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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade

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LordXcano

LordXcano

VS Battles
Retired
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I've recently done several calcs for this verse, and I think we're in for a downgrade. The thing we currently scale just about everyone to is Ocelot's lightning feat. However I revised this and got just Mach 17. In addition I did a few more calculations to back up the consistency of this.

Overall the series seems to be Trans-Supersonic in speed. But this is only the main series. I decided to redo Raiden's Mach 1700 missile hop feat as well. I got Mach 2.7. With Blade Mode increasing his speed by 10x over this would be Mach 27.

I have not revised the Mach 2000 feat yet, but it was done on the same assuptions as the Mach 1700 was. Because of this I think it'll be similarly low, but I can't say for sure right now.

As a tl;dr here, pretty much every character gets a downgrade to Supersonic+, Raiden's first body in MGR gets downgraded to "at least Supersonic+ with High Hypersonic Reactions" with at least "Hypersonic with High Hypersonic+ Reactions" for his current body.

For: 10

Against: 5
 
Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
If this is accepted it'll be a huge downgrade....
Click to expand...
And it is wrong. He is simply going "I don't believe that Volgin is real lightning so I'll ignore that and I'll also ignore the higher-end calcs for Raiden"
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Downplay beyond downplays.
Click to expand...
There's no way you checked those calcs in just 2 minutes. Even assuming the lightning is legit it's very obviously an outlier seeing as Raiden in his first cyborg body is just Supersonic+.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
If this is accepted it'll be a huge downgrade....
Click to expand...
And it is wrong. He is simply going "I don't believe that Volgin is real lightning so I'll ignore that and I'll also ignore the higher-end calcs for Raiden"
Click to expand...

hmm alright, i'll just set back and watch this thread progress for a bit
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
And it is wrong. He is simply going "I don't believe that Volgin is real lightning so I'll ignore that and I'll also ignore the higher-end calcs for Raiden"
Click to expand...
1. Volgin's lightning fails to display real speed twice in the exact same feat

2. I did the high-end feat, it's Mach 2.7. The other feat is based on the same assumptions so it will be comparatively low
 
"Fails to display real speed"

What kind of argument is this? Do you want the entire scene to happen so fast you'll be incapable of seeing? Do you want the game to be unplayable?
 
"What kind of argument is this? Do you want the entire scene to happen so fast you'll be incapable of seeing? Do you want the game to be unplayable?"

There is a slow-motion scene where we can compare the lightning's speed to the bullets. It comes out as Mach 20.

"Your Raiden calc is massive downplaying. He is far faster than just Supersonic or Hypersonic."

You know the proof for that is out the window because the MHS+ calc for his first body is the calc I revised to get Mach 2.7? Simply stating that can't be true because he's faster is ontological.

"I know, in the op it says hypersonic+ reactions"

Oh okay, thanks I'll edit that.
 
Don't think that Xcano is trying to downgrade, he hasn't the fault of that result. Don't known the other calcs, but the mentioned above seems some consistent and are using real references, I would need to look the other calcs that support the MHS+ ratings.
 
Yeah, I'm not buying your revised calc.

Volgin's lightning displays every single property of real lightning. It's far more believable that it is, rather than being everything short of speed.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Yeah, I'm not buying your revised calc.
Volgin's lightning displays every single property of real lightning. It's far more believable that it is, rather than being everything short of speed.
Click to expand...
You can't just ignore a calc because you don't like the result.

Also no, it isn't. I have provided proof that it isn't lightning speed (it's just 20~x faster than a bullet). The burden of proof is on you to show a feat displaying it at lightning speed.
 
One Slow-Motion cutscene where it isn't as fast as real lightning Vs It having every single property of real lightning. The developers would never waste time to time the sequence correctly.

I can ignore a calc because the former calc is way better and more consistent.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
One Slow-Motion cutscene where it isn't as fast as real lightning Vs It having every single property of real lightning. The developers would never waste time to time the sequence correctly.
I can ignore a calc because the former calc is way better and more consistent.
Click to expand...
During the fight the lightning also moves only slightly faster than you ru and even stops in mid-air. And in this custcene the lightning takes several frames to travel just a few meters. So again, I ask you to provide proof that the lightning is real speed.

As for consistency I'm not sure if you're talking about the Raiden calc or the Volgin one. If it's the Volgin one you realize this is the only MHS feat they have, and as such would be the least consistent thing possible as I have provided 3 Trans-Supersonic feats.

If it's the Raiden one this is one of two MHS feats he has, and the other is based on the same assumptions as the first and as-such is illegitamate.
 
@Lord

Again, why not scale the bullet to the lightning? Why does it have to be the other way around?
 
IIRC blade mode allows raiden to make full swings of his sword faster than bullets have time to move, he also can blitz railgun bullets in-game with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMEXYnt_4f0

@ 2:26


Armstrong can also manage to catch your sword during the fight if you try to attack him with blade mode upfront however I can't seem to find gameplay videos to show it but there is this to corroborate it so their normal speed isn't that far from that.
 
The Everlasting said:
@Lord
Again, why not scale the bullet to the lightning? Why does it have to be the other way around?
Click to expand...
Think about it like Avatar. Avatar lightning bending displays most if not all properties of lightning. In Korra it's even stated to be actual electricity. But there is one property it does not display: speed.

If there was a scene in Avatar where someone shot an arrow at lightning-bending to deflect it, why would you scale the arrow to the lightning and not the other way around?

Feats are based on references to real-world phenomena. Arrows are a real thing that we know the speed of, we can compare something to that. Lightning being generated by humans is not a real phenomena, we have no references for that. Because of that the arrow's speed takes precedence.
 
I am not be the most foremost debater or expert on this verse so I can't say for certain that this is better...

But can't ya guys just debate over the characteristics and creation of the lightning instead? As far as I know, MGS is a pretty advanced tech verse so it can go either way in the scaling, but if said bullets come from a real life gun then the argument is probably shut down there for Lightning speed (Unless its enhanced by magic or something), but in contrast, if these guns are mentioned to be significantly greater or the lightning is proven real, then its lightning speed.

It seems much easier and logical this way.
 
SomebodyData said:
I am not be the most foremost debater or expert on this verse so I can't say for certain that this is better...
But can't ya guys just debate over the characteristics and creation of the lightning instead? As far as I know, MGS is a pretty advanced tech verse so it can go either way in the scaling, but if said bullets come from a real life gun then the argument is probably shut down there for Lightning speed (Unless its enhanced by magic or something), but in contrast, if these guns are mentioned to be significantly greater or the lightning is proven real, then its lightning speed.

It seems much easier and logical this way.
Click to expand...
The gun is said to be a a Colt Single Action Army Revolver, which has a muzzle velocity of 253 m/s.
 
Before anyone else starts commenting on this thread, has anyone checked this calc to see where the 60km/s for electricity speed comes from?

Also, I would like to see the discussion where we accepted the speed of electricity coming from electrical equipment to have real lightning speed.
 
It said it was suggested by Willy? Without any links to this Willy character or etc, we might have to re-do that calc.

I too, would like to see this.
 
SomebodyData said:
It said it was suggested by Willy? Without any links to this Willy character or etc, we might have to re-do that calc.
I too, would like to see this.
Click to expand...
There is no need to do it, just divide the numbers in that calc by this 8.6766798419=(2195.2 /253) number and you get the actual speed of the lighting scaling off the SAA.
 
Also Xcano you're still not accounting for all the movements in your ocelot recalculation, he not only shoots his double action 6 times, he also spins his body left and right which is still a considerable distance he moved that cannot be ignored.
 
Regarding willyverb

"An old Zandatsu calc for Raiden.
He performs a roughly 2m jump under only a split-second (5 frames maybe?) while the target is in free fall in the air and technically doesn't even move or just slowly.

There's a more impressive sub-relativistic calc based on a similar Zandatsu comparison but with bullets moving in the air.

There are 3 feats I lazily calced and gave Mach 150-300 results.

Anyways, I mentioned 3 of them.

First one is the most obvious so I start with this.
In the final scene in the fight against Sundowner the latter got flung by an explosion, sending Sundowner flying straight towards Raiden.
This is also the moment when you can freely slice him up into pieces.
While Blade Mode is active Sundowner barely but moves.
An extremely tiny distance.
Meanwhile Raiden is delivering slashes under 1/15th of a second.
The combination of these was a Mach 100-300 result.

Second feat is fairly easy to reproduce whenever you fight Hammerheads.
In that certain scene the helicopter sends you a barrage of Sidewinder missiles which you use like an improvised stairs to reach the target.
During this "quicktime event" the missiles move 0.1 meter per frame while the helicopter's rotor does a 90 degree spin.
Yet when you get to cutting up the chopper in the same scene the rotor's spins only 5 degrees while you deliver half the slash.
0.6*18*2.5/0.1 = Mach 270

Third is kinda difficult to quantify so I only used an estimate.
When performing a Zandatsu move, projectiles like bullets and such slow down to nearly a complete halt.
Meanwhile Raiden performs an elaborate sommersault maneuver, provided the enemy is in the air.
So the Mach 2 assault rifle bullet moves maybe 1 or 2 centimeters while Raiden does 3-4 meters.
If I manage to analyze this properly the feat could be even sub-relativistic.
But well, I'm also not sure if using the Zandatsu scene is legit."


Those feats are indeed legitimate as they do happen in-game.

But the numbers themselves need to be properly examined because for the life of me I cannot find a proper calc blog for any of this and the calcs, and as willy himself says, are lazily made and most likely give innacurate numbers.
 
I was going to post some of the feats Gray Fox done in MGS1 Twin Snakes, but it's a shame the game is not considered canon.

With that being said, I think this is a reasonable downgrade for the reasons Xcano mentioned. I also don't see flaws with the calculations.

@AguillaR101 you seem to misunderstand, the feat will not even be accounted for due to it's anomalous nature (Revolver Ocelot)
 
Also everyone (Like Liquid Snake [City Block level for him is inconsistent] Big Boss and Venom Snake) except characters like the Metal Gears, Vamp, MGS4 Raide, Screaming Mantis, MGR Bosses and maybe Solidus, needs to be dowgraded to "At least Building level with physical strikes, Multi-City Block level with weapons". For speed for current body Raiden and etc, we should put "At least Supersonic+, likely higher with High Hypersonic Reactions".
 
Dark649 said:
Also everyone (Like Liquid Snake [City Block level for him is inconsistent] and Big Boss) except the bosses like the Metal Gears, Vamp, Screaming Mantis and maybe Solidus, needs to be dowgraded to At least Building level with physical strikes, Multi-City Block level with weapons. For speed for current body Raiden and etc. we should put At least Supersonic+, likely higher with High Hypersonic Reactions
Click to expand...
Do note this is a speed downgrade, so with that in mind. I urge you to make a seperate thread if you wish to discuss this.
 
By the way, Snake's weaponry really is above modern world's.

He can destroy Building-sized / blowing mechs armed with nothing but Machine Guns and Rocket Launchers. His strongest bombs can vaporize a Metal Gear, too.

Fused Posts:

But yes. We can scale everyone physically from Snake's 9-A and 8-C feats (Surving torture from Volgin's lightning which has a power output of 10 Million Volts casually, surving walking in the Microwave Chamber for 4 minutes with only superficial body damage, lifting the 9000 tons Mech, destroying other mechs armed with only basic weaponry...

The 8-A feat comes from one of his strongest weaponry.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
By the way, Snake's weaponry really is above modern world's.
Click to expand...
Well we started with Naked Snake damaging Shagohod and Venom Snake figtning the Sahelanthropus to Snake destroying the Metal Gear Rex and the mgs4 bosses and Raiden stomping the gears with ease.
 
By the way, Old Snake has a Mach 20 feat. Old Snake, the absolute slowest and weakest of them.

Fused Posts:

Old Snake survived 5 minutes in the Microwave Room which could vaporize a normal man on contact. I wonder what vaporization of a human body would wield.

Anyway, this is all evidence that the weapons in the Metal Gear universe are far more advanced than real life. It even goes back all the way to MGS3, which takes place in 1964 but some of the game's weapons are from the 80s. Technology is ridiculously more advanced in the MGS world, and it is also chalk-full with superpowered individuals.
 
Lina Shields said:
Before anyone else starts commenting on this thread, has anyone checked this calc to see where the 60km/s for electricity speed comes from?

Also, I would like to see the discussion where we accepted the speed of electricity coming from electrical equipment to have real lightning speed.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this seems appropiate to revise; in fact, I've been working with currents for over one year and I'm pretty sure that currents hasn't speed, only discharge time
 
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