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Vaporizing a human takes 2.99e+9 Joules, Building level.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade
- Thread starter LordXcano
- Start date
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- Tags
- metal gear
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Found Snake's best Speed Feat.
https://youtu.be/cGLN9oxNUZ0?t=30
Gene is so fast he appears to be standing still as he dodges the bullets from a Metal Gear's turret.
Snake later defeats him in single CQC / Armed Combat.
https://youtu.be/cGLN9oxNUZ0?t=30
Gene is so fast he appears to be standing still as he dodges the bullets from a Metal Gear's turret.
Snake later defeats him in single CQC / Armed Combat.
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Do you have a source of something?WeeklyBattles said:
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Here ya go. Isn't 2.99 Gigajoules Building level+ though?Austrian-Man-Meat said:
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/to-vaporize-a-human-body.21659/
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Not sure if he is just appear to be standing there, that could be just the animation style; Anyway, can't tell the distance between Gene and the Gear, but if really he is dodging between bullets, that gives less than 6 miliseconds to react (assuming that than weapon has 10k rpm cycle fire)Matthew Schroeder said:
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2.99 Gigajoules is apparently atomization, 142 Megajoules is vaporization aka 0.02 tons of tnt.Darkanine said:
"To convert the water content of the average person's body into a gas i.e. vaporize the water in their body, would require 142 million joules - or 142 Megajoules of energy."
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I thin you're misunderstanding, Xcano proposed to use his calculation which downgrades the lightning feat to 1/10th of what it originally was, what I'm pointing out is the fact Ocelot is making more movements during the sequence and and Xcano is not accounting for all of them, his mach ~3 comes from just using the distance his arm moved up to his hip, but ignores Ocelot doing all the subsequent motions (moving his body to shoot his gun at different angels) and the fact he is not adressing this comes off as disingenous to say the least.Austrian-Man-Meat said:
note: I'm not arguing against the lightning being downgraded to mach 20+, I'm arguing against his scaling of Ocelots within his calculation for the reasons already mentioned.
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Edit: https://youtu.be/0_7AkIpl108?t=5m29
During the fight you can actually outpace the lightning with rolls and Snake runs at a similar speed so in all likelyhood Snake and by extension ocelot get direct mach 20+ scaling.
During the fight you can actually outpace the lightning with rolls and Snake runs at a similar speed so in all likelyhood Snake and by extension ocelot get direct mach 20+ scaling.
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- Thread starter
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"I can accept downgrading Metal Gear Solid's speed. But not Metal Gear Rising"
I'll do some more MGR feats later.
"By the way, Old Snake has a Mach 20 feat."
Link?
I will calc these.
The bullets just seem to be missing in this. The pilot even comments on how the gun isn't working properly, and then immediately after Gene allegedly avoids the bullets Snake considers pointing a gun at him to be threatening.
I'll do some more MGR feats later.
"By the way, Old Snake has a Mach 20 feat."
Link?
I will calc these.
The bullets just seem to be missing in this. The pilot even comments on how the gun isn't working properly, and then immediately after Gene allegedly avoids the bullets Snake considers pointing a gun at him to be threatening.
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Gene dodged the bullets, the pilot simply believed to be missing.
Gene was completely non-threatened by Snake pointing his gun. Also, the fact that you can hit Gene with guns in the boss fight is proof that Snake's funs ARE FASTER than regular ones.
Fused Posts:
Both that Olga and Vamp guys?
They are people who Snake has defeated in both gun-fighting and hand-to-hand combat.
The overall result we get from all this is simple: Snake's guns are way faster than normal real-life ones, regardless if they carry the names of real-life weapons.
Gene was completely non-threatened by Snake pointing his gun. Also, the fact that you can hit Gene with guns in the boss fight is proof that Snake's funs ARE FASTER than regular ones.
Fused Posts:
Both that Olga and Vamp guys?
They are people who Snake has defeated in both gun-fighting and hand-to-hand combat.
The overall result we get from all this is simple: Snake's guns are way faster than normal real-life ones, regardless if they carry the names of real-life weapons.
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Reading about this guy Gene, he apparently use an ability called Zero Shift that is like teleportation, so ins't actually his own speed; however, he needs to react to that, so not sure about the cycle fire of that gattling, but assuming 10k rpm as I said above, he has less than 6 ms to react, so that's makes him At least Subsonic+ according to our system.
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Did you people see Volgin casually dodging machine-gun rounds by "dancing" in front of them from a 1 meter distance or so?
Yeah.
This is Snake taking him down on CQC .
Snake backflipping to dodge a bullet .
This is what Gray Fox could do as a teenage Human, he later got turned into a Cyborg Ninja with vastly superior speed and power. Some of the things he can do. These feats are from TTS, but simply ignoring them would be the wrong approach I believe.
Finally, we have Metal Gear REX. It contains some nifty little things, as you can see in this descriptio . It's most impressive weapon is it's railgun
From the Metal Gear wikia:
"REX's most fearsome weapon, however, was the magnetic rail gun capable of delivering an untraceable nuclear warhead anywhere in the world, without the propellant trail or launch flare that gives away the launch position of a traditional ballistic missile. By perfecting the process of electromagnetic acceleration, the rail gun is able to fire a projectile with a muzzle velocity of over 100 kilometers per second. It was apparently originally going to be used, as part of SDI, to shoot down enemy ICBMs outside the atmosphere."
The MGS Universe has technology for 100 km/s bullets. Let THAT sink in.
So no, scaling Ocelot's gun to Volgin's lightning isn't that far-fetched.
Yeah.
This is Snake taking him down on CQC .
Snake backflipping to dodge a bullet .
This is what Gray Fox could do as a teenage Human, he later got turned into a Cyborg Ninja with vastly superior speed and power. Some of the things he can do. These feats are from TTS, but simply ignoring them would be the wrong approach I believe.
Finally, we have Metal Gear REX. It contains some nifty little things, as you can see in this descriptio . It's most impressive weapon is it's railgun
From the Metal Gear wikia:
"REX's most fearsome weapon, however, was the magnetic rail gun capable of delivering an untraceable nuclear warhead anywhere in the world, without the propellant trail or launch flare that gives away the launch position of a traditional ballistic missile. By perfecting the process of electromagnetic acceleration, the rail gun is able to fire a projectile with a muzzle velocity of over 100 kilometers per second. It was apparently originally going to be used, as part of SDI, to shoot down enemy ICBMs outside the atmosphere."
The MGS Universe has technology for 100 km/s bullets. Let THAT sink in.
So no, scaling Ocelot's gun to Volgin's lightning isn't that far-fetched.
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- Thread starter
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"The overall result we get from all this is simple: Snake's guns are way faster than normal real-life ones, regardless if they carry the names of real-life weapons."
That isn't how it works. Getting hit by bullets is an anti-feat, not a feat for the gun. Not to mention at the end of MGS2 Otacon states the P90 fires 715 m/s bullets, so there is in-universe confirmation that the guns are comparable to their real-world speeds.
"The MGS Universe has technology for 100 km/s bullets. Let THAT sink in."
Yes, 100 km/s bullets for the brand new extremely powerful non-handheld technology that the entire game is based around.
"This is what Gray Fox could do as a teenage Human, he later got turned into a Cyborg Ninja with vastly superior speed and power."
I already calculated the first one and got Transonic.
That isn't how it works. Getting hit by bullets is an anti-feat, not a feat for the gun. Not to mention at the end of MGS2 Otacon states the P90 fires 715 m/s bullets, so there is in-universe confirmation that the guns are comparable to their real-world speeds.
"The MGS Universe has technology for 100 km/s bullets. Let THAT sink in."
Yes, 100 km/s bullets for the brand new extremely powerful non-handheld technology that the entire game is based around.
"This is what Gray Fox could do as a teenage Human, he later got turned into a Cyborg Ninja with vastly superior speed and power."
I already calculated the first one and got Transonic.
- static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3449790-snake+feat+speed+vs+ocelot.png
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"Gene dodged the bullets, the pilot simply believed to be missing."
Proof? "Gene was completely non-threatened by Snake pointing his gun."
No. In fact he was so threatened by Snake pointing a gun at him he had to bring out his trump card to get out of the situation.
"Also, the fact that you can hit Gene with guns in the boss fight is proof that Snake's funs ARE FASTER than regular ones."
No, the fact you can hit Gene with guns means that Gene isn't bullet-timing.
Proof? "Gene was completely non-threatened by Snake pointing his gun."
No. In fact he was so threatened by Snake pointing a gun at him he had to bring out his trump card to get out of the situation.
"Also, the fact that you can hit Gene with guns in the boss fight is proof that Snake's funs ARE FASTER than regular ones."
No, the fact you can hit Gene with guns means that Gene isn't bullet-timing.
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100km/s bullets which Snake can dodge in gameplay.
Are you deliberatedly ignoring all feats of people dodging or deflecting bullets while appearing almost standing still?
Using guns isn't an anti-feat in this franchise. They're tech is far more advanced tha real world tech.
And I don't trust any of your calculations here. Would prefer that someone without the clear intent of downplaying Metal Gear do them.
Are you deliberatedly ignoring all feats of people dodging or deflecting bullets while appearing almost standing still?
Using guns isn't an anti-feat in this franchise. They're tech is far more advanced tha real world tech.
And I don't trust any of your calculations here. Would prefer that someone without the clear intent of downplaying Metal Gear do them.
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People dodge bullets only to be hit by Snake's minutes later. This happens in every single game. At one point you gotta consider the logical alternative: That Snake's weaponry is simply superior to real world.
Hell, his Machine Guns can harm Metal Gears, that alone proves that they are not standard 9-B bullets.
Hell, his Machine Guns can harm Metal Gears, that alone proves that they are not standard 9-B bullets.
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- Thread starter
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"100km/s bullets which Snake can dodge in gameplay."
Link?
"Are you deliberatedly ignoring all feats of people dodging or deflecting bullets while appearing almost standing still?"
No. In fact I'm calculating them. All of them. But on the other hand guns are still considered a threat and the characters are tagged by them all the time.
"Using guns isn't an anti-feat in this franchise. They're tech is far more advanced tha real world tech."
Okay. But you're gonna need a statement of the bullets being faster, because the only statement we have on bullet speed says it's as fast as real world ones.
"And I don't trust any of your calculations here. Would prefer that someone without the clear intent of downplaying Metal Gear do them."
My intention doesn't matter, numbers don't lie.
Link?
"Are you deliberatedly ignoring all feats of people dodging or deflecting bullets while appearing almost standing still?"
No. In fact I'm calculating them. All of them. But on the other hand guns are still considered a threat and the characters are tagged by them all the time.
"Using guns isn't an anti-feat in this franchise. They're tech is far more advanced tha real world tech."
Okay. But you're gonna need a statement of the bullets being faster, because the only statement we have on bullet speed says it's as fast as real world ones.
"And I don't trust any of your calculations here. Would prefer that someone without the clear intent of downplaying Metal Gear do them."
My intention doesn't matter, numbers don't lie.
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Gene can ******* teleport, can casually blitz Supersonic+ beings, and that is a clear instance of casual bullet-dodging. He wasn't threatened by Snake's gun-point, actually watch the cutscenes.LordXcano said:
What logic would it make for the pilot to simply miss every single bullet? Explain to me. Gene isn't a telekinetic. The pilot isn't incompetent.
By interpreting it that way, you turn a demonstration of a character's superhuman prowess into a character not dying simply because a pilot is being a moron.
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Looking for these games weapons, seems like that most of then possesses real-life muzzle speed (aside the Rail Gun), being the faster (that I have found) the Rex rotatori cannon (Mach 2.9). I could notice that Rail Gun muzzle speed as true, but not remember (or known) about someone that dodged it, it also some kind of nuke, so I doubt that the REX would shoot that at only 5 - 10 meters...
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This all the way, I agree with Xcano.LordXcano said:
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Numbers can lie if the intent of the person calculating is clear.
What's next? Gonna downgrad Snake to 9-B because he uses guns, rather than assuming he has 8-C Tier guns?
"No. In fact I'm calculating them. All of them. But on the other hand guns are still considered a threat and the characters are tagged by them all the time."
The same characters who in other cutscenes casually dodge fire from dozens of mooks or slice bullets in half or deflect them. And then Snake proceeds to beat them in hand-to-hand / gunfights. The result is always the same. Snake is capable of defeating superhumans over and over and over. This isn't an anti-feat. It's a feat.
Metal Gear has Mechs, Psychokinetics, Cyborg Ninjas, Laser-Guns, Weather Controlling Ghosts, Chamaleon people, Hovering Plataform Tech in 1964, and all that is believable, but then assuming that the "Real world" weapons they use aren't also upgraded to fit the rest of the setting is too much?
Again, if 100km/s bullets is cutting edge in MGS1, I don't see why their regular weapons would be so abismally lower. Our real-world bullets have been around Supersonic+ for decades, and the MGS world was starting to develop Metal Gears in 1964.
What's next? Gonna downgrad Snake to 9-B because he uses guns, rather than assuming he has 8-C Tier guns?
"No. In fact I'm calculating them. All of them. But on the other hand guns are still considered a threat and the characters are tagged by them all the time."
The same characters who in other cutscenes casually dodge fire from dozens of mooks or slice bullets in half or deflect them. And then Snake proceeds to beat them in hand-to-hand / gunfights. The result is always the same. Snake is capable of defeating superhumans over and over and over. This isn't an anti-feat. It's a feat.
Metal Gear has Mechs, Psychokinetics, Cyborg Ninjas, Laser-Guns, Weather Controlling Ghosts, Chamaleon people, Hovering Plataform Tech in 1964, and all that is believable, but then assuming that the "Real world" weapons they use aren't also upgraded to fit the rest of the setting is too much?
Again, if 100km/s bullets is cutting edge in MGS1, I don't see why their regular weapons would be so abismally lower. Our real-world bullets have been around Supersonic+ for decades, and the MGS world was starting to develop Metal Gears in 1964.
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That's not Zero-Shift. Zero-Shift doesn't look like that.Antoniofer said:
Fused Posts:
https://youtu.be/RAZ8lI5ge00?t=696
This is Zero-Shift. He glows a yellow energy aura and dashes towards the opponent and needs to charge for it.
That was his casual speed.
Here's Snake dodging REX's Railgun bullets.
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- Thread starter
- #63
"Numbers can lie if the intent of the person calculating is clear."
Okay. Well all the numbers are there. So prove the calc wrong.
"What's next? Gonna downgrad Snake to 9-B because he uses guns, rather than assuming he has 8-C Tier guns?"
Slippery slope.
"The same characters who in other cutscenes casually dodge fire from dozens of mooks or slice bullets in half or deflect them. And then Snake proceeds to beat them in hand-to-hand / gunfights. The result is always the same. Snake is capable of defeating superhumans over and over and over. This isn't an anti-feat. It's a feat."
Matt. If Goku fights a bunch of people who dodged light, and then during those fights they get tagged by light that is not a feat to say that light in DBZ moves faster than light. That is an anti-feat for the character.
"Again, if 100km/s bullets is cutting edge in MGS1, I don't see why their regular weapons would be so abismally lower."
Ask Otacon. He's the one who said the P9 is 715 m/s, the same as its real-world speed.
Calculated 2 more of the linked feats and added them to the OP.
Okay. Well all the numbers are there. So prove the calc wrong.
"What's next? Gonna downgrad Snake to 9-B because he uses guns, rather than assuming he has 8-C Tier guns?"
Slippery slope.
"The same characters who in other cutscenes casually dodge fire from dozens of mooks or slice bullets in half or deflect them. And then Snake proceeds to beat them in hand-to-hand / gunfights. The result is always the same. Snake is capable of defeating superhumans over and over and over. This isn't an anti-feat. It's a feat."
Matt. If Goku fights a bunch of people who dodged light, and then during those fights they get tagged by light that is not a feat to say that light in DBZ moves faster than light. That is an anti-feat for the character.
"Again, if 100km/s bullets is cutting edge in MGS1, I don't see why their regular weapons would be so abismally lower."
Ask Otacon. He's the one who said the P9 is 715 m/s, the same as its real-world speed.
Calculated 2 more of the linked feats and added them to the OP.
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That Vamp calc is straight-up horrible.
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@Matt it's alright you are trying to defend MGR and MGS by do you think you can tone it down, your coming off very aggressive with your texts.
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"Matt. If Goku fights a bunch of people who dodged light, and then during those fights they get tagged by light that is not a feat to say that light in DBZ moves faster than light. That is an anti-feat for the character."
Does DBZ have anything to do with this?
Light doesn't move faster than life but fictional bullets can move faster than real bullets.
Does DBZ have anything to do with this?
Light doesn't move faster than life but fictional bullets can move faster than real bullets.
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Okay. I may calm down, but how should I respond to one of the most dishonest and intentionally downplaying calculations I've ever seen in my entire life?Grudgeman1706 said:
One who assumes a super-soldier conditioned to be a perfect killer from infancy and who wielded an AK-47 with proficiency at age 6 to have missed an entire round from point-blank?
Tell me.
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"Light doesn't move faster than life but fictional bullets can move faster than real bullets."
Okay. But so far the only statement about bullet speed in the entire franchise is equal to that of a real-life muzzle velocity, and characters can be tagged by that gun. In fact in this scene you linked as a speed feat Raiden has to be saved specifically because guns are pointed at him.
Okay. But so far the only statement about bullet speed in the entire franchise is equal to that of a real-life muzzle velocity, and characters can be tagged by that gun. In fact in this scene you linked as a speed feat Raiden has to be saved specifically because guns are pointed at him.
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Why assume that? Because the scene didn't take the time to show every bullet in slow-motion?
Because it looks like he's missing, but that is actually the result of Volgin's speed?
By assuming that, Xcano once again turns a scene meant to show the velocity of a character into a protagonist being an incompetent moron.
Is this the sort of unbiased-calcs that are being accepted?
Because it looks like he's missing, but that is actually the result of Volgin's speed?
By assuming that, Xcano once again turns a scene meant to show the velocity of a character into a protagonist being an incompetent moron.
Is this the sort of unbiased-calcs that are being accepted?
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@Matt just remain calm and win with logic. You know that being aggressive in a argument makes you look bad and people will not sway to your opinion.
You can argue with xcano all you want, just be calm and polite about it. A rational and calm mind wins any argument.
You can argue with xcano all you want, just be calm and polite about it. A rational and calm mind wins any argument.
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I am being rational.
Assuming that one of the greatest soldiers in the world simply missed an entire machine-gun round at point blank because it looks like it, rather than assuming it looks like it because Vamp dodged all the bullets, is not rational.
If my tone is incorrect, or rude, I can concess and be calmer.
But if you are just going to be responding to my tone, like people have started to be doing, rather than respond to my argument, than you are also not rational.
No one has brought up all the Gray Fox feats, the Gene feat after I showed that it is not Zero-Shift, or how dishonest the Vamp calc is.
Assuming that one of the greatest soldiers in the world simply missed an entire machine-gun round at point blank because it looks like it, rather than assuming it looks like it because Vamp dodged all the bullets, is not rational.
If my tone is incorrect, or rude, I can concess and be calmer.
But if you are just going to be responding to my tone, like people have started to be doing, rather than respond to my argument, than you are also not rational.
No one has brought up all the Gray Fox feats, the Gene feat after I showed that it is not Zero-Shift, or how dishonest the Vamp calc is.
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Well as adminstrators and discussion moderators, it is our job to not only maintain a logical and accurate community but a civil and respectful one as well.Matthew Schroeder said:
If we see someone, especially a fellow staff member, acting in a hostile manner, of course we are going to comment on it. It is not irrational for us to be doing our jobs. But if you're going to calm down like you've said, then thank you and hopefully we can get back on topic.
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@Ryu
Okay, thank you.
Can we please discuss how dishonest and unvalid the Vamp calc is?
Okay, thank you.
Can we please discuss how dishonest and unvalid the Vamp calc is?
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So far, I have yet to see any proof whatsoever that the lightning isn't real. And since Ocelot's revolver is part of his arsenal, this means that it can't be restricted to normal bullet speed either, as a character's weaponry does not have such limits.
In the end, I can only see this being a downplay.
In the end, I can only see this being a downplay.
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@Tivanenk
I wonder what results you would get from calculating certain feats.
Can you please do your version of the Vamp feat?
And there hasn't been a single word about all of Gray Fox's feats.
I wonder what results you would get from calculating certain feats.
Can you please do your version of the Vamp feat?
And there hasn't been a single word about all of Gray Fox's feats.
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The real problem is Ocelot performing feats that outclass Raiden's significantly, the calculation having real lightning would only make it more anomalous.Tivanenk said:
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Do you people want me to contact Vivi and ask him about the Mach 1700 feat?
Fused Posts:
Ocelot is only outclassing Raiden if we accept Raiden's revised downplayed calculation.
Not if we follow with the former calculations.
Fused Posts:
Ocelot is only outclassing Raiden if we accept Raiden's revised downplayed calculation.
Not if we follow with the former calculations.
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The real problem is Ocelot performing feats that outclass Raiden's significantly, the calculation having real lightning would only make it more anomalous.Austrian-Man-Meat said:
It doesn't matter. The feats are based entirely on their own. The only time we can classify a feat as an outlier is if it's dubious in nature or contradicted by other feats. Both of these do not apply in this scenario.
For instance, Jotaro Kujo gets an MCB+ feat from quite a dubious and highly outlier-ish feat on this site, yet it still gets accepted. This one is even less dubious from what I know. And showing slower speed feats does not contradict a higher speed feat.
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Speaking of Jotaro.
He got reduced to bleeding by a group of regular people in one episode. Does that make him 9-C?
Hell, speaking in general.
Zack Fair died to bullets and Sephiroth needed a meteor to destroy the Earth. Does that downgrade them?
Thor and Hulk are almost always written as Tier 8 and 7 in the comics. Do we turn a blind eye to their Tier 5 and 4 feats?
In the manga Vegeta struggled with 1000 tons, and Goku Black got hit by Mai's enhanced bullet. Do we downplay them?
The entire line of thought in this thread involves finding that one feat is considerably higher than others, and then saying that it can't be used, even when the cutscene slows down to show Ocelot countering the lightning, which displays every single property of real one, with his bullets.
Couple that with massive downplay in calculations (The Raiden and Vamp ones).
He got reduced to bleeding by a group of regular people in one episode. Does that make him 9-C?
Hell, speaking in general.
Zack Fair died to bullets and Sephiroth needed a meteor to destroy the Earth. Does that downgrade them?
Thor and Hulk are almost always written as Tier 8 and 7 in the comics. Do we turn a blind eye to their Tier 5 and 4 feats?
In the manga Vegeta struggled with 1000 tons, and Goku Black got hit by Mai's enhanced bullet. Do we downplay them?
The entire line of thought in this thread involves finding that one feat is considerably higher than others, and then saying that it can't be used, even when the cutscene slows down to show Ocelot countering the lightning, which displays every single property of real one, with his bullets.
Couple that with massive downplay in calculations (The Raiden and Vamp ones).
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That's not why I find it anomalous, I find it anomalous due to a significantly weaker character than Raiden pulling off a faster feat than he does. At least with Jotaro he's stated multiple times to have the "strongest stand" and therefore it makes sense that his stand would have the higher showings of power compared to the rest of the cast.Tivanenk said:
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