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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade

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Tivanenk said:
True. But this alone debunks practically all of the calcs except for the railgun one.
Click to expand...
No. A bullet displaying above-normal speed is the exception not the standard.
 
No offense, but it's just standard assumptions that were made. You may argue about Vivi's, but that one isn't fully made-up.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No offense, but it's just standard assumptions that were made. You may argue about Vivi's, but that one isn't fully made-up.
Click to expand...
He literally did not scale anything at all and took every single value from Vivi's calc, it is functionally identical to Vivi's except the only difference is the missile's speed.
 
I just realized. You scaled off the wrong missile. You scaled from the closest missile which is not side by side with the missile that Raiden jumped off, but rather above and close to the screen. Which makes a huge difference when there is a change in perspective (the screen shifts upwards).
 
Okay. How about this.

We ask for input from Calculation Members. It's their job to value calcs. They'll say if they think your assumptions or Vivi's are more valid.
 
Tivanenk said:
I just realized. You scaled off the wrong missile. You scaled from the closest missile which is not side by side with the missile that Raiden jumped off, but rather above and close to the screen. Which makes a huge difference when there is a change in perspective (the screen shifts upwards).
Click to expand...
When Raiden lands on a missile it stops moving, or at least slows considerably. We can measure how far the non-touched missiles are moving per frame by how far that missile moved side-by-side compared to the one Raiden is standing on. The frame I pulled has very minimal camera movement, if any at all, so the margin for error here is low.

"We ask for input from Calculation Members. It's their job to value calcs. They'll say if they think your assumptions or Vivi's are more valid."

Aiden and Blue? Not to mention I'm also a calculation member and Vivi's automatically hold no weight since, as I said, he made everything up.
 
Sorry, but that is more evidence that you should scale from that missile. You need to scale from interacted objects first and fore most, not background objects.
 
@Xcano

I still think you hold no weight, but this is not what I want to bring up.

Rather...

Just sorry for being rude to you, and acting like an asshole. I don't mean to hurt you.

Sorry.
 
Tivanenk said:
Sorry, but that is more evidence that you should scale from that missile. You need to scale from interacted objects first and fore most, not background objects.
Click to expand...
Since when has that been a rule?
 
LordXcano said:
Tivanenk said:
Sorry, but that is more evidence that you should scale from that missile. You need to scale from interacted objects first and fore most, not background objects.
Click to expand...
Since when has that been a rule?
Click to expand...
It is common sense. Interacted objects are the primary focus of concern in this situation. Background objects have secondary priority.
 
Tivanenk said:
It is common sense. Interacted objects are the primary focus of concern in this situation. Background objects have secondary priority.
Click to expand...
Okay, but when a missile is moving at the speed I measured and then slows dramatically when Raiden lands on it that likely means Raiden is "weighing it down" and therefore the non-interacted missiles are moving at their real 320 m/s speed.
 
Tivanenk said:
I just realized. You scaled off the wrong missile. You scaled from the closest missile which is not side by side with the missile that Raiden jumped off, but rather above and close to the screen. Which makes a huge difference when there is a change in perspective (the screen shifts upwards).
Click to expand...
If this is true than the entire thread gets thrown of the window...
 
LordXcano said:
Tivanenk said:
It is common sense. Interacted objects are the primary focus of concern in this situation. Background objects have secondary priority.
Click to expand...
Okay, but when a missile is moving at the speed I measured and then slows dramatically when Raiden lands on it that likely means Raiden is "weighing it down" and therefore the non-interacted missiles are moving at their real 320 m/s speed.
Click to expand...
Except when I look at the pictures you yourself posted, the missile slowed down even before Raiden landed on it at all. It slowed down as soon as he jumped. What does this mean? Cinematic effects. It shows how fast Raiden is jumping that the missile barely moves at all. The reason why the other missiles don't slow down is because they are not part of the interacted objects, they are the background.

In such cinematic timing, the objects that are being interacted with (Raiden, and the missile he lands) are the ones that need to be taken into consideration.
 
I have replied to the Snake dodges a railgun. Calc looks solid, although there is a minor adjustment you need to make.

Edit: I have also replied to the Raiden Missile hopping calculation. The results, you will see when you get there.

ALSO!

I have PM'd Endless Mike about the speed of electricity in air being 60km/s, and he replied that he got it from "a reliable source", but he did not post the actual source. As such, if there is no valid source for the speed, we will go with LordX's calculation for Ocelot's speed.
 
Lina Shields said:
I have replied to the Snake dodges a railgun. Calc looks solid, although there is a minor adjustment you need to make.

Edit: I have also replied to the Raiden Missile hopping calculation. The results, you will see when you get there.

ALSO!

I have PM'd Endless Mike about the speed of electricity in air being 60km/s, and he replied that he got it from "a reliable source", but he did not post the actual source. As such, if there is no valid source for the speed, we will go with LordX's calculation for Ocelot's speed.
Click to expand...
Ask him what "reliable source" he used, lol
 
I have asked him. He told me to ask another user named Willyvereb, so I have PM'd him instead.

Anyways, in the worst case scenario, we will go with LordX's version, and even that may be an outlier because apparently Raiden's jumping speed is barely over Mach 1.
 
In the worst case scenario, I think we can scale the characters from this, since Snake can dodge Volgin's attacks in-game.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Revolver_Ocelot_Shoots_Lightning_Revision_2

Apparently, the MGS4 Novelization contains a scene in which Raiden slices a dozen Metal Gear Geckos into little pieces under the blink of an eye to save Snake.

We currently use a feat from the Return of the Jedi novelization for Star Wars' speed, so maybe that could be applied too?

Also this line:

"Raiden used his free hand to swiftly pluck out the daggers, returning them to Vamp with machine-gun speed."
 
Thebluedash said:
No, that's how things work here. Yes, of course the guns move at that speed. But when we calc we can't assume the gun is that speed. That is the definition of calc stacking.
EX -

Bass is hypersonic.

This bullet is faster than him.

Someone dodges it.

If I assume the bullet was hypersonic here for the calc. It wouldn't be accepted.
Click to expand...

Completely disagree with upping muzzle velocity (for calculations) on this logic alone.

Are those comic book scans non canon to the series like Twin Snakes? Because most of the feats you show don't occur in the original playstation one game. @Matt

PS: you triple posted again.
 
@AMM

They are adaptations. However, unlike The Twin Snakes which is rejected / hated by Kojima, him and Konami aproved of them, and pushed to have them in digital form.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3234520-1.png

Kojima Productions took the time to make a digital motion comic with voice acting and soundtrack version of it for the PSP. So we can definitely use feats from it, rather than Twin Snakes which had no involvement or aprovement from Kojima or Kojima Productions.
 
Lina Shields said:
I have asked him. He told me to ask another user named Willyvereb, so I have PM'd him instead.

Anyways, in the worst case scenario, we will go with LordX's version, and even that may be an outlier because apparently Raiden's jumping speed is barely over Mach 1.
Click to expand...
Have you gotten a response?
 
By the way, gameplay Raiden is straight up Hypersonic or Hypersonic+

One

Two

In here he blocks a projectile from the highly-advanced Metal Gear Ray in point-blank. As you can see, the animation even glitched and had the projectile going through Raiden before he blocked it, due to how close it was.

This is consistent, you can run towards enemies shooting at you while on Ninja Run and Raiden will block every projectile as he approaches them, even if they are at centimeters from each other.
 
Even if this had real lightning speed, all of other feats done by Snake heavily contradict this feat, as most of the feats are not even reaching Subsonic, with only three feats just barely going over that speed range.

Hence, even if it was real lightning speed, it will be considering an outlier as comparable/stronger characters such as Solid Snake and Raiden are barely making over the Supersonic range.

It is similar in reasoning to why Roshi's moon bust was considered an outlier due to being vastly above feats from the rest of the cast at that time.

Lastly, I have some concerns about the 60km/s, but only at 1 nanosecond. Alternatively, after 1 microsecond has passed, the speed decreased to about 2.2km/s, a major speed decrease. This means that the speed of electricity fluctuates (or decreases) within passing of very brief periods of time. As such, the 60km/s is not a consistent speed.

Lightning speed
Whatever. I agree with the proposal that the speed should be downgraded.
 
Me too, after this speed downgrade, i will make a stats downgrade thread for some character like Liquid.
 
"Except when I look at the pictures you yourself posted, the missile slowed down even before Raiden landed on it at all. It slowed down as soon as he jumped."

The pictures are taken after he lands, each missile is moving at regular speed before he lands on it.

"Raiden used his free hand to swiftly pluck out the daggers, returning them to Vamp with machine-gun speed."

The highest muzzle velocity ever is 1,200 m/s, so this is Mach 3.52 at best.

"Revisions assumes lightning isn't real lightning just because it doesn't appear so."

As I have said 100x before, even assuming it is it is still an outlier seeing as how every single other feat is Supersonic. This would be boosting the character's speed over 1000x their displayed feats because of 1 scene.

I will try to calc all of these right after I revise the Mach 2000 Raiden feat. However:

This is too vague to calc, there's no reference as to how far Snake moved or if he even moved after the bullets were fired.
 
Thebluedash said:
No, that's how things work here. Yes, of course the guns move at that speed. But when we calc we can't assume the gun is that speed. That is the definition of calc stacking. Example:
  • Bass is hypersonic.
  • This bullet is faster than him.
  • Someone dodges it.
If I assume the bullet was hypersonic here for the calc. It wouldn't be accepted.
Click to expand...
  • The issue with example is that we have an actual set speed for the muzzle velocity of the gun that Revolver Ocelot uses, which is this gu here. It is the same reason why we use 440,000m/s for the speed of lightning, as that is a set speed for it (meaning it does not change).
  • However, in your example, if the bullet manages to actually outpace Bass, who can move at Hypersonic speeds, both the bullet and the person who dodged the bullet would have Hypersonic speed via scaling (unless there was a set speed for that bullet beforehand).
 
Lina Shields said:
  • The issue with example is that we have an actual set speed for the muzzle velocity of the gun that Revolver Ocelot uses, which is this gu here. It is the same reason why we use 440,000m/s for the speed of lightning, as that is a set speed for it (meaning it does not change).
  • However, in your example, if the bullet manages to actually outpace Bass, who can move at Hypersonic speeds, both the bullet and the person who dodged the bullet would have Hypersonic speed via scaling (unless there was a set speed for that bullet beforehand).
Click to expand...
1. I added one of the Gray Fox calcs to the OP

2. Say the bullet has a real-world speed of 300 m/s, yet it outpaces Bass. Depending on how consistent Bass' Hypersonic feats are whether this is an anti-feat or not depends. If he has several Hypersonic feats then it is not an anti-feat and is an anomalous feat for the bullet. If he has displayed Hypersonic speeds just once or twice then it is an anti-feat for Bass.

However, that does not mean that everyone who from then on out dodges that bullet is Hypersonic, you still assume the bullets are real speed unless there's something notable about this gun.
 
The post that I have made above was under the assumption that the bullet speed was not set in stone. If the bullet speed is set in stone however, then your example would be correct.
 
The revised Mach 2000 calc only applies to upgraded Raiden, as well as the Desperados, correct? The result for that calc seems reasonable, so I will check it later.

Also, I commented on your first Raiden missile hopping calc.
 
I only know of you, Tiva and Man from Shadow.

Me, Blue, Anton, Aiden, Lina, Aquila, AMM and (apparently) Dark 649 support the downgrade.

Also I updated the Tengu feat and added in the helicopter bullet feat.
 
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