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Metal Gear Solid Speed Downgrade

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"Is this really why you are not doing Gene's feat? I can ask someone else to do it, then."

Matt you still haven't actually provided any proof at all that he's actually doing anything. You can't calc it because he isn't even moving.

"Would like to see the results Tivanenk or another Calc member would get for it, the Vamp feat and the Raiden feat."

Even doubling or tripling the Vamp feat (complete high-end as he barely moves) would still be Subsonic and tripling the Raiden feat would still only be Mach 8.1
 
The burden of proof is on you that Gene isn't dodging. He appears to not be moving (Same with Vamp) under our human eyes. That's not rocket science. It's as simple as it gets.

You're reminding me of a Dragon Ball downplayer who said the characters were just Subsonic cause they could have conversations while fighting.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The burden of proof is on you that Gene isn't dodging. He appears to not be moving (Same with Vamp) under our human eyes. That's not rocket science. It's as simple as it gets.
You're reminding me of a Dragon Ball downplayer who said the characters were just Subsonic cause they could have conversations while fighting.
Click to expand...
No. Vamp is moving. That's how I did the feat. Since he appears to not be moving, is threatened by a gun in the same scene, and the pilot comments on how the gun isn't working right the burden of proof is on you to prove he is dodging.

If a character shoots an arrow at another character and the arrow hits 20 cm away from its target, why would you assume the target dodged?
 
No offense, but that is among the worst logic I've ever seen under my entire story of Vs Debating.

If you can't do it, someone else will, fine.


Gene doesn't have TK, doesn't have phasing, and the pilot isn't incompetent.

He dodged every bullet. That's basic.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
No offense, but that is among the worst logic I've ever seen under my entire story of Vs Debating.
If you can't do it, someone else will, fine.
Click to expand...
If you want I can pull out each individual frame and objectively prove every single bullet missed Gene. I know this because I watched the scene frame-by-frame.
 
"If a character shoots an arrow at another character and the arrow hits 20 cm away from its target, why would you assume the target dodged?"

... What?

That's not comparable.

The pilot hit every target except for him. Gene's only powers are super strength and super speed. He dodged all of them. He was completely unphazed by Snake pointing the gun at him.

Explain to me how or why would the pilot miss? How or why would the turret not work?
 
Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops Cutscenes part 6
Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops Cutscenes part 6

Happens at 0:30. You people be the judge if Gene dodged or the guy missed.
 
It's meant to show how fast Gene is.

If you think he missed

Explain how and why

How did a trained pilot miss a standing target.

Why was Gene so calm if he couldn't dodge it.

What sense does it make story-wise to show him dodging.
 
"Explain to me how or why would the pilot miss? How or why would the turret not work?"

He even says right afterwards that he missed and immediately after that his gun jams with heavy hints of sabotage by one of Gene's people.
 
LordXcano said:
"Explain to me how or why would the pilot miss? How or why would the turret not work?"He even says right afterwards that he missed and immediately after that his gun jams with heavy hints of sabotage by one of Gene's people.
Click to expand...
There was no sabotage going on in the plot.


I'm serious here. I played these games. None of Gene's man sabotaged that weapon.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
A random mook thinking his bullets are missing as he shoots the fastest character in the series so far isn't an argument.
Click to expand...
Matt you asked for consensus on him dodging or missing and 4 people (3 excluding me) interpreted the scene as the pilot missing.
 
Can anyone show where it suggests that the gun was sabotaged?

Because otherwise, it looks like he really was too fast, as Matt has said, it makes no sense for him to simply miss and what we see is likely part of the animation style.

Although I don't think its a calculable feat sadly.
 
These revisions seem reasonable to me; the arguments provided on one side are above those saying that Mach 1700 is fine. So... basically, for reasons stated above, I'm for this downgrade.
 
For what it's worth, The Everlasting also agrees it's dodging:

[00:36:28] The Everlasting: The thread is too long for me to load without lag, but I do agree that he was dodging.
 
Matt, instead of constantly double and triple and quadruple posting, please just edit your latest post. You're clogging the thread, which is probably the reason why it takes so long to load for some people. You're also being extremely disrespectful. As a staff member, you're supposed to be calm, logical, and respectable; your behavior will set a poor example for other users, in addition to generally being extremely disruptive regardless of whether or not you're correct.

Regardless of whether or not the feat is legitimate or not, it can't really be calced and therefore we couldn't really give them a concrete rating for this. Anyways, the Relativistic feat is a huge outlier (even if legitimate) in a verse that only has MHS+ feats at best, but those definitely seem to be questionable too. And while it seems weird for Volgin's lightning to be slower than the real deal, that doesn't mean MHS speeds for everyone is consistent, either.
 
MGS downgrades seem to make sense so I agree to downgrading the snakes to mach ~17

I'm against MGR downgrades until you re-calculate the other missile feat and prove beyond a shadow of doubt it isn't MHS+
 
You are right that I've been rude and stressed. Forgive me. Won't repeat itself.

I still disagree with practically everythin Xcano is saying, but you guys are right...

For what is worth, deleted a lot of my posts and fused a lot of them too.

@AguilaR101

This is basically how I feel in general.

Even if I'd prefer otherwise, downgrading MGS to Supersonic+ to Mach 17 isn't a big loss.

But I find only Hypersonic MGR to be ridiculous.
 
AguilaR101 said:
MGS downgrades seem to make sense so I agree to downgrading the snakes to mach ~17
I'm against MGR downgrades until you re-calculate the other missile feat and prove beyond a shadow of doubt it isn't MHS+
Click to expand...

I will. In addition, if anyone can find me a good cutscene of Zandatsu/Blade Mode being used while bullets are in the air (or any good feats for those) I'll be happy to calc them.

I also calculated a high-end for Gene's feat and added it into the OP.
 
I just looked at most of these calcs and they pretty much assume that Ocelot's muzzle velocity is regular joe schmo velocity. You used the hypothesis to support the evidence, not the other way around. Makes me be ashamed to know one of the rules of calcing being broken.
 
@Tivanenk

A- Don't be so smug, (no offence, just seems very, well, rude)

B- Does this increase of decrease the results of the calcs and by how much?
 
Tivanenk said:
I just looked at most of these calcs and they pretty much assume that Ocelot's muzzle velocity is regular joe schmo velocity. You used the hypothesis to support the evidence, not the other way around. Makes me be ashamed to know one of the rules of calcing being broken.
Click to expand...
Ummm assuming bullet speed is allowed here and is common practice...?


EX: Hey the gun kinda looks like a tommy gun. Since, we can't get the speed by other means. Lets just assume it's the speed of a tommy gun.
 
Quite a lot actually. He's trying to prove that humans in the MGS series are only subsonic - hypersonic. Now, to prove this, you need to prove that the gun speed is lower. He proves this by... assuming that the gun speed is lower. There is no evidence given in any single one of his calcs that the muzzle velocity should be slower than what was calculated in previous calcs.

Essentially, he's building this narrative on a false assumption.
 
What muzzle velocity would you even use otherwise?
 
Promestein said:
What muzzle velocity would you even use otherwise?
Click to expand...
Usually, you would assume standard muzzle velocity if and only if external evidence is missing. However, if there are faster objects or phenomena being displayed and the muzzle velocity MATCHES that, then you have to scale the muzzle velocity based off that assumption, not a standard one (since a standard one doesn't take into account supernatural or superhuman phenomena).
 
So to avoid the fallacy of standard speed, we have to assume phenomena is legit?....

That....

Doesn't sound right? Especially when its based on a real gun with real speeds...
 
SomebodyData said:
Actually we have to use standard bullet speed so we don't calc stack....
Click to expand...
Not quite actually. For instance, there is a character in Trinity Seven who regularly uses modern day bullets to tag light speed characters. Does that mean those guns have standard muzzle velocity? No. They scale to that character's speed.
 
Ah I see...

But I'm pretty sure this is different in calcs, as we can't use calced speed to find speed.
 
No, that's how things work here. Yes, of course the guns move at that speed. But when we calc we can't assume the gun is that speed. That is the definition of calc stacking.

EX -

Bass is hypersonic.

This bullet is faster than him.

Someone dodges it.

If I assume the bullet was hypersonic here for the calc. It wouldn't be accepted.
 
SomebodyData said:
Ah I see...
But I'm pretty sure this is different in calcs, as we can't use calced speed to find speed.
Click to expand...
True. But this alone debunks practically all of the calcs except for the railgun one.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blo...r-amp-some-blade-and-ripper-mode-stuff.33760/
Frankly I see nothing wrong with this calc.

Someone also needs to calc Raiden using a giant building sized blade on Ripper Mode.
Click to expand...
It used the same assumptions as the original Mach 1700 calc, which as I said earlier was completely made up.

@Tivanek I've provided 3 examples of the lightning displaying sub-lightning speed and 1 example of bullets in-universe being stated to be real world speed. Even if, as said before, the lightning was legit speed it would be a definite outlier as every single other feat is Sub to Hypersonic.
 
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