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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade

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Matthew Schroeder said:
Speaking of Jotaro.
He got reduced to bleeding by a group of regular people in one episode. Does that make him 9-C?.
Click to expand...
Off topic I know, but Jotaro on his own was always ranked as 9-C. I think you should be talking about Star Platinum in this case (who was never beaten down by a group of regular people)
 
Damn... if Raiden really dodged EM waves before... there really is no argument left for the downgrader side, considering those travel at the/near the speed of light.
 
"Assuming that one of the greatest soldiers in the world simply missed an entire machine-gun round at point blank because it looks like it, rather than assuming it looks like it because Vamp dodged all the bullets, is not rational."

Even assuming he dodges each and every single round each successive dodge would actually be slower than the first as the bullets are not pumped out faster than they actually move.

"And there hasn't been a single word about all of Gray Fox's feats."

That's because they were non-canon.

"So far, I have yet to see any proof whatsoever that the lightning isn't real."

This falls under the same situation as Avatar. It displays real properties, but not real speed.

"Do you people want me to contact Vivi and ask him about the Mach 1700 feat?"

Putting this in brackets and bold because this is important. Vivi made up that entire calc. He admitted he didn't even watch the video, he just went on info he was told because he was on mobile. That's why I revised it in the first place.

"Ocelot has a draw speed of Mach 255.9641556, and his bullets were also calculated a Mach 6."

You can't use the original source to prove me wrong when the point of this thread is to call the original source into question.

Also, I calculated the Olga feat and added it to the OP.
 
"You can't use the original source to prove me wrong when the point of this thread is to call the original source into question."

You never were against that particular calc.

The entire argument of inconsistency and outlier just got destroyed thanks to that calculation, the fact that the Verse can contain 100km/s bullets, the Raiden calc and how wrong the Vamp calc is.

Simply put, MGS being above Supersonic+ is clear.
 
Tivanenk said:
Damn... if Raiden really dodged EM waves before... there really is no argument left for the downgrader side, considering those travel at the/near the speed of light.
Click to expand...

It's MGR in his new body and that calc wasn't accepted as Raiden was outrunning an EM pulse, not the actual EM wave.
 
LordXcano said:
Tivanenk said:
Damn... if Raiden really dodged EM waves before... there really is no argument left for the downgrader side, considering those travel at the/near the speed of light.
Click to expand...
It's MGR in his new body and that calc wasn't accepted as Raiden was outrunning an EM pulse, not the actual EM wave.
Click to expand...
Nope. It's actual EM Waves. The game and manual both confirm it. Now you are just grasping at straws.

And that calc also destroys the non-argument of "Ocelot is being superior to Raiden"

Ocelot was only being superior to Raiden under you downplaying original calcs and overlooking others.

Also.

"You can't use the original source to prove me wrong when the point of this thread is to call the original source into question."

That's a fallacy.

That's like saying I can't use Darwin's theory of evolution to disprove Creationists simply because they want to disprove evolution.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
"You can't use the original source to prove me wrong when the point of this thread is to call the original source into question."
You never were against that particular calc.

The entire argument of inconsistency and outlier just got destroyed thanks to that calculation, the fact that the Verse can contain 100km/s bullets, the Raiden calc and how wrong the Vamp calc is.

Simply put, MGS being above Supersonic+ is clear.
Click to expand...
1. That calculation was not accepted (see above)

2. 100 km/s bullets for god-tier weaponry the entire verse is based around

3. The Raiden calc you just listed?

4. Pointing out the Vamp calc (which I just explained was a high-end) and ignoring the six other calcs that put them at Sub to Supersonic speed?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's MGR in his new body and that calc wasn't accepted as Raiden was outrunning an EM pulse, not the actual EM wave.
Click to expand...
Nope. It's actual EM Waves. The game and manual both confirm it. Now you are just grasping at straws.
That's a strawman, Xcano never doubted the legitimacy of EM Waves. He's just telling you what Raiden was actually outrunning.
 
Real Life God-Tier weapons are hardly faster than other weapons.

Metal Gear Verse tech in the 1960s is vastly superior to our own, and our bullets have remained in comparable speed for a century. Just because the God Tier bullets are that fast doesn't mean the mid-tier bullets should be a million times slower.

The Raiden calc which is better than yours.

I'm not buying that calc being a High-End. It's actually a low-end. Tivanenk is even agreeing with me.
 
LordXcano said:
Tivanenk said:
Damn... if Raiden really dodged EM waves before... there really is no argument left for the downgrader side, considering those travel at the/near the speed of light.
Click to expand...
It's MGR in his new body and that calc wasn't accepted as Raiden was outrunning an EM pulse, not the actual EM wave.
Click to expand...
EM pulses are at the very least lightning speed, so... your thread is moot by your own admission.
 
If assuming the scenario was wrong for this Raiden feat. Then the calc is wrong. Since he used the wrong method. Simple right? @Tiv
 
Thebluedash said:
If assuming the scenario was wrong for this Raiden feat. Then the calc is wrong. Since he used the wrong method. Simple right?
Click to expand...
The scenario was correct I would say.

And people are still not adressing Gene, Ocelot and Gray Fox.

Also, the Avatar argument in the beginning was completely false.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Real Life God-Tier weapons are hardly faster than other weapons.
Metal Gear Verse tech in the 1960s is vastly superior to our own, and our bullets have remained in comparable speed for a century. Just because the God Tier bullets are that fast doesn't mean the mid-tier bullets should be a million times slower.

The Raiden calc which is better than yours.

I'm not buying that calc being a High-End. It's actually a low-end. Tivanenk is even agreeing with me.
Click to expand...
The first argument can easily be dismissed by the fact that power differences tend to be vast in fiction. Just look at Raiden compared to Snake.

Why is the calc better than mine? What is your proof?

What is your proof it's a low-end? The RPM of the gun is lower than the gun's muzzle velocity, so logically each subsequent dodge would be slower than the first. And just because Tivanek agrees doesn't make you right?
 
Thebluedash said:
If assuming the scenario was wrong for this Raiden feat. Then the calc is wrong. Since he used the wrong method. Simple right? @Tiv
Click to expand...
None of them came to conclusion about the scenario, though. Either way, even if we take their EM pulse as the scenario... we still get anywhere from lightning to light speed. Case closed.
 
@AMM

His conclusion is backing sketchy calcs that purposefuly downplay, ignore feats, overlook others and grasp at straws.

Xcano's own main point is now proven false by the Raiden calc.
 
Tivanenk said:
Thebluedash said:
If assuming the scenario was wrong for this Raiden feat. Then the calc is wrong. Since he used the wrong method. Simple right? @Tiv
Click to expand...
None of them came to conclusion about the scenario, though. Either way, even if we take their EM pulse as the scenario... we still get anywhere from lightning to light speed. Case closed.
Click to expand...
They do, in the comments it is pointed out that we can see light moving faster than the wave and the wave behaves nothing like light. In addition EM pulses can be much slower than lightning and either way this calc has no effect on Raiden's first body.
 
LordXcano said:
-
Click to expand...
They do, in the comments it is pointed out that we can see light moving faster than the wave and the wave behaves nothing like light. In addition EM pulses can be much slower than lightning and either way this calc has no effect on Raiden's first body.
EM pulses generated by electromagnetic fields (as seen in the video) do not travel slower than lightning. Sorry, it is what it is. I major in this field.
 
Not because you don't like to see low numbers it means downplaying.


"Xcano's own main point is now proven false by the Raiden calc."

Not really, considering that the calc is wrong.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@AMM
His conclusion is backing sketchy calcs that purposefuly downplay, ignore feats, overlook others and grasp at straws.

Xcano's own main point is now proven false by the Raiden calc.
Click to expand...
Matt you have provided no proof towards any of these. I've calculated all the feats you've posted and addressed every single calculation you've posted.
 
Again.

1.0) Ocelot is not faster than Raiden. That is disproven by feats.

1.5) If a character displays an impressive feat but a faster character doesn't have faster feats (Which is not the case), we don't ignor the former character's feat, simply scale the later up from it.

2.0) The Vamp calc is completely wrong and dishonest

3.0) Our real-world's weaponry has remained at comparable speeds for over a century. Comparably, 1960s MG technology is vastly above our own, and in it's 2000s they have bullets that move at 100km/s. Assuming that mid-tier bullets have to be as fast as our own is dishonest.

4.0) No one is adressing Gene's speed.

5.0) No one is adressing Gray Fox's speed.

6.0) Volgin's lightning displays every property of real lightning so it isn't unreasonable to assume it's speed being comparable to it. And even if it wasn't, the downplayed calc is Mach 17, which can be used, and even then chars would be faster thanks to Ocelot's calc.
 
Tivanenk said:
They do, in the comments it is pointed out that we can see light moving faster than the wave and the wave behaves nothing like light. In addition EM pulses can be much slower than lightning and either way this calc has no effect on Raiden's first body.
Click to expand...
EM pulses generated by electromagnetic fields (as seen in the video) do not travel slower than lightning. Sorry, it is what it is. I major in this field.
What I would be more worried about, is the EM pulses having no effect on Raidens body. And by the way, could you provide a source for a EM pulses' speed? Saying you major in x is not a good enough, very fallacious by the way.
 
Reading the comments, people are simply finding the EM Wave feat sketchy because of how higher it seems from everything. Which itself is a fallacy as MGR characters are vastly above everything else in the verse. This logic would mean MFTL+ DBS is wrong because the feats up until then were only FTL or FTL+

"Matt you have provided no proof towards any of these. I've calculated all the feats you've posted and addressed every single calculation you've posted."

Calculations that have been considered downplaying by a Calculation Group member, and very bad adressings if I might add.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Again.
1.0) Ocelot is not faster than Raiden. That is disproven by feats.

1.5) If a character displays an impressive feat but a faster character doesn't have faster feats (Which is not the case), we don't ignor the former character's feat, simply scale the later up from it.

2.0) The Vamp calc is completely wrong and dishonest

3.0) Our real-world's weaponry has remained at comparable speeds for over a century. Comparably, 1960s MG technology is vastly above our own, and in it's 2000s they have bullets that move at 100km/s. Assuming that mid-tier bullets have to be as fast as our own is dishonest.

4.0) No one is adressing Gene's speed.

5.0) No one is adressing Gray Fox's speed.

6.0) Volgin's lightning displays every property of real lightning so it isn't unreasonable to assume it's speed being comparable to it. And even if it wasn't, the downplayed calc is Mach 17, which can be used, and even then chars would be faster thanks to Ocelot's calc.
Click to expand...
1.0 and 1.5) This is true.

2.0) You haven't actually provided any proof against my point about the RPM.

3.0) I'm not "assuming." Otacon directly states the speed of one of the fastest assault rifles to appear in the series.

4.0) That's because he doesn't actually move and there's no indication of any speed feat actually being there, especially since Snake threatens him with a gun afterwards.

5.0) That is because you yourself said it was non-canon.

6.0) Even if it was real lightning it would be an outlier, seeing as every other MGS feat is Sub to Supersonic.
 
@AMM

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/e1-e2-e3.html

"The E1 component is produced when gamma radiation from the nuclear detonation knocks electrons out of the atoms in the upper atmosphere. The electrons begin to travel in a generally downward direction at relativistic speeds (more than 90 percent of the speed of light). In the absence of a magnetic field, this would produce a large pulse of electric current vertically in the upper atmosphere over the entire affected area."

"The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning, although the electromagnetic pulse induced by a very close lightning strike may be considerably larger than the E2 component of a nuclear EMP. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against."
 
"2.0) You haven't actually provided any proof against my point about the RPM.

3.0) I'm not "assuming." Otacon directly states the speed of one of the fastest assault rifles to appear in the series.

4.0) That's because he doesn't actually move and there's no indication of any speed feat actually being there, especially since Snake threatens him with a gun afterwards.

5.0) That is because you yourself said it was non-canon.

6.0) Even if it was real lightning it would be an outlier, seeing as every other MGS feat is Sub to Supersonic."


2.0) Actually, both I and Tivanenk have provided. You are simply not adressing.

3.0) And that proves ****-all. Other verses downplay themselves. Versus Debating goes with death of the author in 90% of the time.

4.0) Again lying and using eye-balling to value feats faster than human perception. He wasn't threatened and also dodged the bullets.

5.0) Doesn't mean they shouldn't be calculated simply because it's a remake. The original game didn't have such feats due to a lack of technology to showcase them.

6.0) It's not an outlier due to Ocelot and Raiden's calcs.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Reading the comments, people are simply finding the EM Wave feat sketchy because of how higher it seems from everything.
Click to expand...
Another strawman argument, people doubt the EM Wave for a plethora of reasons (and not due to how high it is compared to everything else) such as:

Raiden outruns the EM Pulse, not the EM Wave

The EM Pulse/Wave does not affect Raiden (a cyborg) so it's properties should be taken into doubt

The overall scenario being dubious

If you keep up with this I'm going to consider reporting you, you're being extremely unreasonable as of this moment and you don't appear to be stopping.
 
Your entire process involve downplaying and ignoring feats and screaming "outlier" and "inconsistent".

As far as debating goes, that's pretty low, I mean no offense.

You have yet to properly address a single of my points.

@AMM

Logically it didn't affect him due to how advanced his technology is.

Even outrunning an EM Pulse vastly outclasses everything else.

The calc itself was viewed as correct.

You're going to report me because I disagree with what I consider to be blatant downplaying?
 
EMPs are used in MGRR to disable cyborgs and are equally effective on Raiden as they are on every other cyborg in the game.
 
"You have yet to properly address a single of my points."

I addressed all 6 of them.

"ignoring feats"

I calculated every single one of them aside from Gene and the other Null feat as the Gene feat isn't quantifiable (nor is it clear if it's really a feat) and the Null feat is far too erratic, but I could get a low-end for it.
 
I addressed them back. Frankly I'm not convinced.

Is this really why you are not doing Gene's feat? I can ask someone else to do it, then.

Would like to see the results Tivanenk or another Calc member would get for it, the Vamp feat and the Raiden feat.

Fused Posts:

Again.

Tivanenk and I have gone in depth about how horrible the Vamp calc is.

Otacon' statement shouldn't be considered. Authors and Verses downplay themselves all the time. Cronus from Saint Seiya is said to be "barely above the speed of light", to give you an example.[

The entire assessement that Gene wasn't dodging is simply wrong. The calc itself is simple. Just calculate how fast he would have to move to dodge every single bullet while appearing standing still.

Gray Fox's feats still should be calculated for debating and comparising sake.

If I am being rude, or showing anger, forgive me, but I can't lie and say that you are being honest or correct either.
 
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