' physiology according to Prime. And the bulky parts being power generators according to Super Metroid.

It isn't likely, at all really, it's again just conjecture. Not stated, not implied, at least not for Ridley. If every single one of your counterpoints is simply guessing then we have a issue. And if that was the case, you'd be almost certain they'd mention it somewhere. And even then, how does that explain the Fed Clones of him, I doubt they engineered him, especially given in case we see him grow up entirely giving them no real time for enhancements.

But now that I'm thinking on it, when was it ever stated that the Legendary Varia and the like increased Samus' weapons and power? Except actually, I just went through a dozen different scans looking for implication they got a boosted power, and notta. To further that, in S&J, something we most certainly use, we work under the assumption the weapons themselves hold the respective power.

It honestly sounds like you're ignoring power scaling as a concept entirely. It's literally Gravity Suit Samus > Ridley (Post-Prime) > Legendary Varia Suit Samus > Legendary Power Suit Samus > Varia Suit Samus > Ridley (ZM).

Also using Other M? Even if we ignore how many plot issues there are there- it should be acknowledged that according to its own story, Ridley fought (and still lost) to a significantly weakened Samus, as her willpower which powers the suit was significantly reduced.

As for the second part, answered it above^.

So.
1. Ridley has never been stated to get stronger.
2. The only real discrepancy is his showing in the ZM manga, where he still tanks two attacks directly, that being the High 6-A Ice beam and wave beam.
3. We've long since accepted that the weapons Samus has are literally that, which is why we accept shit like the S&J feats because theyre her weapons, if we were to argue they vary depending on circumstances, wielders, power sources, and the like unless stated, we'd have to make every S&J feat a possibly at best due to possible variance.
4. Ridley in base has consistently been shown to be Varia or above, not basic power suit.
5. I can't find a single statement stating Samus' attack output increases with the suit, only her defenses, which kinda straight up aligns with S&J as well, her missiles weren't played off as weaker in her power suit then in her Legendary Varia, nor her Ice Beam, nor screw attack, nor speed booster, etc, kinda playing in line with the above point.
6. The manga fight itself has major discrepancies with the source material.
7. Clones.

1. Power scaling is a thing.
2. ZM and Zero Mission itself.
3. No, we haven't. You're the one who brought it up but if you check my arguments I didn't rely on that. Hell, our pages literally entirely contradict any acceptance of this.
4. Quote me on the power suit part. Also, that consistency is why Ridley is divided.
5. "Samus's standard Power Suit, built for her by the Chozo people, is made even stronger by the Varia Suit upgrade. It provides shielding in battle and augmented physical strength, and its life-support systems allow her to survive in water and even space without additional equipment."
6. The only real discrepancy is the location of the fight.
7. Other M.

I'm gonna need see to a direct statement for Samus' attack output increasing with Varia/Gravity now if that's the argument you want to go with and that the output of her weapons depends on the suit at hand before we even begin to continue this conversation.
And if the output of the basic weaponry varies despite what's shown in other material, we're gonna need to call the S&J feats into question. Actually I'd argue even how Fusion works suggests weapons are kinda static given she just downloads weapons' data and even uses fed tech.

Statement above^. We already know Samus' data downloads in Fusions are upscaled by the suit tho? Stuff like the Plasma Beam for example works very different in Fed hands rather than GF hands. Stuff like the Bombs work completely different too.

I could straight up get a similar size from multiple panels.
In fact.


Two more shots, in fact it's even smaller in these shots. It's not this large mountain you're implying it is Data, it's barely 25m at best. Could be as low as 15+.
High 7-C+ is the highest this feat is gonna get even with gravity, and I'm cautious on gravity even being a factor due to where the feat takes place. Which would drop it to 8-C.
And those weren't even the only panels, it's actually shown small in every panel it's in, I could grab a handful more.


Weird size for Tourian to be. But alright, if we have to downgrade Ridley to 7-C (Via Zero Suit) for now, I'm not completely complaining. There probably has to be a feat that they can scale to.
 
Last edited:
Mind quoting me on where I said she fought Ridley in only her Power Suit? I was confused earlier since you kept bringing it up, but it seems you're really adamant in me saying that.

"Island level (Fought against Ridley at his weakest, who can destroy a mountain, in her original Power Suit. Destroyed Arachnus-X, and the original, weaker Arachnus can fight against her in the Power Suit, with the Fusion Suit)"

We accept Samus and Ridley power suit being comparable, and I know well enough that the pages in question are mostly your work and given you're arguing Ridley in ZM is somehow completely infallibly below Samus of any kind bar Power Suit, well, you didn't directly say it in this thread, but it's being inferred. As at the end of the day that's what's being scaled, and if not, well, then I guess the profile is wrong and that needs changing.

My point here is that post-ZM, Ridley consistently fights Gravity Suit Samus. Pre-ZM, both the manga and ZM have him consistently fight Varia (Pre-Legendary). Hence why they're treated differently here.

And that's the issue, there is no difference. That's my whole point and every single reason you can think of, isn't an actual reason and is simply conjecture.
Let alone the fact I'm arguing that AP wise they're barely different if at all, at least, the weapons that make up the arsenal anyway.
You should probably read my argument on the S & J feat before you claim I'm being hypocritical. I'm scaling the Ice Beam because she tanked it and we know that if the antagonist did get any amp, it came after the feat. Finally, we also know the suit(s) upscales Samus' abilities / stats so it's not exactly the same. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different tiers for Samus in the first place.

I'm clarifying ZM Ridley because clearly there is a power difference between Ridley in Zero Mission and Ridley after the Prime Trilogy.
You should probably read my argument on the S & J feat before you claim I'm being hypocritical.

I never claimed you were hypocritical, I'm talking in a general sense because that's exactly what we're gonna need to do.

I'm scaling the Ice Beam because she tanked it and we know that if the antagonist did get any amp, it came after the feat. Finally, we also know the suit(s) upscales Samus' abilities / stats so it's not exactly the same. Otherwise, we wouldn't have different tiers for Samus in the first place.

That ain't gonna work mate, Samus took the Ice Beam, sure ok.
But AP wise, how do we know it scales to her own AP/Ice Beam? Because he didn't get an amp? Sure, he didn't amp it at all, but if you're no shit arguing that different suits, users and the like directly heavily influence the power of the weapon by literal magnitudes, it's still going to be called into question regardless of if he was amped or not because we don't know the base output of however he used in that situation and how it compared to Samus normally.
And that goes for the S&J power bomb feat too, they can bust planets? Well sure, maybe the Greed corp dude could, but why would that mean Samus can with them? We don't know what power source he used there to power the creation of the bombs, we don't know how it would compare to Samus, ergo, that feat needs scrutiny too know, and so on.
Actually, hey, wasn't Samus in Power when that dude had the planet buster and Samus got it back? Does Power Suit have those 5-B bombs now, or are they weaker because of the suit? I'm seeing a huge amount of red flags here Data.

No we don't, I just told you I looked through a dozen, and now close to two dozen statements, I found nothing on them boosting her power output and weaponry output. The closest I could find is in Fusion, ADAM rates Samus' fighting potential in percentage, but that's explicitly in regards to how many weapons' and abilities she has, not power output. Something as mundane as gaining missiles slaps 5% onto that, and so on all without any suit change.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have different tiers for Samus in the first place.

And I'm contesting it clearly, just because we do it doesn't mean it's right. If we do it and there's no real reason for it or any statement in canon, well, then we stop doing it, simple as that, we'd simply make keys for when she has different abilities and quirks, durability, like Prime 2 and so on or in the cases where her AP actually is different by magnitudes. This is a literal nonargument and an appeal to tradition. Need a direct statement or I'm taking this to mean she doesn't and we've bene making this far more complex based on headcanon alone.

"Samus's standard Power Suit, built for her by the Chozo people, is made even stronger by the Varia Suit upgrade. It provides shielding in battle and augmented physical strength, and its life-support systems allow her to survive in water and even space without additional equipment." - Metroid Prime Manual

Yes, these are indeed true. Though the first line when it says "is made even stronger", that's most certainly talking about durability. The latter is blatantly talking about defenses. And physical strength, yes that's also true. None of this states it powers up the actual weapons though, it's mostly talking about durability, which we know it does, as it's stated every time, and physical strength, and that part might not even be in reference to how it stacks to Power but just in general.

"Samus's main weapon is the Power Suit, a sleek and impressive piece of armor that gives her incredible powers of agility, speed and strength. The suit lets her jump great distances, breathe underwater, function in the depths of space and survive falls from any height. Like the visor, the Power Suit will be upgraded throughout the game." - Nintendo Power

This says actually **** all. Where does it say it increases her weapon output or power? It simply says it has enhanced agility, speed and strength, which we, of course, now it does. But again, nothing about actual weapon amping and enhancements, it's unironically just describing "hey this suit amps Samus physically in all attributes".


Dead links, but again, nothing on power/weapon/damage output, just more physical augmentation arguments which we all know to be true. And the bulky pats being power generators is hilariously vague, and like, pretty sure isn't even the case anymore.

It honestly sounds like you're ignoring power scaling as a concept entirely. It's literally Gravity Suit Samus > Ridley (Post-Prime) > Legendary Varia Suit Samus > Legendary Power Suit Samus > Varia Suit Samus > Ridley (ZM).

I'm ignoring power scaling when the power scaling in question only exists because of what basically amounts to headcanon. Like that scaling chain alone. Gravity suit is never stated to be a power amp. Ridley post prime is never stated above **** all actually. Legendary Varia Samus has far greater durability but power wise, nothing, unless you count physical strength which is par the course, given your statements above are entirely physique based except a vague statement regarding power generators. And repeat for the following.

Also using Other M? Even if we ignore how many plot issues there are there- it should be acknowledged that according to its own story, Ridley fought (and still lost) to a significantly weakened Samus, as her willpower which powers the suit was significantly reduced.

Yeah, but you kinda skipped the part where she got her shit together for the fight itself. And still managed to put up a fight, not to mention earlier sequences in the game with Birdy and the creature (Hell the creature grapples her even and does a damn good job). And yes, I'll use Other M if for no reason other Fusion also exists and coincides with it, unless you actually want to argue the X amped Ridley's corpse by orders of magnitudes for some reason, despite the X actively trying to mimic a host perfectly and does in 995 of other cases.

As for the second part, answered it above^.

Disagree.

Power scaling is a thing.
Almost entirely conjecture at this point.

ZM and Zero Mission itself.

Manga that barely adheres to the game when they actually get to that part in the story and Ridley does way better in the game compared to the manga. Even then, you completely ignored the fact he tanked two attacks pointblank from it (Despite being unable to damage it) in the manga, which kinda if anything, suggests that the AP wasn't scaled accordingly otherwise he wouldn't of tanked anything if the AP correlated to the durability.

No, we haven't. You're the one who brought it up but if you check my arguments I didn't rely on that. Hell, our pages literally entirely contradict any "acceptance" of this.

No, the pages are just inconsistent regarding several stances on feats and I'm not asking for your stance on the matter, I'm saying in general, because we're gonna need to exactly when it comes to AP scaling regardless of your tanking arguments.

Quote me on the power suit part. Also, that consistency is why Ridley is divided.

You mean when Ridley is consistently shown to be Varia or above? Because that's the 4 point there. Are you just aksing for the times in question? Because yeah I'll go grab em if ya want.

"Samus's standard Power Suit, built for her by the Chozo people, is made even stronger by the Varia Suit upgrade. It provides shielding in battle and augmented physical strength, and its life-support systems allow her to survive in water and even space without additional equipment."

See above. Physical strength and weaponry boosting, and it's almost entirely talking about durability when it says "made stronger", as in it's now tougher, or whatever the ****.

The only real discrepancy is the location of the fight.
That among like a dozen other things, it's not even close to how it went down in game, hell, none of it is really.


Are you trying to say Other M somehow discredits it? Because Other M supports my point alongside Fusion, both have Ridley's that roll up to Samus and do just fine without any amping of the sort. Another thing of note is that Varia in Other M is very blatantly portrayed as just a durability/heat/cold thing, not power.

Statement above^. We already know Samus' data downloads in Fusions are upscaled by the suit tho? Stuff like the Plasma Beam for example works very different in Fed hands rather than GF hands. Stuff like the Bombs work completely different too.

Your statements mean little if anything, hell, one doesn't even mean what you're playing it off as. I'd actually argue against that, the Plasma Beam and the like worked differently years prior when they tried to mimic it based on guesswork. By the time of Fusion, who the hell knows how far they got, especially given they were ******* with her suit a bit leading up to it. Same with bombs. Though the real answer is the Fed's sucking came quite some time after Fusion and at the time it was just lol uploads. But for one arguing based on a whole lot of guesswork, this one here is actually pretty easily explained away in the game itself.

Weird size for Tourian to be. But alright, 8-C ridley is fine for you I assume.

Not Tourian as a whole, just the tiny open area they walked out into. But yeah sure, 8-C is what he's gonna be if there isn't any other alternative. Hell I thought scaling him to the Ice Beam would of worked given he tanked that but I guess not.


Still gonna need an actual statement though stating Varia and above empowers weaponry and not just durability (Which it does, stated in every game and does so, usually by a demonstrable amount) because all you've got is the bulky ass suit makes her physically stronger and more durable and not anything regarding the weapons that if anything should be static given how they're portrayed in S&J, which fyi, you completely glossed over that point, in fact, I'm outright positive Samus states or heavily implies the Greed corps using her Speed Booster, Missiles and screw Attack were are all the same as when she had them, suggesting static power (Not to mention, there isn't a single game where Varia or Gravity actually makes anything you do hurt more, you'd think at least one game would have that if it was a thing) and if so we're gonna need to rehaul a few of the other feats given that makes 1:1 scaling extremely suspect at that point if it does indeed change the weapon potency. You're also gonna need one for Gravity too if you wanna keep stating it's > Legendary Varia in power and not just like, durability and the actual point of the suit (that being innate res/immunity to harsh condition).
 
Anyway, I'll solve this stupid shit myself.

Just scale Ridley to 6-B.

Platinum's cannon could damage the Zebes shields MB uses, so 6-B AP.
Platinum tanked his own blast pointblank contained upon his own body when he got trapped and broke out of MB's steel cage, so he has 6-B dura.
Ridley could skewer and blow him to hell, so he has 6-B AP.

There, easy.
 
Yeah no I still agree with chariot on the "mountain" feat, being "connected" to a mountain range means literally nothing on its own and whatever you could try to get from it is immediately negated by the fact that multiple shots show the area to be smaller
 
It's not even the mountain, it's a tiny open area on a much larger area that is like 99.99% cut off.
It's like no shit the equivalent of going onto a balcony in an apartment building. Like yeah sure, the building is kinda big, but the tiny ass balcony ain't the whole building.
And when every single shot has that open space between 20m~, and that ain't hyperbole, every panel we see it, it's consistently the same, we even get multiple direct overhead shots showing the width even.

I mean I like 6-C Riddles as much as the next person but, that feat ain't it. I'd sooner take 8-C Ridley then use a blatantly wrong and disingenuous feat, and I'm the person arguing for an upgrade for his ass, honestly I'd rather a extreme downgrade over it being simply wrong, accuracy is the most important thing after all.
 
The Arachnus part was done in the High 6-A key actually, why is that even in the current 6-C key. Also the manga still gives more context to the original Metroid kind of takes place before Zero Mission early on. I also do remember there being a statement of Ridley being able to damage Mother Brain's barrier, but I recall SD mention that it turns out that was a much older and weaker model of that barrier.
 
Also the manga still gives more context to the original Metroid kind of takes place before Zero Mission early on. I also do remember there being a statement of Ridley being able to damage Mother Brain's barrier,

Context yes, but only really for the backstory and characters. Some of it is straight up different though. In fact, the whole Fed Vs. Pirates thing while Samus goes in is directly contradicted by the game itself, which is odd because that's a kinda huge part of the plot of the game. The manga takes a lot of liberties come time for the game part.
Don't recall that, but Platinum did damage it and began to wear it down, and Platinum can take his own attacks blatantly, and Ridley killed him.
but I recall SD mention that it turns out that was a much older and weaker model of that barrier.

My dude, half the shit regarding this "barrier" doesn't even exist, and most certainly nothing about models, a whole slew of shit on the profile is made up even. Like, when the **** ever does it state the shields can take the counter busters from S&J for example? It don't, ever. The only reason I'm not contesting it is because the shields d i d take a micro black hole that was calced around that same tier and if I contest tiny shit like that I may as well contest all of it and that'd require a retread of the whole verse, which I wouldn't mind do eventually, but not ight now.
 
"Island level (Fought against Ridley at his weakest, who can destroy a mountain, in her original Power Suit. Destroyed Arachnus-X, and the original, weaker Arachnus can fight against her in the Power Suit, with the Fusion Suit)"

We accept Samus and Ridley power suit being comparable, and I know well enough that the pages in question are mostly your work and given you're arguing Ridley in ZM is somehow completely infallibly below Samus of any kind bar Power Suit, well, you didn't directly say it in this thread, but it's being inferred. As at the end of the day that's what's being scaled, and if not, well, then I guess the profile is wrong and that needs changing.
Okay, I see where you're coming from here. But there's a pretty big difference between fighting Ridley and scaling off it against defeating Ridley with the Power Suit.

The idea behind the scaling is just Power Suit Samus fought Ridley, hence the same tier. Varia Suit Samus being baseline 6-B, beat Ridley in ZM and the manga, and having his Plasma Breath calced at 6-C just meant he remained at 6-C. It wasn't supposed to signify Power Suit Samus > Ridley.

And that's the issue, there is no difference. That's my whole point and every single reason you can think of, isn't an actual reason and is simply conjecture.
Let alone the fact I'm arguing that AP wise they're barely different if at all, at least, the weapons that make up the arsenal anyway.

Like I told you before, in ZM Ridley lost to Varia Suit Samus. After ZM, Ridley consistently fought against a Full-Powered / Nearly Full-Powered Legendary Gravity Suit Samus. There is a very clear gap in tiering there.

That ain't gonna work mate, Samus took the Ice Beam, sure ok.
But AP wise, how do we know it scales to her own AP/Ice Beam? Because he didn't get an amp? Sure, he didn't amp it at all, but if you're no shit arguing that different suits, users and the like directly heavily influence the power of the weapon by literal magnitudes, it's still going to be called into question regardless of if he was amped or not because we don't know the base output of however he used in that situation and how it compared to Samus normally.
And that goes for the S&J power bomb feat too, they can bust planets? Well sure, maybe the Greed corp dude could, but why would that mean Samus can with them? We don't know what power source he used there to power the creation of the bombs, we don't know how it would compare to Samus, ergo, that feat needs scrutiny too know, and so on.
Actually, hey, wasn't Samus in Power when that dude had the planet buster and Samus got it back? Does Power Suit have those 5-B bombs now, or are they weaker because of the suit? I'm seeing a huge amount of red flags here Data.

...Because she can damage people who can damage her? Power scaling, again, seems to be thrown completely out the window.

I also don't think you recognize that Samus' version of her equipment is canonically considered superior to whatever versions the rest of the universe has. For example, the GF has access to the Ice Beam and Plasma Beam, but both versions are completely lacking in comparison unless Samus absorbs them. They are very explicit that their feats is mostly because they're using Samus' equipment, including the Ice Beam antagonist.

And that's not even bringing up that the Greed Corps can't use her upgrades to their full potential. For example, in the Missile chapter, the guy's Super Missiles were inferior enough that Power Suit Samus could capture them. Similarly the Screw Attack didn't even have the energy projection/ invulnerability Samus usually has.

No we don't, I just told you I looked through a dozen, and now close to two dozen statements, I found nothing on them boosting her power output and weaponry output. The closest I could find is in Fusion, ADAM rates Samus' fighting potential in percentage, but that's explicitly in regards to how many weapons' and abilities she has, not power output. Something as mundane as gaining missiles slaps 5% onto that, and so on all without any suit change.

And I'm contesting it clearly, just because we do it doesn't mean it's right. If we do it and there's no real reason for it or any statement in canon, well, then we stop doing it, simple as that, we'd simply make keys for when she has different abilities and quirks, durability, like Prime 2 and so on or in the cases where her AP actually is different by magnitudes. This is a literal nonargument and an appeal to tradition. Need a direct statement or I'm taking this to mean she doesn't and we've bene making this far more complex based on headcanon alone.

So the jump for tier 5 to 4 in Prime 2 makes sense for you, but tier 6 to 5 between the earlier suits doesn't? It's literally the same case.

Yes, these are indeed true. Though the first line when it says "is made even stronger", that's most certainly talking about durability. The latter is blatantly talking about defenses. And physical strength, yes that's also true. None of this states it powers up the actual weapons though, it's mostly talking about durability, which we know it does, as it's stated every time, and physical strength, and that part might not even be in reference to how it stacks to Power but just in general.

This says actually **** all. Where does it say it increases her weapon output or power? It simply says it has enhanced agility, speed and strength, which we, of course, now it does. But again, nothing about actual weapon amping and enhancements, it's unironically just describing "hey this suit amps Samus physically in all attributes".

Dead links, but again, nothing on power/weapon/damage output, just more physical augmentation arguments which we all know to be true. And the bulky pats being power generators is hilariously vague, and like, pretty sure isn't even the case anymore.

The part about the suit being even stronger meaning durability is just an assumption. It also says the same thing in Echoes, which notably doesn't increase durability (Since you don't actually use the basic Power Suit) / you're supposed to use the Power Beam a lot in that game too, yet we know she goes from tier 5 to 4. You're right about the second part, I just brought it so the full statement was there.

Yes? If it increases her in all attributes then obviously her AP would be included? I don't understand how that's an argument.

So you're alright with her physical strength being amped, but not her beam strength? The bulky pats, as far as I'm aware, haven't been retconned from being power generators.

I'm ignoring power scaling when the power scaling in question only exists because of what basically amounts to headcanon. Like that scaling chain alone. Gravity suit is never stated to be a power amp. Ridley post prime is never stated above **** all actually. Legendary Varia Samus has far greater durability but power wise, nothing, unless you count physical strength which is par the course, given your statements above are entirely physique based except a vague statement regarding power generators. And repeat for the following.

How is the power scaling headcanon? It's like, the most straightforward thing here. Gravity Suit > Ridley (Post-Prime) > Legendary Varia Suit >Legendary Power Suit > Varia Suit > Ridley (ZM) > Power Suit is quite literally just based on when we fight Ridley in the games with what gear. Which part of this is headcanon, specially?

Yeah, but you kinda skipped the part where she got her shit together for the fight itself. And still managed to put up a fight, not to mention earlier sequences in the game with Birdy and the creature (Hell the creature grapples her even and does a damn good job). And yes, I'll use Other M if for no reason other Fusion also exists and coincides with it, unless you actually want to argue the X amped Ridley's corpse by orders of magnitudes for some reason, despite the X actively trying to mimic a host perfectly and does in 995 of other cases.

This is probably an entire argument on its own, considering that as far as I'm aware the X do amp them at times. Specifically, Neo-Ridley transformed from a mimic of Super Metroid Ridley before becoming Neo Ridley. SA-X has a secondary transformation, most of the SR-388 clones are evolutions of their non-X forms, like the Hornoad for example.

Hell by late game, they made regular Space Pirates into a copy of the Gold Pirates (somehow) from Super Metroid. That's quite literally a jump from tier 7 to 5.

Manga that barely adheres to the game when they actually get to that part in the story and Ridley does way better in the game compared to the manga. Even then, you completely ignored the fact he tanked two attacks pointblank from it (Despite being unable to damage it) in the manga, which kinda if anything, suggests that the AP wasn't scaled accordingly otherwise he wouldn't of tanked anything if the AP correlated to the durability.

A 6-C being should be able to survive 3 or so shots from a baseline 6-B character.

No, the pages are just inconsistent regarding several stances on feats and I'm not asking for your stance on the matter, I'm saying in general, because we're gonna need to exactly when it comes to AP scaling regardless of your tanking arguments.

I'm not sure what to tell you other than you're the only one who, as far as I know, though we treated all the upgrades as static in power. The pages never reflected your interpretation, hell, the pages literally don't even believe the same upgrade is static in between games (For example, we separate the Tallon Ice Beam from the Zebesian kind).

You mean when Ridley is consistently shown to be Varia or above? Because that's the 4 point there. Are you just aksing for the times in question? Because yeah I'll go grab em if ya want.

I'm asking for consistently above Varia before Prime in the timeline.

See above. Physical strength and weaponry boosting, and it's almost entirely talking about durability when it says "made stronger", as in it's now tougher, or whatever the ****.

See above, conjecture.

Are you trying to say Other M somehow discredits it? Because Other M supports my point alongside Fusion, both have Ridley's that roll up to Samus and do just fine without any amping of the sort. Another thing of note is that Varia in Other M is very blatantly portrayed as just a durability/heat/cold thing, not power.

No, I just responded to you only saying clones by only saying Other M.

Your statements mean little if anything, hell, one doesn't even mean what you're playing it off as. I'd actually argue against that, the Plasma Beam and the like worked differently years prior when they tried to mimic it based on guesswork. By the time of Fusion, who the hell knows how far they got, especially given they were ******* with her suit a bit leading up to it. Same with bombs. Though the real answer is the Fed's sucking came quite some time after Fusion and at the time it was just lol uploads. But for one arguing based on a whole lot of guesswork, this one here is actually pretty easily explained away in the game itself.

The Plasma Beam was quite literally inferior right before Fusion in Other M. Hell, the entire reason the Feds tried to trap Samus & SA-X in the last part of Fusion is because their tech is still inferior. But even if we didn't know this, the idea that the Federation is anywhere close to Samus when even the Pirates hadn't figured out the Morph Ball with the help of Mother Brain is absurd.

Not Tourian as a whole, just the tiny open area they walked out into. But yeah sure, 8-C is what he's gonna be if there isn't any other alternative. Hell I thought scaling him to the Ice Beam would of worked given he tanked that but I guess not.

They walked out of Mother Brain's room, that's pretty deep in Tourian.

Still gonna need an actual statement though stating Varia and above empowers weaponry and not just durability (Which it does, stated in every game and does so, usually by a demonstrable amount) because all you've got is the bulky ass suit makes her physically stronger and more durable and not anything regarding the weapons that if anything should be static given how they're portrayed in S&J, which fyi, you completely glossed over that point, in fact, I'm outright positive Samus states or heavily implies the Greed corps using her Speed Booster, Missiles and screw Attack were are all the same as when she had them, suggesting static power (Not to mention, there isn't a single game where Varia or Gravity actually makes anything you do hurt more, you'd think at least one game would have that if it was a thing) and if so we're gonna need to rehaul a few of the other feats given that makes 1:1 scaling extremely suspect at that point if it does indeed change the weapon potency. You're also gonna need one for Gravity too if you wanna keep stating it's > Legendary Varia in power and not just like, durability and the actual point of the suit (that being innate res/immunity to harsh condition).

Copying from above (Since it covers most of this):

The part about the suit being even stronger meaning durability is just an assumption. It also says the same thing in Echoes, which notably doesn't increase durability (Since you don't actually use the basic Power Suit) / you're supposed to use the Power Beam a lot in that game too, yet we know she goes from tier 5 to 4.

Yes? If it increases her in all attributes then obviously her AP would be included? But you're alright with her physical strength being amped, but not her beam strength? I don't understand how that's an argument.

I also don't think you recognize that Samus' version of her equipment is canonically considered superior to whatever versions the rest of the universe has. For example, the GF has access to the Ice Beam and Plasma Beam, but both versions are completely lacking in comparison unless Samus absorbs them. They are very explicit that their feats is mostly because they're using Samus' equipment, including the Ice Beam antagonist and the Plasma Beam holder. And that's not even bringing up that the Greed Corps can't use her upgrades to their full potential. For example, in the Missile chapter, the guy's Super Missiles were inferior enough that Power Suit Samus could capture them. Similarly the Screw Attack didn't even have the energy projection/ invulnerability Samus usually has.
 
Okay, I see where you're coming from here. But there's a pretty big difference between fighting Ridley and scaling off it against defeating Ridley with the Power Suit.

Not at all, if there's a big difference why do we do it? How do we quantify it? If you're to believed, our whole scaling is ****** as is.

The idea behind the scaling is just Power Suit Samus fought Ridley, hence the same tier. Varia Suit Samus being baseline 6-B, beat Ridley in ZM and the manga, and having his Plasma Breath calced at 6-C just meant he remained at 6-C. It wasn't supposed to signify Power Suit Samus > Ridley.

But did she? If we take the manga like you're insinuating, she did **** all, she got ragdolled. If we take the games, see my entire argument.
No matter how you slice it, it's ****** and wrong, need to be changed, there is no comparability if we go your way as they'd never have actually interacted in a way to scale properly.
ANd his Plasma breath is very clearly not 6-C anymore so the basis of "it's just a bit under" doesn't hold up.

Like I told you before, in ZM Ridley lost to Varia Suit Samus. After ZM, Ridley consistently fought against a Full-Powered / Nearly Full-Powered Legendary Gravity Suit Samus. There is a very clear gap in tiering there.

And like I've told you before, there's clearly a odd one out here. You just said it yourself "Ridley has consistently fought against ----", in what world wouldn't we take his consistent showings over a single one off? I know you're arguing that the other suits for some increase power output by entire ******* magnitudes, but I'm clearly arguing against that here am I not? So no, I'd argue there isn't a very clear gap.

...Because she can damage people who can damage her? Power scaling, again, seems to be thrown completely out the window.

Based on? What? The video games? How do we know what to trust in the games? Given the same games has Ridley harming Samus, even in ZM, yet in the manga she's taken zero damage. Clearly what happens in game shouldn't be taken at face value anymore no?

I also don't think you recognize that Samus' version of her equipment is canonically considered superior to whatever versions the rest of the universe has.
I'm aware it's considered top shit, but it's not straight up better than everything else, if it is, why aren't we scaling her to shit like the tier 4 anti-matter bombs? She has anti-matter attacks in Prime 2, so ergo, tier 4 anti-matter attacks right? Again, that's not even inherently true, there's been multiple instances where Samus and foes and enemies have been on similar footing with similar weaponry, if not the same. And this only actually applies to them copying her equipment, they have worse versions because they can't replicate it properly, that isn't gonna cut it here lad, given they aren't replicating it, they're using the exact same weapon, the reason why other versions are inferior is completely skipped and they have the real deal.

For example, the GF has access to the Ice Beam and Plasma Beam, but both versions are completely lacking in comparison unless Samus absorbs them. They are very explicit that their feats is mostly because they're using Samus' equipment, including the Ice Beam antagonist.

The Feds versions suck because they keep trying to replicate it and ******* it up or having to make compromises. It's not the same weapon, it's a pale copy of it. And yes, my point, it is VERY MUCH played off in S&J that them having the data capsules puts them on par with Samus using them. Because tehy're literally her versions of it and the same weapon.

And that's not even bringing up that the Greed Corps can't use her upgrades to their full potential. For example, in the Missile chapter, the guy's Super Missiles were inferior enough that Power Suit Samus could capture them. Similarly the Screw Attack didn't even have the energy projection/ invulnerability Samus usually has.

Ignoring the dead links, again. Out of context, that's actually pretty disingenuous. I'm assuming you mean when Samus calls him out on never being able to master the missiles and when she deflects it? Hate to break it to you, but that has absolutely nothing to do with power. It's because he's dumb as shit and, well, won't be able to master them because he's a trigger happy dumbass who just blasts away recklessly. And yes, Samus deflects it, not because it's weaker when he has it, that;s straight up never said, she deflects because she outright explains how, the Super Missiles, while powerful, are quite slow and have minimal spin, whoch allowed her to grab and toss it back. Your argument it based on a false premise and disingenuous at best.
I also want to point out in that chapter, they outright say that Samus' only weapon is the power beam, and the power beam, as a weapon is weak so don't fear (Which they should, but eh, the reasoning they gave still stands). And the power beam, as a weapon, is piss weak and does zero damage to the dude, yet the super missile kills him, despite coming from him.
What's that mean?
It means that dude's missiles >>>>>> Samus' power beam, but if Samus is supposed to be universally above everyone and her weapons scale accordingly with her suit, wouldn't it make sense for the power beam to be comparable to the missiles, or at least in the same category instead :unsure:
Let's not even get into the fact the dude keeps referring to the missiles as exceptionally strong irrespective of his own strength.

Why would that be? Because the weapons don't vary on who wields them. It's made pretty obvious, they're static in power or at least, any variance comes pre-built in like charging the beams or super missiles.

Secondly, the Screw Attack actually did have energy projection, the moment the starts using it, he starts shooting off strands of lightning-esque energy. And it is invulnerable, Samus outright states "NEVER touch the Screw Attack! Anything that does is destroyed! It's an invincible spinning sphere!" "Damn, if he's integrated the morph ball with the screw attack, damn! Beams and missiles won't work! What do we do!"
He also states "Your weapons are armor are useless!".

And the weakness of his isn't because of him, it's a weakness of the Screw Attack in general, Samus outright states "What's the Screw Attack's fatal weakness" and ponders what it is and figures it out, and explains it. That isn't exclusive to his version, it's straight up a weakness to it in general, hell it should be listed on the profile even in her weaknesses because it's explicitly a weakness of the technique as a whole, including her's.
As for the lack of energy, not even her version has the energy the majority of the time in the manga, that's simply what it looks like in that media.

Both your examples given are blatantly false or based on a false premise. If anything you've supported my point by pointing out two examples that in the actual context, adhere to what I'm arguing.

So the jump for tier 5 to 4 in Prime 2 makes sense for you, but tier 6 to 5 between the earlier suits doesn't? It's literally the same case.

I mean, the jump to tier 4 in Prime 2 makes sense because she's sucking up an absolute ******* ridiculous amount of through out the whole game and at the end even goes in guns blazing with a **** ton of it. It's not literally the same case, that's a straight up lie.

The part about the suit being even stronger meaning durability is just an assumption. It also says the same thing in Echoes, which notably doesn't increase durability (Since you don't actually use the basic Power Suit) / you're supposed to use the Power Beam a lot in that game too, yet we know she goes from tier 5 to 4. You're right about the second part, I just brought it so the full statement was there.

It's less an assumption and basic reading comprehension based on the context of the statement and correlated evidence. I stand by what I said, stronger can very easily mean the suit's stronger in the sense it can take more damage, especially given that's how it's portrayed in practically everything. Actually yeah, how the **** are you getting "made even stronger" to be about weaponry augmentation? Everything including the context points to it's innate defensive attributes. And yes, I'm aware of the source material that statement comes from, the prime 2 manual.

Yes? If it increases her in all attributes then obviously her AP would be included? I don't understand how that's an argument.

Physical attributes. Since when did wearing a suit of armor that enhances one's physical capabilities effect how strong the gun you have is? It doesn't, and that's what I'm arguing, because it's made apparent more times then not, that Samus' weaponry be like it do, it doesn't get amped when her suit does.

So you're alright with her physical strength being amped, but not her beam strength? The bulky pats, as far as I'm aware, haven't been retconned from being power generators.

Yes, I'm ok with the bulky muscular biosuit granting increased physical prowess over the smaller suit, thinner suit. My dude, they could be still power generators and what would that matter? Having more power generation doesn't mean she can feed said power into her weapons to amp. The only real exception to this would maybe be the power beam based on how that works and interacts with the suit? But something like missiles for example, what the **** would a power generator do? They don't even work by being empowered by her in the first place to begin with, they're honestly probably the most blatant example of static power in a weapon based on the mechanics of them alone. But nah, pretty sure they've been steathily changed based on Retro's art and blue prints of them but
How is the power scaling headcanon? It's like, the most straightforward thing here. Gravity Suit > Ridley (Post-Prime) > Legendary Varia Suit >Legendary Power Suit > Varia Suit > Ridley (ZM) > Power Suit is quite literally just based on when we fight Ridley in the games with what gear. Which part of this is headcanon, specially?
Powerscaling as a concept isn't headcanon, of course it's alright. Some basic powerscaling would be MB (Super) > Samus. That power scaling though I'm arguing is headcanon based on how little actual evidence there is for it, you have to actively dig for info to try and make it check out, and even there's ample contradictory info that goes against it. The existence of that chain is what's headcanon.
Hell, the fact you're even tossing Gravity in there as an amp is baffling in and of itself, you've barely got actual statements for Varia, let alone Gravity being an amp.
And what part is headcanon? That's an odd question to ask given I'm made it clear what parts I've taken issue with.

This is probably an entire argument on its own, considering that as far as I'm aware the X do amp them at times. Specifically, Neo-Ridley transformed from a mimic of Super Metroid Ridley before becoming Neo Ridley. SA-X has a secondary transformation, most of the SR-388 clones are evolutions of their non-X forms, like the Hornoad for example.
The fact you have to preface that with sometimes is worrying as is, that's honestly my issue with your arguments, it's all maybes or possiblys, nothing concrete.
But yeah, they can amp sometimes, but when they do so it's by mixing and splicing past hosts genes into that of the creature they're currently mimicking. No such evidence for that exists in the case of Ridley. The SA-X's transformation is actually due to the previous reasoning iirc, it was a mix between Samus and those little frog lads. There's definitely visual differences but given the numerous statements saying they attempt perfect mimicry... And in the actual game that's shown to be the case for the most part.

Hell by late game, they made regular Space Pirates into a copy of the Gold Pirates (somehow) from Super Metroid. That's quite literally a jump from tier 7 to 5.
eh.

I'd hope so, they have access to the whole genome, why wouldn't they be able to mimic pre-exiting sub-types of the creature they copied the genes of 🤷‍♂️
A 6-C being should be able to survive 3 or so shots from a baseline 6-B character.
Uh, not really no. Ignoring the first two hits he took just fine actually, and the third hit he also tanked, it was the whole "being burned alive" thing that did him in (which isn't even the first time, he got ****** by being caught in a tier 7 blast, with it being pointed out him being burned alive is what ****** him up really bad). Yeah, he took attacks from quite well and was done in by something that he just sucks against ig based on past precedence.
And also, what? Ignoring the fact he ain't 6-C, that 6-C calc is wrong, if we using that he's Tier 7 at best, even with 6-C, you realize the difference between baseline 6-B and what Ridley was at is like, 500x right? Ridley would have been reduced to a bloody spray or vapor if hit by a gap that large even once.

6-C isn't even the tier below 6-B, there's low 6-B and High 6-C too, it's a h u g e difference.

No, I just responded to you only saying clones by only saying Other M.
So you didn't actually attempt to refute the point with an actual counter.
Clones, two of them, actually just one but featured in two games, were shown around that of Varia and above, and while yes, Samus did lose some will, she got back into it for the fight and went all out and Ridley was still a match, a Ridley clone, who had zero amps or augmentations, and could even toss hands with Samus a bit as a adolescents. And then an X in Fusion that is stated to be replicating his genes, fighting Samus.

The Plasma Beam was quite literally inferior right before Fusion in Other M. Hell, the entire reason the Feds tried to trap Samus & SA-X in the last part of Fusion is because their tech is still inferior. But even if we didn't know this, the idea that the Federation is anywhere close to Samus when even the Pirates hadn't figured out the Morph Ball with the help of Mother Brain is absurd.

Half truth, they tried to trap Samus at the end of Fusion because they wanted the X, as a whole, not just her, but weaponized X. Which Samus was like yeah **** off with that I'd rather die. And sure, why wouldnt they want an army of Samus clones or more time to study, replicate or even improve her tech? It's not like the feds are incapable of creating weapons or tech that can complicate Samus, I mean, see literally the next game (Unless it's a **** ton of time post Fusion).
With the help of Mother Brain? Who says Mother Brain was actively helping with that project? In fact, if Mother Brain was helping with that project I'd assume they ******* could perfectly given she has access and knows a **** ton of Chozo lore and managed to make a form that ragdolled and stomped Samus at her near peak, so it ain't like the Pirates with MB's help can't make tech and weapons above Samus.

They walked out of Mother Brain's room, that's pretty deep in Tourian.

Which alone should be a red flag given you just argued they walked out of a room miles underground, into a top of a mountain that can be seen from the sky.


I could just do the same lad. Though the fact you repeated the same argument with the S&J scans is pretty off-putting, it's bordeing on lies there. It's a pretty obvious falally, what is it? False cause?
You're saying that Samus managing to deflect the Super Missile means it's weaker then her own, even though it's explained why she could do so. Or how because that dude's Screw Attack isn't invincible, it's weaker than Samus', even though it's made blatantly obvious and stated multiple times missiles and beams won't work on him, he's invincible, and he can't be touched. And the weakness of it is blatantly in regards to the technique as a whole, not his version exclusively.
 
Anyway, 6-C Ridley has to go, it ain't staying. The calc is straight up wrong several times over.

You're looking at High 7-C (+ I think if memory serves), or 8-C.

Pick one.
 
Guys seriously, calm down.

Also, 8-C is whack; that's even worse than what Zero Suit Samus has. High 7-C or 7-C+ looks AOK though.
 
Guys seriously, calm down.

Also, 8-C is whack; that's even worse than what Zero Suit Samus has. High 7-C or 7-C+ looks AOK though.
It is whack, which is why I've been saying to find an alternative to scale him to.

I don't want Ridley at 8-C, pretty sure there's mook ass fodder that have 8-B feats even. But that's what that explosion is, it ain't tier 6, so if we scaling him to that blast, that's what's gonna happen. That's the calc, not 6-C, 8-C, High 7-C with gravity, but given it's Tourian I doubt the gravity would apply as Crateria and Tourian are the safe zones.

Though I brought up an alternative, scale his ass to Platinum, that's basic power scaling that results in 6-B.
 
The absolute worst case scenario is upscaling them from fodder space Pirates. Which would be 7-C.
 
And you don't see the huge red flag with that? I'd sooner scale Ridley to Greed.

I'm honestly baffled at how much twisted info is on these profiles. Like for example, when was it ever stated the S&J Country Busters could not harm MB's shields for example? That's rhetorical, they've never even been mentioned in the same media so we have no idea if they could or not, the profile claiming that as an absolute fact is blatantly untrue.

The profiles are filled to the brim with weird things like that, why hasn't anyone pointed this out on them?
I don't have issues with the feats, I mean at the end of the day, tier 5-4 Metroid is aight and there's numerous tier 6 feats, besides this Ridley one in particular because it's simply not as big as implied in the calc (though it'd be nice if we got some game feats to corroborate the manga feats, it ain't like there ain't any high end game feats we could calc and slap numbers on, because like 90% of the feats being used aren't even from games, not like that's wrong in this case as they do have some canon merit, but still, the more, the better). The odd part is some of this bullshit doesn't even lead to inflated results, some of it is actively detrimental, it's honestly just weird, I'm not sure what's going on tbh.

And there's to many "maybes" and "possibly's" being used here instead of solid and concrete evidence, this is the type of shit that get verses torn apart and stomped into the ground.

But no, the worse case scenario is Ridley two shot a dude who's effectively 6-B, so he's that.
Or well, who knows if he's 6-B, given MB's shield's have wonky justification for their durability. But pretty sure the gravity / surface calc is legit and was tier 6 so it should be fine.
 
That wasn't my final proposal, only that anything lower than that is even more whack. She's clearly way higher than the space pirates.

Also, I would appreciate it if you cease with the hostility and bold accusations. I do appreciate you're just trying to help, but at the same time. This was not the 1st time you went above and beyond with that stuff. SD has also worked extremely hard on the verse and what not. And I'd prefer to wait for his next comment before we conclude anything.
 
I'm not being hostile, or accussing.
Well I did accuse directly at least once actually with me being aware of the fact I was doing so, but that was in regards to the S&J missile and screw attack argument. That's pretty disingenuous imo. false premise and faulty conclusion and quite a bit of ignored context, maybe it wasn't on purpose, but it's definitely coming off as disingenuous to me.

The above wasn't me calling out anyone fyi, it's an actual question, I'm surprised nobody actually pointed things like that out. And there's a surprising amount of things like that. That's not an accusation or hostility, it's me actually wondering how'd they even happen, there must have been some reason why it got listed? But that reason doesn't exist, or well maybe I shouldn't say that, but I'm almost certain it doesnt, maybe a carry over from the OBD? I simply do not know, but it be like it do, there's some suspect claims on the profiles. I'm baffled nobody's pointed them out. And the calc thing wasn't even me bad, I'll probably take it upon myself to calc some game feats we can use to flesh out the verse's scaling and back up higher feats. As said, the more feats the better.

This was not the 1st time you went above and beyond with that stuff
You mean, debate? DDM, it's a debate site, what do you expect, if there's things I disagree with and I find to be disingenuous, false, or not supported by enough evidence, I'm gonna argue it, how much I do so depends, but this here isn't even that bad. Definitely hasn't entered hostility or heated yet, just the way I talk (hell you could probably ask half a dozen lads and they'd be like ye)., nothing against you or Data, actually you're probably some of the more chill dudes on this site. But be that as it may, if I disagree, I'm probably gonna argue it extensively unless sufficient proof is provided to make me reconsider or to positively debunk my initial thoughts.

SD has also worked extremely hard on the verse and what not.

Cool, I appreciate his work, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree or point out faulty info on the profiles?

And I'd prefer to wait for his next comment before we conclude anything.

We wouldn't even conclude anything even if he does continue this debate, we still gotta wait for OP, we ain't finishing this thread till OP gets his say, that's only fair.

But hey, 6-B or whatever Platinum/Ridley, always an option, we can skip some of the bullshit with that alone.
 
First off, what antimatter tier 4 feat are you talking about? Cause I only recall one feat from MP2 that we have that’s tier 4.
 
First off, what antimatter tier 4 feat are you talking about? Cause I only recall one feat from MP2 that we have that’s tier 4.

The BSL station's self-destruct device at the end of Fusion has been alluded to being an anti-matter based bomb.
The explosion that destroyed SR388 and engulfed the surrounding area was calced at some degree of tier 4 if memory serves. (Idk, Chaos I think? I maybe it was iwan).

So anti-matter bomb, some degree of tier 4 or whatever.

Though for other tier 4 feats, I think there might be two others but they're hyper specific and don't scale to anyone normally so they arent important.

And yeah, we're missing a whole slew of feats/calcs for some reason, some of which are even mentioned on the profiles but we don't have the calc for them linked anywhere from what I can see (Like MB's shields being compared to the Zebes shields which tanked the macro black hole generator, that's been calced and it being tier 6 was calced, which is why I assume it's being used for 6-B justification, but hell if the calc is linked anywhere).
Not sure why a bunch of important feats for scaling are basically missing but eh, a lot of them arent hard to calc, I could probably toss a few together after we get that Zelda shit finished as that's kinda a higher priority atm (I have a High 6-B Metroid calc done in a note somewhere, could probably post that right now tbh).
 
Zero Suit Samus' durability calc is wrong by the way. It assumes the full fall speed of her spaceship hit her, which makes no sense, if a normal car has stuff built into it to try to ensure the driver's survival, a futuristic-ass spaceship definitely does, and even if that wasn't the case the spaceship would have absorbed most of the fall anyway.
 
Actually, she still withstand the giant explosion and it already takes inverse square law into account. A recalc could happen, but it's actually lowballed if anything.
 
Who's to say an explosion happened at all when the gunship landed? And who's to say its own cockpit didn't absorb most of it?
 
We have a cinematic cutscene of her ship getting shot, and crashing and exploding back on Zebes. She took damage from the ship but survived.
 
Yeah, and we don't know how much of the energy the ship absorbed. Realistically, it's probably much more durable than Samus herself, so it would be what tanks most of the explosion.
 
… the ship itself blew up. How could it absorb an explosion that was caused by it blowing up?
 
It's still made of metal and shit, we don't see the wreck so we can't assume it was completely annihilated. If, say, the engine blew up, it would have had to blast through the floor of the ship before hitting Samus.
 
What’s with this massive backwards ass logic of “what if this happened” as opposed to what actually happened? Which is her ship blew up? We literally see it shot down, it crashes, and a massive explosion happens. The blast would’ve gone FAR more than the metal plating when the explosion dwarfs the entire ship size, so that argument is moot to begin with.
 
I can get a based calc for her ship (or, a ship, the Super Metroid version) going for it. But, it's a manga feat...

We could also probably just calc the explosion and slap it on her. (Iirc she can take a few shots from Pirates before dying too? Maybe that'll help?).
 
So that's a (pretty big downscale) at least. We could do "At most [Space pirate AP]" for her durability?
Though we should still just recalc the explosion anyhow.
 
the space pirates should at bare minimum scale to the explosion of her ship since she survived it, but couldn't exactly do much to them beyond temporarily stunning them.
 
I haven’t read the entire thread, but I don’t think Samus should scale to her ice beam. It’s a cooling feat, not physical blunt force.

For a real life example: Hornets can instantly kill bees in a single hit, but bees can boil hornets alive with their body heat. So bees constantly are hotter than hornets to the point they literally boil hornets, yet hornets still causally one shot them physically.

So why should Samus scale to a cooling feats when cooling and physical feats clearly don’t scale in real life. Does she have a non ice related feat on the level of the high 6-A feat?

If we are already well past this point, I’m sorry. I can reask this later if that would be better.
 
the space pirates should at bare minimum scale to the explosion of her ship since she survived it, but couldn't exactly do much to them beyond temporarily stunning them.
Yeah, AP for her might be a small issue. There might be a few things though.

but I don’t think Samus should scale to her ice beam. It’s a cooling feat, not physical blunt force.
Something something thermal shock. Something something energy.
That's more on Data and DDM to explain, though I'm fine with it scaling to anyone who's tanked the Plasma Beam as Plasma Beam > Ice beam in output.
 
A plasma beam would be a heat feat, which also shouldn’t scale physically.

As for thermal shock, that also sounds like an elemental effect that shouldn’t scale physically (I don’t know much about it, but from what I remember plenty of things in the real world have vastly different resistances to vast temperature changes, like your pc will get f*ck from sudden temperature changes that a regular person would be completely uneffected by).
 
Back
Top